Today's Message Index:
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1. 10:35 AM - Dayton Air Show TFR (David Feinstein)
2. 12:19 PM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (Gary Vogt)
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| Subject: | Dayton Air Show TFR |
Some folks were talking about flying to the air show after the convention. The
TFR has been posted:
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_0_0588.html
Looks like the airport will be open until 11:00 on air show Saturday.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve |
Just got off the phone with Ken.=0AA couple of things.=0A=0A(1) All of the
engines at LyCon are tested with the same stack setup as used by =0ALycomin
g. So, apples to apples. =0A(2) I don't know how the ECi engines are test
ed, so I can't say. But, odds are, =0Athey use the same setup Lycoming use
s also.=0A(3) LyCon prefers the Lycoming head over the ECi head because it'
s a better =0Adesign. =0A Yes, there are small differences in the
heads as delivered and the =0ALycoming makes more power out-of-the-box.
=0A Ported and polished, it makes even more.=0A(4) 189 HP is the 5
% rule. ECi doesn't have to recertify anything to put the =0Aengine in som
ething calling for 180 HP. =0A However, the 9:1 compression ratio is
worth about another 5 to 7 hp on the =0Aaverage.=0A(5) I'm not aware of any
one using a dyno that duplicates 'real world power =0Aoutput' to test an an
engine for sale to the consumer. =0A(6) Interesting that the ECi engine m
akes 191 HP with FI. I wasn't aware that =0AFI changed the physics of comb
ustion. =0A 2 HP is in the noise level. =0A That is done for ma
rketing.=0A(7) Have you ever watched a dyno run? =0A Tweeking the mix
ture can affect the peak power output by as much as 10 HP. =0A Ken had a IO
540 make 30 HP more when leaned.=0A The same engine run on the same dy
no, run after run, will make plus or =0Aminus 2 HP all day. The temperatur
e of the engine block affects peak HP.=0A(8) http://www.aeroinstock.com/pdf
/ECI-EXPENGINE%20KIT.pdf =0A Link says the experimental ECi IOX 360 en
gines make 188 HP and the =0Acarbureted one makes 182 HP=0A They all c
ome with flow matches cylinders. =0A(9) http://www.eci.aero/exp/eng_compar
isons_chart.pdf=0A Link has the 9:1 combination. =0A Look closel
y at the numbers, the fuel flow on the FI engine is less. It's =0Arunning
leaner than the carb engine. =0A Lean the Carb engine and it will mak
e the same HP.=0A(10) Lycon prepped an O360-A4K for one of my customers.
=0A It was a Lycoming overhauled engine with the roller tappets. =0A
The case was opened and "O" ringed to prevent leaks.=0A While
opened, all components were balanced.=0A Cylinders were ported and po
lished. Flow Matched. Stock compression =0Aratio.=0A Rich, on the d
yno, it made 208 HP @ 2700 rpm.=0A Leaned, on the dyno, it made 219 H
P @ 2725 rpm. =0A(11) The majority of racers, Red Bull etc, and aerobatic
guys, use parallel =0Avalve engines because the make ALMOST the same power
with a lot less weight.=0A(12) The angle valve flows a lot better out-of-th
e-box than the parallel valve. =0A =0A For that reason, porting and
polishing has a much greater affect on the =0Ap.v. engine than the a.v. eng
ine.=0A An a.v. engine picks up about 10 HP after porting and polish
ing.=0A A p.v. engine picks up 15-20 HP after porting and polishing.
=0A(13) a maxed out angle valve IO540 with 10:1 pistons makes 710 pounds-fo
ot of =0Atorque and 415 HP=0A(14) a maxed out parallel valve IO540 with 10:
1 pistons makes 705 pounds-foot of =0Atorque and 400 HP=0A HOWEVER,
the parallel valve engine weighs 60 lbs less.=0A One Red Bull racer
knocked 5 seconds off his time running a p.v. engine =0Ain place of the a.v
. engine he started with.=0A(15) Because of the design of the pistons to cl
ear the valves in the angle valve =0Aengine, there are two squish areas tha
t cause detonation.=0A The a.v. engine is more prone to detonation th
an the p.v. engine. For =0Athis reason, the 10:1 a.v. engine is limited to
20 degrees advance.=0A(16) The p.v. engine does not have that problem. Th
e cylinder head is flat and =0Athe flame front over the surface of the pist
on is a continuous surface. =0A The p.v. engine can be run so lean i
t will burn a hole in the cylinder =0Along before it ever detonates.=0A
LyCon recommends coating the top of the piston with ceramic to prevent
a =0Aburn through.=0A(17) There is a stroker kit to make the O360 an O375.
