---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/07/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:50 AM - Re: LEARN! (flyv35b) 2. 07:09 AM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (flyv35b) 3. 07:56 AM - Re: LEARN! (James Courtney) 4. 02:05 PM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (Gary Vogt) 5. 04:47 PM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (flyv35b) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:54 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Jamey, I didn't know you had a Porsche tractor. What year was it manufactured? Why don't you buy a car? A 356? Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: James Courtney To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:26 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I still have the valve head in my desk drawer beside me. Not sure I=99d call it intact but about 2/3 of it are hereJ The issue occurred over Sausalito just after dark (ugh) on my way back from looking at the Bonanza I ended up buying. Apparently I offended my Tiger. The engine was at right around 1000 hours which is when the exhaust valve issues seem to show up. Similarly on my Porsche-Diesel tractor when we rebuilt the engine here=99s what we saw on the head: http://tinyurl.com/29na9nw Little fellow swallowed a nut from the intake at some pointJ Those went back on with lock washers and loc-tite! Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:08 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I had a customer with the same experience over San Francisco bay. He made it to San Rafael. When I pulled the cylinder, the valve head was intact in the cylinder. Lots of dents on the piston. We opted to replace just that cylinder and get it to Auburn. Then, all new ported and polished cylinders. You're lucky. You might have taken off and had that chunk bounce around in a few other cylinders as well. I had a turbo Corvair that ingested a washer. It chewed up the turbo that then deposited pieces all though the engine. What a mess. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: FLYaDIVE To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:06:00 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Hello Gang and Guru's: I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's life. I was flying a friend=99s plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the pattern. I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very Rough, Baulked and Kicked. Landed without additional incident. Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1. Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air rushing out of the exhaust. Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found three in the exhaust pipe. Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and buttons. BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve. Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND! Installed the NEW cylinder. Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL. Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.] Did a Run-Up all was WELL. DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS? I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just before take off. RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy. WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! ! Taxied back. Pulled the spark plug. And did a Compression check. Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80. LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face. Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ... There was a piece of Valve still in the system. BUT WAIT! YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1 Cylinder INTAKE Spider. I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS! I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times. I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A NEW CYLINDER. OUCH! Not happy with my previous inspection =93 I am my own worst critic - I pulled off ALL the cylinders. Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk of valve about 3/8" across. It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection. So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES? Guess what I am going to do from now on! And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too! Barry 'Always a student' =98A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man learns from the mistakes of others.' I made this one =93 You Learn! http://www.ma" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww w.matronics.com/co=================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 11:35:00 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:52 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Also, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result in 20 more HP. As I recall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engine (experimental) rates the HP less that 200. Seems to me the angle valve IO-360 develops more power due to 3 things: a better induction system and combustion chamber (it flows more air), higher CR and possibly fuel injection. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: James Courtney To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:05 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Would it really make more heat though? You've more efficiently converting fuel and oxygen to mechanical energy with the higher compression ratio. This said you're also incurring higher internal pressures which tends to transfer more heat to the cylinder and head. I wonder what the actual behavior is? Probably a bit more heat as you say since more energy is being extracted even if greater efficiency is at play. Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:24 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve From a horsepower point-of-view, the angle valve head flows better. The valves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really isn't that much. