Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:19 AM - Partial Flap Takeoffs (Tom Quinn)
2. 05:32 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
3. 05:36 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Tom Quinn)
4. 05:44 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
5. 06:07 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Jim Fudge)
6. 06:12 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (flyv35b)
7. 06:25 AM - Re: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead (flyv35b)
8. 07:06 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs ()
9. 08:13 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (mmacdonald@wi.rr.com)
10. 08:16 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Linn Walters)
11. 08:16 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (flyv35b)
12. 08:17 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Bob Hodo)
13. 11:09 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Gary Vogt)
14. 09:32 PM - grumman wing (Anthony Dymond)
15. 09:48 PM - Re: grumman wing (Linn Walters)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Partial Flap Takeoffs |
For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger
owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews.
The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has
anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
Tom Quinn
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
Absolutly.
Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original
configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three run
s
without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they
started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside
" of the
POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification
procedure.
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
>
> For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some
> Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their
> reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeof
fs. Has
> anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
> -
>
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| Subject: | Partial Flap Takeoffs |
RJ,
Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some
flaps?
Absolutly.
Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original
configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three runs
without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they
started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside"
of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification
procedure.
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger
owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews.
The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has
anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
High, hot, humid, rain
They wanted to use all available thrust to overcome inertia.
> RJ,
> ---- Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling
to dump
> some flaps?
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Partial Flap Takeoffs |
I have operated off of 1800 - 2500 grass strips for the last 20 odd years
with my 79 Cheetah. The strips always have over 100 foot pine trees on each
end.
On hot days I use half tanks or less and I put in about 30 degrees of flaps
before I start my takeoff roll. It seems that the flaps reduce the weight
on the mains earlier and reduce the tire friction which results in a shorter
takeoff run. I use the same settings on paved runways and the Cheetah gets
off the ground much earlier.
Jim
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Quinn
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:35 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs
RJ,
Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some
flaps?
Absolutly.
Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original
configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three runs
without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they
started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside"
of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification
procedure.
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger
owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews.
The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has
anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
"Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some
flaps?"
Because flaps add drag as well as lift. And adding flaps just before
rotation speed reduces drag in the early part of the takeoff roll for
supposedly better acceleration, although it may be very small and not
even measurable.
Planes with manual flaps can start the takeoff roll without flaps and
then just at rotation you can pull back on the elevator and pull up on
the flap handle to the first notch and the plane will get off the ground
at a slower speed. On dirt and grass and snow where the tire rolling
resistance is considerably more than on hard asphalt it is beneficial to
reduce the weight on the tires and get off the ground to reduce the drag
(from the tires) as soon as possible, then accelerate in ground effect
and climb out.
Cliff
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead |
In addition, some of the spinners have holes that are so elongated and
oversize that the original precise location relative to the back plate
is in question. Take a look sometime at the tip of the spinner with the
engine idling and you can see one that is precessing. This puts a
centrifugal force on the bulkhead and stresses it.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Linn Walters
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead
I wouldn't think the material would be different ..... the many blanks
are cut from one sheet of material. However, I think Cliff is close
...... if there's any wobble, however small, in the spinner, the
bulkhead plate will suffer. I'd look for black dust on the bulkhead and
where it meets the spinner for a clue ..... on a busted bulkhead. The
fact that this one has paint on it means it will fit a little more
snugly.
Some of the experimental guys lay some electrical tape on the bulkhead
flange to cushion the spinner. Works on my Pitts.
Linn
On 9/1/2010 8:03 PM, flyv35b wrote:
I think this bulkhead is made of a different material because it has
laster longer than what I would expect. That's all.
I think it's just the luck of the draw due to spinner alignment and
engine balance.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead
I apologize if I made it sound like painting the bulkhead black
meant it was made out of a different material. I only commented that
the bulkhead was painted black and that it was not alodined.
I think this bulkhead is made of a different material because it
has laster longer than what I would expect. That's all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:27:54 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead
Just because it's painted black doesn't mean the material is
different. Garner has the drawing. What is the material call out on
the drawing?
I have a couple of customers at least that have aluminum forward
bulkheads that are quite a few years old with no cracks.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt
To: Teamgrumman List
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:10 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead
As I'm sure a lot of you know, the forward spinner bulkhead is
notorious for cracking. About 2 years is all I expect one to last.
I've tried everything from different tightening patterns of the screws
to over-boring the holes by .010 inches. Nothing seems to work. Prop
imbalance may contribute, but who knows.