The rod ratio needs to be =0Afine tuned to make it work. Right now there
is more power to be made in the =0AO360.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________
____________=0AFrom: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-lis
t@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, July 7, 2010 4:46:12 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGru
mman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A=0A=EF=BB =0AMaybe (or prob
ably) on Lycon's dyno. But we both know that their dyno is not =0Atruly r
epresentative of the real world power output as installed in a Grumman =0A
with it's stock exhaust system, alternator and vacuum pump, which Lycon do
es =0Anot install on their test dyno installation. Their measured power f
igures are =0Ahigher than you will see in the airframe. Of course the PF
exhaust system does =0Aimprove the power output over a stock system.=0A
=0AMy point was that even with 9.0 CR the rated power from ECI, which make
s a =0Acomplete experimental engine, is less than 200 hp. In fact it's ra
ted at 189 =0Ahp with a carb and 191 hp with fuel injection. So the angle
valve engine gets =0Ait's extra 20 hp from other things besides just a 8.
7 CR. And I have never =0Aseen any data on camshaft timing events publish
ed, which can influence torque =0Aand power, but not like it does in an au
tomotive engines which operate at =0Avarious maximum speeds rather than the
typical 2700 rpm aircraft engine.=0A =0ACliff=0A----- Original Message --
--- =0A>From: Gary Vogt =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent:
Wednesday, July 07, 2010 2:04 PM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angl
e Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>=0A>=0A>Ken (Lycon) told me the 9:1 piston
s would make 200 pretty easily. The better =0A>flowing heads on the ang
le valve definitely helps.=0A>=0A>=0A>I did a cranking pressure test on a T
iger with new LyCon ported and polished =0A>cylinders. The cranking pre
ssure was 135-137 on 1, 3, 4. On #2, it was 149. =0A> Go figure.=0A>=0A
>=0A>=0A________________________________=0A From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfib
er.com>=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 7:
09:48 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel V
alve=0A>=0A> =0A>Also, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result i
n 20 more HP. As I =0A>recall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve
engine (experimental) rates =0A>the HP less that 200. Seems to me the
angle valve IO-360 develops more power =0A>due to 3 things: a better ind
uction system and combustion chamber (it flows =0A>more air), higher CR and
possibly fuel injection.=0A> =0A>Cliff=0A>----- Original Message -----
=0A>>From: James Courtney =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>
>Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:05 PM=0A>>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-Lis
t: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Would it really m
ake more heat though? You=99ve more efficiently converting =0A>>fuel
and oxygen to mechanical energy with the higher compression ratio.
=0A>>This said you=99re also incurring higher internal pressures
which tends to =0A>>transfer more heat to the cylinder and head. I wo
nder what the actual =0A>>behavior is? Probably a bit more heat as yo
u say since more energy is =0A>>being extracted even if greater effici
ency is at play.=0A>> =0A>>Jamey=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>From:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com =0A>>[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-serve
r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>>Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:2
4 PM=0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-Li
st: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>> =0A>>From a horsepower point-o
f-view, the angle valve head flows better. The =0A>>valves are angles
more toward the ports. But, the difference really isn't =0A>>that mu
ch. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio. If the =0A>
>parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make 200 hp
also. =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>The biggest difference is the angle valve head had
better cooling fins. =0A>> Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepowe
r) it can shed the heat better.=0A>> =0A>>If you consider weight, the
parallel valve is better hp/lb. =0A>> =0A>>=0A_______________________
_________=0A =0A>>From:Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>=0A>>To: teamgru
mman-list@matronics.com=0A>>Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM=0A>>Su
bject: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> =0A>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>>http://
forums.matronics.com=0A>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>> =0A>>N
o virus found in this incoming message.=0A>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.c
om=0A>>23:37:00=0A>> =0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamG
rumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="htt
p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>> href="http://w
ww.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>>=0Ahttp://ww
w.matronics.com/Navigator?Tea_blank" =0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com
">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>=0A> =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com
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