Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:05 AM - Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
2. 07:38 AM - LoPresti Cowl list (ArjayS@aol.com)
3. 07:44 AM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (923te)
4. 10:13 AM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (Gary Vogt)
5. 10:14 AM - More LoPresti Data (ArjayS@aol.com)
6. 11:21 AM - Re: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance (flyv35b)
7. 11:34 AM - Re: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance (ArjayS@aol.com)
8. 04:00 PM - Re: More LoPresti Data (923te)
9. 04:35 PM - Re: More LoPresti Data (Gary Vogt)
10. 04:46 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (Brock Windsor)
11. 04:52 PM - Re: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance (Brock Windsor)
12. 05:35 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (flyv35b)
13. 06:07 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
14. 06:12 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (Gary Vogt)
15. 06:23 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
16. 06:23 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (Gary Vogt)
17. 06:41 PM - Re: LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance (Gary Vogt)
18. 07:19 PM - LoPresti List (ArjayS@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance |
Hi Cliff
You bet!
I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and
non-technical alike.
1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the AA5B)
The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling mods no
longer uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction system was
fed
off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed over the delightfully warm
cylinders, essentially preheating the air. The NACA induction air scoop wh
ich
is part of the cowl mod takes ambient temperature air from out side of the
cowling which reduces the temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the
induction air temp by about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine
ingests
cooler, denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also contributes and
allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm. Most measurable under the
following conditions: Wide open throttle leaned to 100 degrees on the rich
side
of peak at 1000 feet. Under these conditions the butterfly valve in the
carburetor is completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are flying at a
condition where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed increase is
not as
easily apparent. Under these condition the true airspeed is 3 to 4 knots
higher
than stock.
That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If not....just
say we use fairy dust.
From: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
200 RPM is a hugh increase in horsepower and/or a reduction in cooling dra
g
with a fixed pitch prop.- And are you talking about the AA-5B or AG-5B
induction system as a reference?- The PF exhaust on a Tiger only results
in
about an 80 rpm increase in full throttle RPM.- And from the AA-5B POH
a
200
rpm increase (from 2500 to 2700 rpm) at 7000 ft PA results in a 15 mph
increase in cruise speed.- Care to explain how the 200 rpm increase rela
tes
to the 3-5 kts you mentioned?
Cliff
Message 2
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| Subject: | LoPresti Cowl list |
Wow!
Well, thanks for the response guys. As soon as we get 10 signed up we'll
call you for delivery dates.
Here's the first two. AND just so everone knows, we need groups of 10
because we get a discount on hardware orders at 10. Thanks!
1. Bill Oneal
2. Ed Joseph
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
Gary,
In reference to Arjay's email copied below.
I've discussed the testing you mentioned to me some time ago with
several people. That is your temperature testing of the air in the
induction where you found no heating from the cylinders at cruise
speeds.
I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly. That
is you found no increase in the air temp from the cowling entrance to
the induction entrance at the rear of the baffles. That is correct
right?
I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually yields a
lower manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler
temps. It is well known and recorded in the NACA literature that a NACA
scoop is a very poor design for use where RAM is desired such as in an
induction where it was shown that up to 30% pressure loss occures.
I own both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased the
LoPresti years ago when it was the only option. I also owned another
Tiger with the LoPresti.
I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and found that
all but one found no speed increase. Most said that the engine temps
were lower and more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a racer, who,
although he did not have just before and just after numbers, thought the
LoPresti added 2 or 3 kts and helped in cooling both CHT's and oil
temps. Glen Hadley who's Tiger I owned did have before and after flight
tests and said he found no speed increase but also said cooling was
improved.
Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the LoPresti
nose bowl and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely different things
and the LoPresti in no way comes even close to the benefits of the
Jaguar. One of the things I like about the Jaguar is that it retains the
stock induction location. I had already proven that this is good for 3/4
- 1" of manifoild pressure increase over the stock AG5B location.
>From all the flight testing I have done over the years I have learned
that it is quite difficult to repeat flights with the same conditions.
It is also difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference in speeds due to
mods.
I think I will utilize my EI engine scanner and place probes at the
entrance of the cowl and at teh entrance of the induction just to
confirm what Ithought you had told me about these temps. I'll report
back with the results.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthhusiast,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: ArjayS@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:04 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
Hi Cliff
You bet!
I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and
non-technical alike.