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio. If the parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make 200 hp also. The biggest difference is the angle valve head had better cooling fins. Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepower) it can shed the heat better. If you consider weight, the parallel valve is better hp/lb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Bruce Smith To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 23:37:00 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:29 AM PST US From: "James Courtney" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Two tractors actually (restored 1958 Junior 108L and 1961 Super 329 under construction). My in-laws have the cars including 356s. Being a good Midwestern boy I have a weakness for old red tractorsJ How=99s your 356 coming? Amazing how similar the engines are to aircraft engines. Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flyv35b Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 6:50 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Jamey, I didn't know you had a Porsche tractor. What year was it manufactured? Why don't you buy a car? A 356? Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: James Courtney Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:26 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I still have the valve head in my desk drawer beside me. Not sure I=99d call it intact but about 2/3 of it are hereJ The issue occurred over Sausalito just after dark (ugh) on my way back from looking at the Bonanza I ended up buying. Apparently I offended my Tiger. The engine was at right around 1000 hours which is when the exhaust valve issues seem to show up. Similarly on my Porsche-Diesel tractor when we rebuilt the engine here=99s what we saw on the head: http://tinyurl.com/29na9nw Little fellow swallowed a nut from the intake at some pointJ Those went back on with lock washers and loc-tite! Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 8:08 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! I had a customer with the same experience over San Francisco bay. He made it to San Rafael. When I pulled the cylinder, the valve head was intact in the cylinder. Lots of dents on the piston. We opted to replace just that cylinder and get it to Auburn. Then, all new ported and polished cylinders. You're lucky. You might have taken off and had that chunk bounce around in a few other cylinders as well. I had a turbo Corvair that ingested a washer. It chewed up the turbo that then deposited pieces all though the engine. What a mess. Gary _____ From: FLYaDIVE Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 3:06:00 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: LEARN! Hello Gang and Guru's: I want to extent a learning situation that just happened to me in hopes of saving someone out there time, money and maybe some one's life. I was flying a friend=99s plane, AA5B, and we just got back to the pattern. I announced the 45 and just as I did the engine began to run Very Rough, Baulked and Kicked. Landed without additional incident. Shut down and pulled the prop through - NO COMPRESSION on #1. Next day did a compression check - Confirmed - ZERO COMPRESSION - Air rushing out of the exhaust. Pulled the cylinder - Exhaust valve was missing BIG PIECES - Found three in the exhaust pipe. Ordered a NEW cylinder - piston, rings, wrist pin, rocker pin and buttons. BEFORE installing the New cylinder I inspected the INTAKE PIPE and SUMP SPIDER for any more broken parts of the valve. Inspected with a light - my fingers and magnet. NONE FOUND! Installed the NEW cylinder. Did a short time start up at low RPM and all was WELL. Taxied to the runway [1000 RPM MAX.] Did a Run-Up all was WELL. DO YOU KNOW WHERE I AM GOING WITH THIS? I have a habit to do a Run-Up To Full Throttle ON the runway just before take off. RPM dropped from 1800 down to 1500. AND the engine Baulked Heavy. WE AIN'T GOING NO WHERE! ! ! Taxied back. Pulled the spark plug. And did a Compression check. Cyl #1 (The New one) was 60/80. LQQKed inside and the piston had dings all over the face. Those out there with experience KNOW what happened ... There was a piece of Valve still in the system. BUT WAIT! YES, I did a Visual - Physical - and - Magnetic Inspection of the #1 Cylinder INTAKE Spider. I think I was more PISSED than the customer. I KNOW I WAS! I kicked myself in the ass a few dozen times. I APOLOGIZED to the customer and PROMISED TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS OF A NEW CYLINDER. OUCH! Not happy with my previous inspection =93 I am my own worst critic - I pulled off ALL the cylinders. Upon pulling of Cyl #3--- Guess what fell out of the INTAKE ... a hunk of valve about 3/8" across. It TOTALLY ELUDED my inspection. So, what do you do ... Do you do the STANDARD - Pull & Inspect as per above or do you OPEN ALL the INTAKES? Guess what I am going to do from now on! And in addition I am going to pull the Carb too! Barry 'Always a student' =98A smart man learns from his mistakes - An intelligent man learns from the mistakes of others.' I made this one =93 You Learn! http://www.ma " href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww w.matronics.com/co=================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 11:35:00 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 11:36:00 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:22 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Ken (Lycon) told me the 9:1 pistons would make 200 pretty easily. The bett er =0Aflowing heads on the angle valve definitely helps.=0A=0AI did a crank ing pressure test on a Tiger with new LyCon ported and polished =0Acylinder s. The cranking pressure was 135-137 on 1, 3, 4. On #2, it was 149. =0A G o figure.