I'm doing an annual on a Tiger that has a forward spinner
bulkhead that was installed in 1990. This spinner shows no signs of
cracking. What is immediately noticeable is it's painted black. It is
NOT alodined/plated. The black paint is chipped and pealing and worn
through in many places. I talked to Garner and he told me he knew of no
changes to the manufacturing specifications. I would like to know what
this material is. I doubt it 2024.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.co
m">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
Almost hate to get into this flap thing, as it is kind of like arguing
over politics or religion, at least on the GG list. That being said, I
routinely use 1/3 flaps on takeoff on my 2600 foot grass strip. The
difference is more than noticeable. On a hot, wet day when the grass is
a little high, a no flap takeoff can make for more excitement than you
may want. 1/3 flaps makes it a none event. Don't believe it, come on
down and give it a try.
Claude
From: Tom Quinn
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:16 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs
For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some
Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their
reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during
takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
Tom Quinn
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 5218 (20100622) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
While working on my private certificate the flight school's curriculum
had us use 1/3 flaps for soft field takeoffs, though the POH dord not
state they should be used.
Mark MacDonald
On Sep 2, 2010, at 6:16 AM, "Tom Quinn" <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com> wrote:
> For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that
> some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs
> in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps
> during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
>
>
> Tom Quinn
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
It doesn't matter much on the AA-1s since the flaps are ...... well,
just there. ;-)
However, for soft/grass strips, in an airplane that has flaps that
really work ...... I'll keep flaps up until about 10 kts below flying
speed, and then lower full flaps ...... just to take the weight off as
Jim notes. That allows the best initial acceleration (less drag from
the flaps) and then the shortest runway use. IMHO, of course! YMMV
Linn
do not archive
On 9/2/2010 9:06 AM, Jim Fudge wrote:
>
> I have operated off of 1800 - 2500 grass strips for the last 20 odd
> years with my 79 Cheetah. The strips always have over 100 foot pine
> trees on each end.
>
> On hot days I use half tanks or less and I put in about 30 degrees of
> flaps before I start my takeoff roll. It seems that the flaps reduce
> the weight on the mains earlier and reduce the tire friction which
> results in a shorter takeoff run. I use the same settings on paved
> runways and the Cheetah gets off the ground much earlier.
>
> Jim
>
> *From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Tom Quinn
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:35 AM
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs
>
> RJ,
>
> Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump
> some flaps?
>
> Absolutly.
> Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the
> original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport.
> After three runs without breaking ground they decided to dump in some
> flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure
> was adopted "outside" of the POH. "Outside" because it does not
> conform to the FAA certification procedure.
>
> Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
>
>
> For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some
> Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in
> their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps
> during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List*
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> **
> * *
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
Most manufacturers recommend using flaps for short and soft field
take-offs. While Grummans do not have Fowler type flaps, which are much
more effective at increasing lift, I personally think that using flaps
on a Grumman on unimproved strips is beneficial. I would question the
30 degrees that you mention as I think that the drag is probably
excessive at that amount and that lift does not increase beyond a
certain lesser angle. Typically this optimum lift angle is somewhere
around the same position as where the aileron is at full deflection. On
a Grumman this may be a little as 10 degrees, while on planes with
Fowler flaps many manufacturers seem to say that 20 degrees is about the
maximum or optimum. The Cheetah and Tiger have a maximum flap travel of
45 degrees and I personally would not use more than 1/3 flaps or 15
degrees for any situation. Since the POH does not recommend using flaps
any use puts us in an experimental category mode and only a lot of
carefully controlled testing would show where the optimum flap position
might be for these out of the ordinary situations.
It would be interesting to see curves of wing lift and drag coefficients
versus angle of attack for various flap settings for the Grumman wing.
That would tell the story.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Fudge
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs
I have operated off of 1800 - 2500 grass strips for the last 20 odd
years with my 79 Cheetah. The strips always have over 100 foot pine
trees on each end.
On hot days I use half tanks or less and I put in about 30 degrees of
flaps before I start my takeoff roll. It seems that the flaps reduce
the weight on the mains earlier and reduce the tire friction which
results in a shorter takeoff run. I use the same settings on paved
runways and the Cheetah gets off the ground much earlier.
Jim
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Quinn
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:35 AM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs
RJ,
Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump
some flaps?
Absolutly.
Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the
original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport.
After three runs without breaking ground they decided to dump in some
flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure
was adopted "outside" of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform
to the FAA certification procedure.
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some
Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their
reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during
takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff?
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic
s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 12
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| Subject: | Partial Flap Takeoffs |
I can think of two reasons to wait before putting in 7.5 to 10 degrees of f
laps, but both are negligible.
1)- They won't be adding drag before the extra lift is needed.- (But th
ey don't add much drag anyway at those settings.