1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the AA5B)
The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling mods no
longer uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction system
was fed off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed over the
delightfully warm cylinders, essentially preheating the air. The NACA
induction air scoop which is part of the cowl mod takes ambient
temperature air from out side of the cowling which reduces the
temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the induction air temp by
about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine ingests cooler,
denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also contributes
and allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm. Most measurable under
the following conditions: Wide open throttle leaned to 100 degrees on
the rich side of peak at 1000 feet. Under these conditions the butterfly
valve in the carburetor is completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are
flying at a condition where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed
increase is not as easily apparent. Under these condition the true
airspeed is 3 to 4 knots higher than stock.
That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If
not....just say we use fairy dust.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
Ned,
When I measured temps at the inlet to the airbox on the back of the #3, I found
the temps to be within a degree of ambient. I found no excessive heating of the
air. Certainly not 20 degrees. Unless the plane is sitting still with the
engine running.
As for the NACA flush inlet, a couple of things. First, any energy in the air
is totally lost when it slams into that wall at the end of the inlet, makes an
abrupt 90 degree turn and goes straight up and then through 3 or 4 feet of rough
SCAT tubing, building a boundary layer the entire time, and then into the
airbox. Second, the goal is to bleed off any excess air coming into the engine
that isn't being used to cool the engine. Which brings up CHTs.
You'll always see higher CHTs on #1 than the others during climb. That was done
intentionally. The inlets are not symmetric, left to right. Subtle, but
different.
Your CHTs will not be that good with a richer mixture unless you can use the
early carb. Yours has different jetting to compensate for the dual airboxes on
the AG.
As for airspeeds, I see 2 to 3 knots variation depending on how it's trimmed.
Like you, I have never talked to anyone who has seen an increase in speed with
the LoPresti nose-bowl. The improved CHT #3 temps is due to the ramp on the
right inlet.
The best location for the inlet hasn't been tried yet. Stay tuned.
Gary
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 7:45:53 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
Gary,
In reference to Arjay's email copied below.
I've discussed the testing you mentioned to me some time ago with several
people. That is your temperature testing of the air in the induction where you
found no heating from the cylinders at cruise speeds.
I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly. That is you
found no increase in the air temp from the cowling entrance to the induction
entrance at the rear of the baffles. That is correct right?
I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually yields a lower
manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler temps. It is well
known and recorded in the NACA literature that a NACA scoop is a very poor
design for use where RAM is desired such as in an induction where it was shown
that up to 30% pressure loss occures.
I own both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased the LoPresti
years ago when it was the only option. I also owned another Tiger with the
LoPresti.
I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and found that all but
one found no speed increase. Most said that the engine temps were lower and
more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a racer, who, although he did not have
just before and just after numbers, thought the LoPresti added 2 or 3 kts and
helped in cooling both CHT's and oil temps. Glen Hadley who's Tiger I owned did
have before and after flight tests and said he found no speed increase but also
said cooling was improved.
Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the LoPresti nose
bowl and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely different things and the
LoPresti in no way comes even close to the benefits of the Jaguar. One of the
things I like about the Jaguar is that it retains the stock induction location.
I had already proven that this is good for 3/4 - 1" of manifoild pressure
increase over the stock AG5B location.
>From all the flight testing I have done over the years I have learned that it
is quite difficult to repeat flights with the same conditions. It is also
difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference in speeds due to mods.
I think I will utilize my EI engine scanner and place probes at the entrance of
the cowl and at teh entrance of the induction just to confirm what Ithought
you had told me about these temps. I'll report back with the results.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthhusiast,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: ArjayS@aol.com
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:04 AM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
>
>Hi Cliff
>You bet!
>I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and
>non-technical alike.
>
>1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the AA5B)
>The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling mods no longer
>uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction system was fed off
>of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed over the delightfully warm
>cylinders, essentially preheating the air. The NACA induction air scoop which
>is part of the cowl mod takes ambient temperature air from out side of the
>cowling which reduces the temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the
>induction air temp by about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine
>ingests cooler, denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
>
>2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also contributes and
>allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm. Most measurable under the
>following conditions: Wide open throttle leaned to 100 degrees on the rich
>side of peak at 1000 feet. Under these conditions the butterfly valve in the
>carburetor is completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are flying at a
>condition where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed increase is not
>as easily apparent. Under these condition the true airspeed is 3 to 4 knots
>higher than stock.
