---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/08/10: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:35 AM - Dayton Air Show TFR (David Feinstein) 2. 12:19 PM - Re: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve (Gary Vogt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:17 AM PST US From: "David Feinstein" Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Dayton Air Show TFR Some folks were talking about flying to the air show after the convention. The TFR has been posted: http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_0_0588.html Looks like the airport will be open until 11:00 on air show Saturday. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:55 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve Just got off the phone with Ken.=0AA couple of things.=0A=0A(1) All of the engines at LyCon are tested with the same stack setup as used by =0ALycomin g. So, apples to apples. =0A(2) I don't know how the ECi engines are test ed, so I can't say. But, odds are, =0Athey use the same setup Lycoming use s also.=0A(3) LyCon prefers the Lycoming head over the ECi head because it' s a better =0Adesign. =0A Yes, there are small differences in the heads as delivered and the =0ALycoming makes more power out-of-the-box. =0A Ported and polished, it makes even more.=0A(4) 189 HP is the 5 % rule. ECi doesn't have to recertify anything to put the =0Aengine in som ething calling for 180 HP. =0A However, the 9:1 compression ratio is worth about another 5 to 7 hp on the =0Aaverage.=0A(5) I'm not aware of any one using a dyno that duplicates 'real world power =0Aoutput' to test an an engine for sale to the consumer. =0A(6) Interesting that the ECi engine m akes 191 HP with FI. I wasn't aware that =0AFI changed the physics of comb ustion. =0A 2 HP is in the noise level. =0A That is done for ma rketing.=0A(7) Have you ever watched a dyno run? =0A Tweeking the mix ture can affect the peak power output by as much as 10 HP. =0A Ken had a IO 540 make 30 HP more when leaned.=0A The same engine run on the same dy no, run after run, will make plus or =0Aminus 2 HP all day. The temperatur e of the engine block affects peak HP.=0A(8) http://www.aeroinstock.com/pdf /ECI-EXPENGINE%20KIT.pdf =0A Link says the experimental ECi IOX 360 en gines make 188 HP and the =0Acarbureted one makes 182 HP=0A They all c ome with flow matches cylinders. =0A(9) http://www.eci.aero/exp/eng_compar isons_chart.pdf=0A Link has the 9:1 combination. =0A Look closel y at the numbers, the fuel flow on the FI engine is less. It's =0Arunning leaner than the carb engine. =0A Lean the Carb engine and it will mak e the same HP.=0A(10) Lycon prepped an O360-A4K for one of my customers. =0A It was a Lycoming overhauled engine with the roller tappets. =0A The case was opened and "O" ringed to prevent leaks.=0A While opened, all components were balanced.=0A Cylinders were ported and po lished. Flow Matched. Stock compression =0Aratio.=0A Rich, on the d yno, it made 208 HP @ 2700 rpm.=0A Leaned, on the dyno, it made 219 H P @ 2725 rpm. =0A(11) The majority of racers, Red Bull etc, and aerobatic guys, use parallel =0Avalve engines because the make ALMOST the same power with a lot less weight.=0A(12) The angle valve flows a lot better out-of-th e-box than the parallel valve. =0A =0A For that reason, porting and polishing has a much greater affect on the =0Ap.v. engine than the a.v. eng ine.=0A An a.v. engine picks up about 10 HP after porting and polish ing.=0A A p.v. engine picks up 15-20 HP after porting and polishing. =0A(13) a maxed out angle valve IO540 with 10:1 pistons makes 710 pounds-fo ot of =0Atorque and 415 HP=0A(14) a maxed out parallel valve IO540 with 10: 1 pistons makes 705 pounds-foot of =0Atorque and 400 HP=0A HOWEVER, the parallel valve engine weighs 60 lbs less.=0A One Red Bull racer knocked 5 seconds off his time running a p.v. engine =0Ain place of the a.v . engine he started with.=0A(15) Because of the design of the pistons to cl ear the valves in the angle valve =0Aengine, there are two squish areas tha t cause detonation.=0A The a.v. engine is more prone to detonation th an the p.v. engine. For =0Athis reason, the 10:1 a.v. engine is limited to 20 degrees advance.=0A(16) The p.v. engine does not have that problem. Th e cylinder head is flat and =0Athe flame front over the surface of the pist on is a continuous surface. =0A The p.v. engine can be run so lean i t will burn a hole in the cylinder =0Along before it ever detonates.=0A LyCon recommends coating the top of the piston with ceramic to prevent a =0Aburn through.=0A(17) There is a stroker kit to make the O360 an O375. The rod ratio needs to be =0Afine tuned to make it work. Right now there is more power to be made in the =0AO360.