---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/01/10: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:09 AM - Deft/Pointer ELT (Gary Vogt) 2. 09:22 AM - Re: Deft/Pointer ELT (Linn Walters) 3. 09:41 AM - Re: Deft/Pointer ELT (Gary Vogt) 4. 10:33 AM - Re: You have your 10 (Gary Vogt) 5. 10:58 AM - Re: You have your 10 (ArjayS@AOL.COM) 6. 11:03 PM - Official TeamGrumman-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 7. 11:09 PM - Official TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:09 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Deft/Pointer ELT A customer bought an ELT battery for his DEFT-1 ELT and installed it today during the annual. The battery that came out was a BP1030, typically used in a pointer ELT. The battery that went in was a BP-1030. Problem is, the connector leads on the ELT were wire backwards to the battery leads; mind you, the previous installation had been backwards for 2 years. We decided to test it before we closed it up and installed it and, wouldn't you know, we let the smoke out. Before we could say WTF, a resistor fried. After I pulled the leads from the Molex connector and reinstalled them to match the battery, we tried it again. It worked. Weird. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:53 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Deft/Pointer ELT Wow Gary!! Free magic smoke??? That don't happen often. I find it amazing that they didn't install a diode to protect from reverse voltage application. So simple and so cheap. But then they wouldn't have a lucrative repair business. Linn Gary Vogt wrote: > A customer bought an ELT battery for his DEFT-1 ELT and installed it > today during the annual. The battery that came out was a BP1030, > typically used in a pointer ELT. The battery that went in was a > BP-1030. Problem is, the connector leads on the ELT were wire > backwards to the battery leads; mind you, the previous installation > had been backwards for 2 years. We decided to test it before we > closed it up and installed it and, wouldn't you know, we let the smoke > out. Before we could say WTF, a resistor fried. After I pulled the > leads from the Molex connector and reinstalled them to match the > battery, we tried it again. It worked. Weird. > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:22 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Deft/Pointer ELT maybe it wasn't required for FAA approval. Or, maybe the FAA requirements didn't require one and why put one in there? The required battery pack is a BP1015. Although, looking at the catalogs, it's difficult to tell which is really which. ________________________________ From: Linn Walters Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 9:22:34 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Deft/Pointer ELT Wow Gary!! Free magic smoke??? That don't happen often. I find it amazing that they didn't install a diode to protect from reverse voltage application. So simple and so cheap. But then they wouldn't have a lucrative repair business. Linn Gary Vogt wrote: A customer bought an ELT battery for his DEFT-1 ELT and installed it today during the annual. The battery that came out was a BP1030, typically used in a pointer ELT. The battery that went in was a BP-1030. Problem is, the connector leads on the ELT were wire backwards to the battery leads; mind you, the previous installation had been backwards for 2 years. We decided to test it before we closed it up and installed it and, wouldn't you know, we let the smoke out. Before we could say WTF, a resistor fried. After I pulled the leads from the Molex connector and reinstalled them to match the battery, we tried it again. It worked. Weird. > > >href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:35 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: You have your 10 Hi RJ, Good to see business is going well. You really should call it a nose bowl though. Though, saying you sell a cowling does sound sexier than selling a nose bowl. I've already price my cowling so low I can't afford to lower the price. If I dropped the price 20%, I wouldn't make any money at all. The baffles alone, for one cowling, costs me $550. For a while, I was offering to install and paint my cowling for $10,000. I got 4 takers at that price. I lost about $4000 to $5000 on each installation. Even now, after it's PMA'd and I can ship the parts, no takers at $8500. I have a theory about that. All plane owners have, in the back of their mind, this need to fix something on, or add something to, their plane. Whether it needs it or not. Each owner has a dollar amount that they plan to spend. They may not be conscience of it, but they do. They have an amount of agony points they are willing to spend. Agony points are the points spent, say, removing panels to install something they just bought, taking off the cowling or wheel pants, taking the plane to the avionics shop, to the FBO for annual, or building a whole plane. For example: I know of one guy who has a plane project that will take years to complete. The very last thing he needs right now is the engine. But, he has a brand new engine sitting on the floor, wrapped in plastic, waiting for his plane to be finished. Why? He has the money to buy the engine; he doesn't have the agony points to put it all together. Take your landing light for example. Great idea. No one really needs to see 100 yards ahead while taxiing at 30 mph, but, it doesn't take many agony points to install one. And it looks cool. They could better use those dollars toward an upgrade to their instrument panel. Get rid of that 30 year old Narco Com 11. But, then, there are those nagging agony points to take the plane to the shop, have them open it up, keep it for a few days, and replace the radio. With the landing light, they can be cool in a few hours. Take removing old wires for example. The shop says, "I can remove your DME for $1000. It'll take about a day." The owner says, "That much, huh. Really that long?" "Well, tell you what, you're a good customer. I can put Juan on it this afternoon and have it out for $500." "Great. It's a deal." So, instead of removing the DME, the associated wires, the coax and antenna, the fuse/circuit breaker and grounds, the shop slides the unit out, removes the tray, puts in a blank, and just like magic, no DME. Of course, the owner has no clue what antenna went to what and doesn't care. For all he knows, the DME is gone. That's all he cares about. I removed 8 coax comm cables from one plane. "8" They just went under the panel that had been cut from either end and the middle wire tie was still there, holding the coax. At Oshkosh, there are all sorts of gadgets for the plane and airplane owner from $10 to $10,000. Each