>
>That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If not....just say
>we use fairy dust.
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | More LoPresti Data |
Hi Guys!
Please allow me to add to the data set. First, let me tell you I'm a fan of
the Jaguar cowl and of AU Country. I told Gary so at the convention. There
are so few guys out here working on Grumman parts and we need to appreciate
what it takes to get those products to market. I mentioned we originally
designed a complete cowl but the market size and the ownership of the company
was in question at the time, so we chose discression (as the better part of
valor) and produced the Nose Bowl. I REALLY appreciate all Gary has had to do
to get his design approved and to market. He's a good guy and when we spoke
at the convention he agreed, we certainly don't do this for the giant
financial reward. We do it because we're compulsive and passionate and making
something better.
Please don't take the following responses personally. They are just data
points. They merely reflect what we have measured over time and what we know.
Thanks!
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
Gary, In reference to Arjay's email copied below. I've discussed the
testing you mentioned to me some time ago with several people. That is your
temperature testing of the air in the induction where you found no heating from
the cylinders at cruise speeds.
There is an increase of 4 to 6 degrees F due to adiabactic heating of the
induction air relative to the ambient air. There is about a 20 degree F
increase over abient air temp with the stock induction system.
I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly. That is
you found no increase in the air temp from the cowling entrance to the
induction entrance at the rear of the baffles. That is correct right?
No, actually we found about a 26 degree F rise.
I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually yields a lower
manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler temps.
Nope we measured a lower temperature then stock.
Also not taking the induction air from the plemun leaves more air to cool
the engine and oil.It is well known and recorded in the NACA literature that
a NACA scoop is a very poor design for use where RAM is desired such as in
an induction where it was shown that up to 30% pressure loss occures. A pitot
type inlet is best. But taking the air off of a heated air source through a
simple cut hole is worse. That is why we changed it to the NACA duct. I own
both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased the LoPresti years
ago when it was the only option. I also owned another Tiger with the
LoPresti. I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and found that
all but one found no speed increase. Most said that the engine temps were
lower and more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a racer, who, although he did
not have just before and just after numbers, thought the LoPresti added 2
or 3 kts and helped in cooling both CHT's and oil temps. Glen Hadley who's
Tiger I owned did have before and after flight tests and said he found no
speed increase but also said cooling was improved. Most people can't flight test
well-Racers have to be able to to improve their aircraft.
Stu is a sharp guy and an accomplished racer. You make another valid point,
that racers pay strict attention to very small increments because those
improvements are what really win or lose the race.
Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the LoPresti
nose bowl and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely different things and
the LoPresti in no way comes even close to the benefits of the Jaguar. One of
the things I like about the Jaguar is that it retains the stock induction
location. I had already proven that this is good for 3/4 - 1" of manifoild
pressure increase over the stock AG5B location.
The AG5B is not the same as the stock tiger the AG5B is not as good as the
original design. (Which of course shows up in the slower speeds of the
Aircraft).
>From all the flight testing I have done over the years I have learned that
it is quite difficult to repeat flights with the same conditions. It is also
difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference in speeds due to mods.
That's a very important point. We takes so many test flights my head hurts.
The data set needs to be large enough that you can be certain the results
are repeatable. However, if you know what you are doing you can indeed
measure small increments. It's just hard.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance |
Hi Cliff
You bet!
I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and
non-technical alike.
1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the AA5B)
The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling mods no
longer uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction system
was fed off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed over the
delightfully warm cylinders, essentially preheating the air. The NACA
induction air scoop which is part of the cowl mod takes ambient
temperature air from out side of the cowling which reduces the
temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the induction air temp by
about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine ingests cooler,
denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also contributes
and allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm. Most measurable under
the following conditions: Wide open throttle leaned to 100 degrees on
the rich side of peak at 1000 feet. Under these conditions the butterfly
valve in the carburetor is completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are
flying at a condition where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed
increase is not as easily apparent. Under these condition the true
airspeed is 3 to 4 knots higher than stock.
That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If
not....just say we use fairy dust.
Hi Rj,
You explanation above does not really explain any further what you said
previously AND you didn't explain the relationship of 200 rpm increase
to the 3-5 kts.
1. Let me see if I understand what you are tryping to say. Your "NEW"
nosebowl is different that the one you are currently selling? How is it
that much different?