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: flyv35b =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, July 7, 2010 7:09:48 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Paralle l Valve=0A=0A =0AAlso, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result in 20 more HP. As I =0Arecall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engi ne (experimental) rates the =0AHP less that 200. Seems to me the angle va lve IO-360 develops more power due =0Ato 3 things: a better induction syste m and combustion chamber (it flows more =0Aair), higher CR and possibly fu el injection.=0A =0ACliff=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: James Courtney =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, June 28 , 2010 11:05 PM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Paral lel Valve=0A>=0A>=0A>Would it really make more heat though? You =99ve more efficiently converting =0A>fuel and oxygen to mechanical ener gy with the higher compression ratio. This =0A>said you=99re also incurring higher internal pressures which tends to transfer =0A>more he at to the cylinder and head. I wonder what the actual behavior is? =0A >Probably a bit more heat as you say since more energy is being extracte d even =0A>if greater efficiency is at play.=0A> =0A>Jamey=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-t eamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Mo nday, June 28, 2010 7:24 PM=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Subjec t: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A> =0A>From a h orsepower point-of-view, the angle valve head flows better. The =0A>val ves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really isn't =0A>that much. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio. If the =0A>parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make 200 hp also. =0A> =0A>The biggest difference is the angle valve head had b etter cooling fins. =0A> Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepower) i t can shed the heat better.=0A> =0A>If you consider weight, the parallel valve is better hp/lb. =0A> =0A>=0A________________________________=0A =0A>From:Bruce Smith =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matron ics.com=0A>Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM=0A>Subject: TeamGrumman-L ist: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A>http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http: //www.matronics.com/contribution=0A> =0A>No virus found in this incomin g message.=0A>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=0A>23:37:00=0A> =0A>href="htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forum s.matronics.com=0A> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://w ======================== =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:14 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Maybe (or probably) on Lycon's dyno. But we both know that their dyno is not truly representative of the real world power output as installed in a Grumman with it's stock exhaust system, alternator and vacuum pump, which Lycon does not install on their test dyno installation. Their measured power figures are higher than you will see in the airframe. Of course the PF exhaust system does improve the power output over a stock system. My point was that even with 9.0 CR the rated power from ECI, which makes a complete experimental engine, is less than 200 hp. In fact it's rated at 189 hp with a carb and 191 hp with fuel injection. So the angle valve engine gets it's extra 20 hp from other things besides just a 8.7 CR. And I have never seen any data on camshaft timing events published, which can influence torque and power, but not like it does in an automotive engines which operate at various maximum speeds rather than the typical 2700 rpm aircraft engine. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Vogt To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Ken (Lycon) told me the 9:1 pistons would make 200 pretty easily. The better flowing heads on the angle valve definitely helps. I did a cranking pressure test on a Tiger with new LyCon ported and polished cylinders. The cranking pressure was 135-137 on 1, 3, 4. On #2, it was 149. Go figure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: flyv35b To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 7:09:48 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Also, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result in 20 more HP. As I recall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engine (experimental) rates the HP less that 200. Seems to me the angle valve IO-360 develops more power due to 3 things: a better induction system and combustion chamber (it flows more air), higher CR and possibly fuel injection. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: James Courtney To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:05 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Would it really make more heat though? You=99ve more efficiently converting fuel and oxygen to mechanical energy with the higher compression ratio. This said you=99re also incurring higher internal pressures which tends to transfer more heat to the cylinder and head. I wonder what the actual behavior is? Probably a bit more heat as you say since more energy is being extracted even if greater efficiency is at play. Jamey From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:24 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve From a horsepower point-of-view, the angle valve head flows better. The valves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really isn't that much. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio. If the parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make 200 hp also. The biggest difference is the angle valve head had better cooling fins. Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepower) it can shed the heat better. If you consider weight, the parallel valve is better hp/lb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: Bruce Smith To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 23:37:00 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.co m">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Tea_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.