dollar range has something for the unconscious dollar limit and each carries its own required agony points to see through to completion. My Jaguar cowling is $8500. But, there are a lot of agony points involved in getting it installed and painted. So, I'm working on something that costs less and requires few agony points. ________________________________ From: "ArjayS@aol.com" Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:37:36 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: You have your 10 Hi Guys!! The good news is we have our 10 cowls spoken for. I will contact everyone and with permission publish the list. This is a great example of working together to get a good price and for our part, understanding the needs of the group. I have no doubt we will do this yearly and run a similar special next year. In addition, you should know I took all the input from the group and implemented changes in the fit as well as a change in the diffuser which will yeild even better cooling. It's been a pleasure working with you! RjSiegel CEO/Lopresti Aviation Engineering ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:00 AM PST US From: ArjayS@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: You have your 10 Gary Good to hear from you. I think you're right about "nosebowl". Actually, I would like to find a name as creative as Roys (Hubba Caps, Wow Cowls, Boom Beams). Maybe "The Jimmy Durante". I really agree about the pain points. Here is what I think. Personally, I would approach Kevin Lancaster and make a deal for every new aircraft. I'm guessing you already have. (But that's just a guess). I think we all need to talk to Kevin and offer to see what we can do to help, because if he actua lly starts producing aircraft, we all benefit. Wanna talk to other suppliers and see if we can do anything as a group? Rj > Hi RJ, > > Good to see business is going well. -You really should call it a nose bowl > though. -Though, saying you sell a cowling does sound sexier than sell ing > a nose bowl. - > > I've already price my cowling so low I can't afford to lower the price. > -If I dropped the price 20%, I wouldn't make any money at all. -The baffles > alone, for one cowling, costs me $550. -For a while, I was offering to > install and paint my cowling for $10,000. -I got 4 takers at that pric e. -I lost > about $4000 to $5000 on each installation. -Even now, after it's PMA'd and > I can ship the parts, no takers at $8500. - > > I have a theory about that. > > All plane owners have, in the back of their mind, this need to fix > something on, or add something to, their plane. -Whether it needs it or not. -Each > owner has a dollar amount that they plan to spend. -They may not be > conscience of it, but they do. -They have an amount of agony points th ey are > willing to spend. -Agony points are the points spent, say,-removing panels to > install something they just bought, taking off the cowling or wheel pant s, > taking the plane to the avionics shop, to the FBO for annual, or buildin g a > whole plane. -For example: I know of one guy who has a plane project that > will take years to complete. -The very last thing he needs right now is the > engine. -But, he has a brand new engine sitting on the floor, wrapped in > plastic, waiting for his plane to be finished. -Why? -He has the mon ey to buy > the engine; he doesn't have the agony points to put it all together. - > > Take your landing light for example. -Great idea. -No one really nee ds to > see 100 yards ahead while taxiing at 30 mph, but, it doesn't take many > agony points to install one. -And it looks cool. -They could better use those > dollars toward an upgrade to their instrument panel. -Get rid of that 30 > year old Narco Com 11. -But, then, there are those nagging agony point s to > take the plane to the shop, have them open it up, keep it for a few days , and > replace the radio. - With the landing light, they can be cool in a few > hours. > > Take removing old wires for example. -The shop says, "I can remove you r > DME for $1000. -It'll take about a day." -The owner says, "That much , huh. > -Really that long?" -"Well, tell you what, you're a good customer. -I can put > Juan on it this afternoon and have it out for $500." -"Great. It's a > deal." -So, instead of removing the DME, the associated wires, the coa x and > antenna, the fuse/circuit breaker and grounds, the shop slides the unit out, > removes the tray, puts in a blank, and just like magic, no DME. -Of co urse, > the owner has no clue what antenna went to what and doesn't care. -For all > he knows, the DME is gone. -That's all he cares about. > > I removed 8 coax comm cables from one plane. -"8" -They just went un der > the panel that had been cut from either end and the middle wire tie was still > there, holding the coax. - > > At Oshkosh, there are all sorts of gadgets for the plane and airplane > owner from $10 to $10,000. -Each dollar range has something for the > unconscious-dollar limit and each carries its own required agony point s to see through > to completion. -My Jaguar cowling is $8500. -But, there are a lot of agony > points involved in getting it installed and painted. - > > So, I'm working on something that costs less and requires few agony > points. > > From: "ArjayS@aol.com" Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 6:37:36 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: You have your 10 Hi Guys!! The good news is we have our 10 cowls spoken for. I will contact everyone and with permission publish the list. This is a great style="position:fi xed"> ======================== ator = much much ======================== ======================== http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:55 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Official TeamGrumman-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the TeamGrumman-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete TeamGrumman-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/TeamGrumman-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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TeamGrumman-List Policy Statement The purpose of the TeamGrumman-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:30 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Official TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete TeamGrumman-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/TeamGrumman-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the TeamGrumman-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the TeamGrumman-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. TeamGrumman-List Policy Statement The purpose of the TeamGrumman-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.