2. The induction air temperature rise across the top of cylinders #1/#3
in the AA-5B is nowhere near 20F that you claim from testing that I am
aware of. That airflow is moving across the top of the cylinders and
along the top of the cowling and then flowing downward across the
cylinders where it picks up heat. How is that fast moving air going to
pick up heat when it is flow down across the cylinders away from the air
flowing in to the inlet duct behind cylinder #3.
3. You are cliaming a 200 rpm increase due mostly to the cooler
induction air. So what you are saying is that a stock AA-5B that will
turn 2700 rpm at full throttle now will be able to turn 2900 rpm at full
throttle with your "NEW" nosebowl? This would take an increase of
nearly 25 hp to achieve. Even a PF exhaust only increases full throttle
rpm by 80 as I mentioned. Incredible if it's true! And if so, why only
3-4 kts. I would think you would see much more speed increase than
that. Take a look at the AA-5B POH and see what kind of speed increase
occurs with 200 rpm more engine speed.
Sorry, but I don't see anything more than fairy dust here!
Cliff A&P/IA
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance |
Hi Cliff!
Well that's easily solved. How about coming down as my guest to our
facility. I can walk you through our process, you can do the measurements yourself
and see what we do. We'll videotape everything for everyone and put it
online. It would be a great opportunity to see inside our operation.
By the way, not to be argumentative, but if every 200 rpm equals 15 knots,
that would kinda amazing. And we're talking about apples and oranges here as
to where the power is measured, but I assume you know that.
PLEASE, take me up on the offer. At the least, we get to wine and dine you
and you get to show how unaffected you are by that!
Cheers!
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: More LoPresti Data |
Okay Arjay,
Just spent the afternoon flight testing with a temp probe in the
induction entrance. I flew for 45 minutes in all 4 ordinate directions.
Here are the results:
OAT INDUCTION RPM
88 89 2730
The difference is 1degF
The greatest difference I could achieve was on the ground after the
flight sitting running at 1360 down to 670RPM for 10 minutes where the
temp difference was 11 degF
I would be very interested to take you up on the offer you made to Cliff
and have you show me how you get a 26 degree difference in cruise
flight.
I'd also be interested in seeing your Thermo calcs which support your
adiabatic numbers....
I would still be willing to make a wager.
How about you?
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
Ned
Here is a picture of the temp probe installation:
Gary, In reference to Arjay's email copied below. I've discussed the
testing you mentioned to me some time ago with several people. That is
your temperature testing of the air in the induction where you found no
heating from the cylinders at cruise speeds.
There is an increase of 4 to 6 degrees F due to adiabactic heating of
the induction air relative to the ambient air. There is about a 20
degree F increase over abient air temp with the stock induction system.
I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly.
That is you found no increase in the air temp from the cowling entrance
to the induction entrance at the rear of the baffles. That is correct
right?
No, actually we found about a 26 degree F rise.
I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually yields a
lower manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler
temps.
Nope we measured a lower temperature then stock.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: More LoPresti Data |
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
Again, being new to this list and tiger ownership-I have a couple of ques
tions.- Is the Jaguar cowl the cowl that Gary at AUCountry working on?-
I can only assume it is STCd by now.- if not, what is the Jaguar cowl, a
nd will it fit on stock 76 Tiger.
-
Thanks
Brock
--- On Mon, 7/19/10, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
Gary,
-
In reference to Arjay's email copied below.
-
I've discussed the testing you mentioned to me some time ago-with several
people. That is your temperature testing of the air in the induction where
you found no heating from the cylinders at cruise speeds.
-
I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly. That is
you found no increase in the air temp from the cowling entrance to the indu
ction entrance at the rear of the baffles. That is correct right?
-
I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design-actually-yields a
-lower manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler temp
s. It is well known and recorded in the NACA literature that a NACA scoop i
s a very poor design for use where RAM is desired such as in an induction w
here it was shown that up to 30% pressure loss occures.
-
I own both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased the LoPresti
years ago when it was the only option. I also owned another-Tiger with t
he LoPresti.
I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and found that all
but one found no speed increase. Most said that the engine temps were lower
and more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a racer, who, although he did
not have just before and just after numbers, thought the LoPresti added 2 o
r 3 kts and helped in cooling both CHT's and oil temps. Glen Hadley who's
-Tiger I owned did have before and after flight tests and said he found n
o speed increase but also said cooling was improved.