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________ ____________=0AFrom: flyv35b =0ATo: teamgrumman-lis t@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, July 7, 2010 4:46:12 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGru mman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A=0A=EF=BB =0AMaybe (or prob ably) on Lycon's dyno. But we both know that their dyno is not =0Atruly r epresentative of the real world power output as installed in a Grumman =0A with it's stock exhaust system, alternator and vacuum pump, which Lycon do es =0Anot install on their test dyno installation. Their measured power f igures are =0Ahigher than you will see in the airframe. Of course the PF exhaust system does =0Aimprove the power output over a stock system.=0A =0AMy point was that even with 9.0 CR the rated power from ECI, which make s a =0Acomplete experimental engine, is less than 200 hp. In fact it's ra ted at 189 =0Ahp with a carb and 191 hp with fuel injection. So the angle valve engine gets =0Ait's extra 20 hp from other things besides just a 8. 7 CR. And I have never =0Aseen any data on camshaft timing events publish ed, which can influence torque =0Aand power, but not like it does in an au tomotive engines which operate at =0Avarious maximum speeds rather than the typical 2700 rpm aircraft engine.=0A =0ACliff=0A----- Original Message -- --- =0A>From: Gary Vogt =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 2:04 PM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angl e Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>=0A>=0A>Ken (Lycon) told me the 9:1 piston s would make 200 pretty easily. The better =0A>flowing heads on the ang le valve definitely helps.=0A>=0A>=0A>I did a cranking pressure test on a T iger with new LyCon ported and polished =0A>cylinders. The cranking pre ssure was 135-137 on 1, 3, 4. On #2, it was 149. =0A> Go figure.=0A>=0A >=0A>=0A________________________________=0A From: flyv35b =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 7: 09:48 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel V alve=0A>=0A> =0A>Also, I don't think a 0.2 increase in CR would result i n 20 more HP. As I =0A>recall ECI which offers a 9.0 CR parallel valve engine (experimental) rates =0A>the HP less that 200. Seems to me the angle valve IO-360 develops more power =0A>due to 3 things: a better ind uction system and combustion chamber (it flows =0A>more air), higher CR and possibly fuel injection.=0A> =0A>Cliff=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: James Courtney =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A> >Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:05 PM=0A>>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-Lis t: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Would it really m ake more heat though? You=99ve more efficiently converting =0A>>fuel and oxygen to mechanical energy with the higher compression ratio. =0A>>This said you=99re also incurring higher internal pressures which tends to =0A>>transfer more heat to the cylinder and head. I wo nder what the actual =0A>>behavior is? Probably a bit more heat as yo u say since more energy is =0A>>being extracted even if greater effici ency is at play.=0A>> =0A>>Jamey=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>From:owner-teamgrumm an-list-server@matronics.com =0A>>[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-serve r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>>Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:2 4 PM=0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-Li st: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>> =0A>>From a horsepower point-o f-view, the angle valve head flows better. The =0A>>valves are angles more toward the ports. But, the difference really isn't =0A>>that mu ch. The 200 hp angle valve uses 8.7:1 compression ratio. If the =0A> >parallel valve O360 had 8.7:1 compression ratio, it would make 200 hp also. =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>The biggest difference is the angle valve head had better cooling fins. =0A>> Therefore, if it makes more heat (horsepowe r) it can shed the heat better.=0A>> =0A>>If you consider weight, the parallel valve is better hp/lb. =0A>> =0A>>=0A_______________________ _________=0A =0A>>From:Bruce Smith =0A>>To: teamgru mman-list@matronics.com=0A>>Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 6:55:16 PM=0A>>Su bject: TeamGrumman-List: Angle Valve vs. Parallel Valve=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>>http:// forums.matronics.com=0A>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>> =0A>>N o virus found in this incoming message.=0A>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.c om=0A>>23:37:00=0A>> =0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamG rumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="htt p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>> href="http://w ww.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =0A>>=0Ahttp://ww w.matronics.com/Navigator?Tea_blank" =0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>=0A> =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman -Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A> h ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c -======================== ================== =0A=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.