-
Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the LoPresti nos
e bowl-and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely different things and
the LoPresti in no way comes even close to the benefits of the Jaguar. One
of the things I like about the Jaguar is that it retains the stock inducti
on location. I had already proven that this is good for 3/4 - 1" of manifoi
ld pressure increase over the stock AG5B location.
-
>From all the flight testing I have done over the years-I have learned tha
t-it is quite-difficult to repeat-flights with the same conditions. I
t-is also difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference in speeds due to mo
ds.
-
I think I will utilize my EI engine scanner and place probes at the entranc
e of the cowl and at teh entrance of the induction just to confirm what-
Ithought you had told me about these temps. I'll-report back with the res
ults.
-
Your Fellow Grumman Enthhusiast,
Ned
-
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: ArjayS@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:04 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
Hi Cliff
You bet!
I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and non-techn
ical alike.
1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the AA5B)
The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling mods no long
er uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction system was fed
off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed over the delightfully warm
cylinders, essentially preheating the air. The NACA induction air scoop whi
ch is part of the cowl mod takes ambient temperature air from out side of t
he cowling which reduces the temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the
induction air temp by about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine i
ngests cooler, denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also contributes and
allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm. Most measurable under the fo
llowing conditions: Wide open throttle leaned to 100 degrees on the rich si
de of peak at 1000 feet. Under these conditions the butterfly valve in the
carburetor is completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are flying at a con
dition where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed increase is not a
s easily apparent. Under these condition the true airspeed is 3 to 4 knots
higher than stock.
That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If not....just s
ay we use fairy dust.
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance |
RJ
Ok, I am still new to this, but if you convince Cliff off your claims I'll
buy one.- In the meantime, are there any solid specs and performance incr
eases on the Jaguar cowl?
--- On Mon, 7/19/10, ArjayS@aol.com <ArjayS@aol.com> wrote:
From: ArjayS@aol.com <ArjayS@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
Hi Cliff!
Well that's easily solved. How about coming down as my guest to our facilit
y. I can walk you through our process, you can do the measurements yourself
and see what we do. We'll videotape everything for everyone and put it onl
ine. It would be a great opportunity to see inside our operation.
By the way, not to be argumentative, but if every 200 rpm equals 15 knots,
that would kinda amazing. And we're talking about apples and oranges here a
s to where the power is measured, but I assume you know that.
PLEASE, take me up on the offer. At the least, we get to wine and dine you
and you get to show how unaffected you are by that!
Cheers!
Rj Siegel-- CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
=0A=0A=0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
It's finished, is STC'd and will fit on a 76 Tiger. Gary has the data
but I haven't seen it published. It is a definite improvement in both
cooling and speed.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Brock Windsor
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
Again, being new to this list and tiger ownership I have a
couple of questions. Is the Jaguar cowl the cowl that Gary at AUCountry
working on? I can only assume it is STCd by now. if not, what is the
Jaguar cowl, and will it fit on stock 76 Tiger.
Thanks
Brock
--- On Mon, 7/19/10, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 9:45 AM
Gary,
In reference to Arjay's email copied below.
I've discussed the testing you mentioned to me some time ago
with several people. That is your temperature testing of the air in the
induction where you found no heating from the cylinders at cruise
speeds.
I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results
correctly. That is you found no increase in the air temp from the
cowling entrance to the induction entrance at the rear of the baffles.
That is correct right?
I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually
yields a lower manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any
cooler temps. It is well known and recorded in the NACA literature that
a NACA scoop is a very poor design for use where RAM is desired such as
in an induction where it was shown that up to 30% pressure loss occures.
I own both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased
the LoPresti years ago when it was the only option. I also owned another
Tiger with the LoPresti.
I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and
found that all but one found no speed increase. Most said that the
engine temps were lower and more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a
racer, who, although he did not have just before and just after numbers,
thought the LoPresti added 2 or 3 kts and helped in cooling both CHT's
and oil temps. Glen Hadley who's Tiger I owned did have before and after
flight tests and said he found no speed increase but also said cooling
was improved.
Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the
LoPresti nose bowl and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely
different things and the LoPresti in no way comes even close to the
benefits of the Jaguar. One of the things I like about the Jaguar is
that it retains the stock induction location. I had already proven that
this is good for 3/4 - 1" of manifoild pressure increase over the stock
AG5B location.
From all the flight testing I have done over the years I have
learned that it is quite difficult to repeat flights with the same
conditions. It is also difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference in
speeds due to mods.
I think I will utilize my EI engine scanner and place probes
at the entrance of the cowl and at teh entrance of the induction just to
confirm what Ithought you had told me about these temps. I'll report
back with the results.
Your Fellow Grumman Enthhusiast,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: ArjayS@aol.com
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:04 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
Hi Cliff
You bet!
I'll try to make my explainations understandable to
technical and non-technical alike.
1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference
the AA5B)
The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The
cowling mods no longer uses the stock induction air system. The stock
induction system was fed off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed
over the delightfully warm cylinders, essentially preheating the air.
The NACA induction air scoop which is part of the cowl mod takes ambient
temperature air from out side of the cowling which reduces the
temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the induction air temp by
about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine ingests cooler,
denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also
contributes and allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm. Most
measurable under the following conditions: Wide open throttle leaned to
100 degrees on the rich side of peak at 1000 feet. Under these
conditions the butterfly valve in the carburetor is completely open.
(Max efficiency). If you are flying at a condition where the butterfly
valve is not open the airspeed increase is not as easily apparent. Under
these condition the true airspeed is 3 to 4 knots higher than stock.
That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable.
If not....just say we use fairy dust.
st" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
Hi Brock
The Jaguar cowl is indeed what Gary at AU Country is working on. It's a
very nice looking cowl. He's been at it for ten years now. There are no final
performance figures or prices yet but I think he selling the first units for
about eight thousand. (You would need to check with him). I do not believe
it's certified yet but he's got to be very close. I think Cliff may have one
of his first units. They are both nice guys.
As far as convincing Cliff of anything, I kinda don't think that's possible
for me. I'm retired from Apple computer, I was one of the original Mac
designers. I mention this because for some reason folks take the Mac vs. PC as
almost a religious issue. (Which makes as much sense to me as defending your
purchase of a GE toaster instead of a Sears.) It looks like many folks in
aviation take the same stance about their "beliefs". I have four engineering
degrees generally because I'm a nerd but mostly because I'm curious. I have a
little bit of both knowledge and experience when it comes fluid dynamics
and thermodynamics but I do try to keep an open mind. However, when you meet
someone who comes to the table with a set belief, then the only thing you can
do is be polite.
Or look at it this way. Maybe, I'm completely full of beans. So instead of
listening to me, let me send you to lots of LoPresti customers who have our
products and feel they work equal or better than advertised. Probably the
most famous is Greg Amy and his gorgeous Tiger. He says he gets in the low
140+ knots and loves the look and cooling.
http://www.gatm.com/flying/feedback.html
OR maybe a 100% money back guarentee is enough. Dunno...
Either way it takes the look of the Tiger out of the late 1950's and that
alone is a good thing.
Just my 2 cents!
Thanks!
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
It isn't published because then I'd have to do a whole bunch of performance
testing to verify the improvements. Then, I'd have to change the POH. Then,
I'd have to do a supplement. Then . . . .
I just did the cowling for cooling reasons.
At 1000 MSL, if I push my plane, I can true out at 158 to 160 knots. It will
comfortably go at 150 knots all day.
________________________________
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 5:26:26 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
It's finished, is STC'd and will fit on a 76 Tiger. Gary has the data but I
haven't seen it published. It is a definite improvement in both cooling and
speed.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
>From: Brock Windsor
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:46 PM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
>
>
>Again, being new to this list and tiger ownership I have a couple of
>questions. Is the Jaguar cowl the cowl that Gary at AUCountry working
>on? I can only assume it is STCd by now. if not, what is the Jaguar
>cowl, and will it fit on stock 76 Tiger.
>
>Thanks
>Brock
>
>--- On Mon, 7/19/10, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>From: 923te <923te@att.net>
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 9:45 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>Gary,
>>
>>In reference to Arjay's email copied below.
>>
>>I've discussed the testing you mentioned to me some time ago with
>>several people. That is your temperature testing of the air in the
>>induction where you found no heating from the cylinders at cruise
>>speeds.
>>
>>
>>I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly.
>>That is you found no increase in the air temp from the cowling
>>entrance to the induction entrance at the rear of the baffles. That
>>is correct right?
>>
>>I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually yields
>>a lower manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler
>>temps. It is well known and recorded in the NACA literature that a
>>NACA scoop is a very poor design for use where RAM is desired such
as
>>in an induction where it was shown that up to 30% pressure loss
>>occures.
>>
>>I own both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased the
>>LoPresti years ago when it was the only option. I also owned
>>another Tiger with the LoPresti.
>>I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and found
>>that all but one found no speed increase. Most said that the engine
>>temps were lower and more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a racer,
>>who, although he did not have just before and just after numbers,
>>thought the LoPresti added 2 or 3 kts and helped in cooling both
>>CHT's and oil temps. Glen Hadley who's Tiger I owned did have before
>>and after flight tests and said he found no speed increase but also
>>said cooling was improved.
>>
>>Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the
>>LoPresti nose bowl and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely
>>different things and the LoPresti in no way comes even close to the
>>benefits of the Jaguar. One of the things I like about the Jaguar
is
>>that it retains the stock induction location. I had already proven
>>that this is good for 3/4 - 1" of manifoild pressure increase over
>>the stock AG5B location.
>>
>>From all the flight testing I have done over the years I have learned
>>that it is quite difficult to repeat flights with the same
>>conditions. It is also difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference
in
>>speeds due to mods.
>>
>>I think I will utilize my EI engine scanner and place probes at the
>>entrance of the cowl and at teh entrance of the induction just to
>>confirm what Ithought you had told me about these temps. I'll report
>>back with the results.
>>
>>Your Fellow Grumman Enthhusiast,
>>Ned
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: ArjayS@aol.com
>>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:04 AM
>>>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
>>>
>>>Hi Cliff
>>>You bet!
>>>I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and
>>>non-technical alike.
>>>
>>>1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the
>>>AA5B)
>>>The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling
mods
>>>no longer uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction
>>>system was fed off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed
over
>>>the delightfully warm cylinders, essentially preheating the air.
>>>The NACA induction air scoop which is part of the cowl mod takes
>>>ambient temperature air from out side of the cowling which reduces
>>>the temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the induction air
>>>temp by about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine ingests
>>>cooler, denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
>>>
>>>2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also
>>>contributes and allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm.
Most
>>>measurable under the following conditions: Wide open throttle
>>>leaned to 100 degrees on the rich side of peak at 1000 feet. Under
>>>these conditions the butterfly valve in the carburetor is
>>>completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are flying at a condition
>>>where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed increase is
not
>>>as easily apparent. Under these condition the true airspeed is
3 to
>>>4 knots higher than stock.
>>>
>>>That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If
>>>not....just say we use fairy dust.
>>>
> st" rel=nofollow
>target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listet=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
> llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
COOL! As far as publishing the results, I agree, it's a GIGANTIC pain and
it never ends.
Rj
> It isn't published because then I'd have to do a whole bunch of
> performance testing to verify the improvements. -Then, I'd have to cha
nge the POH.
> -Then, I'd have to do a supplement. -Then . . . .-
>
> I just did the cowling for cooling reasons. -
>
> At 1000 MSL, if I push my plane, I can true out at 158 to 160 knots. -
It
> will comfortably go at 150 knots all day.
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
pic
________________________________
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 5:26:26 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
It's finished, is STC'd and will fit on a 76 Tiger. Gary has the data but I
haven't seen it published. It is a definite improvement in both cooling and
speed.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
>From: Brock Windsor
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:46 PM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
>
>
>Again, being new to this list and tiger ownership I have a couple of
>questions. Is the Jaguar cowl the cowl that Gary at AUCountry working
>on? I can only assume it is STCd by now. if not, what is the Jaguar
>cowl, and will it fit on stock 76 Tiger.
>
>Thanks
>Brock
>
>--- On Mon, 7/19/10, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>From: 923te <923te@att.net>
>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 9:45 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>Gary,
>>
>>In reference to Arjay's email copied below.
>>
>>I've discussed the testing you mentioned to me some time ago with
>>several people. That is your temperature testing of the air in the
>>induction where you found no heating from the cylinders at cruise
>>speeds.
>>
>>
>>I just wanted to confirm that I remembered your results correctly.
>>That is you found no increase in the air temp from the cowling
>>entrance to the induction entrance at the rear of the baffles. That
>>is correct right?
>>
>>I would wager that the NACA used in LoPresti design actually yields
>>a lower manifold pressure than the stock induction and not any cooler
>>temps. It is well known and recorded in the NACA literature that a
>>NACA scoop is a very poor design for use where RAM is desired such
as
>>in an induction where it was shown that up to 30% pressure loss
>>occures.
>>
>>I own both a LoPresti nose bowl and a Jaguar Cowl. I purchased the
>>LoPresti years ago when it was the only option. I also owned
>>another Tiger with the LoPresti.
>>I did a lot of researching other owners of the LoPresti and found
>>that all but one found no speed increase. Most said that the engine
>>temps were lower and more even. One person Stu Morse, who is a racer,
>>who, although he did not have just before and just after numbers,
>>thought the LoPresti added 2 or 3 kts and helped in cooling both
>>CHT's and oil temps. Glen Hadley who's Tiger I owned did have before
>>and after flight tests and said he found no speed increase but also
>>said cooling was improved.
>>
>>Just to be clear, there really is no common ground between the
>>LoPresti nose bowl and the Jaguar cowling. They are 2 completely
>>different things and the LoPresti in no way comes even close to the
>>benefits of the Jaguar. One of the things I like about the Jaguar
is
>>that it retains the stock induction location. I had already proven
>>that this is good for 3/4 - 1" of manifoild pressure increase over
>>the stock AG5B location.
>>
>>From all the flight testing I have done over the years I have learned
>>that it is quite difficult to repeat flights with the same
>>conditions. It is also difficult to quantify 2 or 3 kts difference
in
>>speeds due to mods.
>>
>>I think I will utilize my EI engine scanner and place probes at the
>>entrance of the cowl and at teh entrance of the induction just to
>>confirm what Ithought you had told me about these temps. I'll report
>>back with the results.
>>
>>Your Fellow Grumman Enthhusiast,
>>Ned
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: ArjayS@aol.com
>>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>>Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:04 AM
>>>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cowl (Nose Bowl) Performance
>>>
>>>Hi Cliff
>>>You bet!
>>>I'll try to make my explainations understandable to technical and
>>>non-technical alike.
>>>
>>>1. First, where does the 200 RPM come from? (For reference the
>>>AA5B)
>>>The 200 RPM increase is due to a number of things. The cowling
mods
>>>no longer uses the stock induction air system. The stock induction
>>>system was fed off of the engine upper cooling plenum. (routed
over
>>>the delightfully warm cylinders, essentially preheating the air.
>>>The NACA induction air scoop which is part of the cowl mod takes
>>>ambient temperature air from out side of the cowling which reduces
>>>the temperature considerably. The NACA lowers the induction air
>>>temp by about 20 degrees. The net result is that the engine ingests
>>>cooler, denser air and breathes better. (More RPM)
>>>
>>>2. The reduced inlet and planform drag of the cowling also
>>>contributes and allows the aircraft to use that extra 200 rpm.
Most
>>>measurable under the following conditions: Wide open throttle
>>>leaned to 100 degrees on the rich side of peak at 1000 feet. Under
>>>these conditions the butterfly valve in the carburetor is
>>>completely open. (Max efficiency). If you are flying at a condition
>>>where the butterfly valve is not open the airspeed increase is
not
>>>as easily apparent. Under these condition the true airspeed is
3 to
>>>4 knots higher than stock.
>>>
>>>That's the basic physics and I hope that's understandable. If
>>>not....just say we use fairy dust.
>>>
> st" rel=nofollow
>target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listet=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
> llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: rumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance |
The Jaguar cowling was approved a year ago. There are 4 out there flying,
including mine. Average speed increase is 5-6 knots.
As for the $1000/knot myth, that was posted here a while back by someone other
than myself, that was in pre-1970 dollars (before inflation). In today's money,
it's about $2000/knot.
________________________________
From: "ArjayS@aol.com" <ArjayS@aol.com>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 6:15:26 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:LoPresti Nose Bowl Performance
COOL! As far as publishing the results, I agree, it's a GIGANTIC pain and it
never ends.
Rj
It isn't published because then I'd have to do a whole bunch of performance
testing to verify the improvements. Then, I'd have to change the POH. Then,
I'd have to do a supplement. Then . . . .
>
>I just did the cowling for cooling reasons.
>
>At 1000 MSL, if I push my plane, I can true out at 158 to 160 knots. It will
>comfortably go at 150 knots all day.
>
>
Message 18
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OK that's three
Well, thanks for the response guys. As soon as we get 10 signed up we'll
call you for delivery dates.
AND just so everone knows, we need groups of 10 because we get a discount
on hardware orders at 10. Thanks!
1. Bill Oneal
2. Ed Joseph
3. Marty McCasland
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