2)- Debris is never kicked up off the runway more aggressively than when
the engine is operated at max power... i.e. takeoff.- Even though the exp
osure from the bottom side of the flap is only slightly more towards the pe
rpendicular, it does offer a little bit more opportunity for a small rock t
o strike the skin down there.
Last winter I landed at Hardwick Field in Cleveland Tn.- A snow a couple
days earlier had caused them to put salt on the runway.- (Never saw that
before.)- On take-off, the first 1000 feet or so was relatively clean fro
m other prop blasts, but the further down field you went the more salt ther
e was.
I opted to roll in "some" flaps just prior to rotation, 48 to 50 knots, may
be.- I was surprised at how effective this was at making the cheetah just
hop off the ground.
IIRC our aileron stops allow for 7.5 deg down and 15 deg up.- It is quite
simple to peg the yoke to the right stop and look out at the left flap and
lower it until it's trailing edge matches the aileron deflection, just so
that you know what 7.5 deg looks like.
Bob Hodo
GADsden, AL
=0A=0A=0A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs |
I flew out of Lancaster, CA for 22 years . . . . in all sorts of wind, heat,
wind, cold, heat, oh, and did I mention, wind. Fox field has a very long runway
to accommodate fire tankers. I bought my first Cheetah in 1984. It had a very
tired engine. It's a good place to practice stuff. Stuff like different
baffles, cowlings, flap settings, aileron settings. But, I'm getting ahead of
myself.
North of Lancaster is a little shit-hole of a town called Rosamond. The, quote,
"Fly-in community" in Rosamond has a pretty short runway (anyone interested in
a
hangar home, in a shitty little town on the desert, complete with 60 mph winds,
for $400,000? A similar home in Alta Sierra just 10 miles north of Auburn is
$400,000. Oh, wait, they are the same.). Sometime around 1987-88, I remember
watching a Comanche take-off from Rosamond using flaps. I decided to give it a
go. Since I couldn't tell how much flap he used, I put in all the flaps. About
halfway down the runway, I knew I wasn't going anywhere. So, taxi back. This
time, 1/2 flaps. I got off the ground, but just barely. After that, I fooled
around with taking off using flaps down at various settings. And when I say
fooled around, I mean just that. What a great way to waste a weekend . . . or
many. I made a tape strip and attached it to my flap so I could figure out what
flaps I was using without relying on that thing in the console. Through 1991,
I
tracked the effects on many different flap take-off positions. After a while,
I
got to know how this particular plane behaved during takeoff at different flap
settings.
Couple of things: At 1/3 flaps or more (i.e., greater than 15 degrees flap
deflection), the angle of attack is such that the flow over the top of the flap
is no longer attached. If you can keep the nose way down and go really fast,
1/3 flaps works OK. If LoPresti dropped in 1/3 flaps at rotational speed, that
would have worked fine. By then, the airflow over the wing is pretty well
established and the plane wants to fly anyway.
Any flap deflection over 5 degrees ( and less than 15 degrees) pays off in
additional lift. Up to 10 degrees flap deflection during the take-off roll has
little or no effect on time to accelerate to take-off speed. Greater than 10
degrees and less than 15 degrees, it does begin to hurt the time to accelerate
but not by much. Full aileron deflection is supposed to be around 7.5 degrees.
(though I have seen as little as 5 and as much as 10 degrees).
Bottom line: any flap setting where the flap is just at the full deflection of
the aileron (or slightly over) will get the plane off the ground earlier without
hurting the take-off roll. Ya gots ta remember ta retrack the flaps once you
start picking up speed.
Anyone know John Coze? I flew with him a few weeks ago. He has a 6-cylinder
Tiger. And it's heavy. 1685# empty weight. He carries a 40 lb tool bag on his
hat shelf. The bracket he uses to hold the tools in place probably weighs 5
lbs. He weighs about 170-175. With him, his 4 GPSs, tools, and half tanks, his
plane was already near 2100 lbs. I was light with half tanks. I figured my
plane at 1410 lbs, me at 180, and half tanks at 150 lbs. My TO weight was
around 1750 lbs. We did a flight-of-2 take-off. I figured, being lighter, I
could at least stay pretty close to him during a climb. Boy was I wrong. By
4000 feet MSL (1500 foot AGL) he had 1000 feet on me. Flat out, side-by-side,
he is about 1 to 2 knots faster than my Tiger. There is no substitute for
horsepower. At cruise, say 140 knots, he could dial down to 10 gph or so.
About the same as me. Sure would be nice to have 260 hp without the weight
penalty.
________________________________
From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 7:24:56 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs
I can think of two reasons to wait before putting in 7.5 to 10 degrees of flaps,
but both are negligible.
1) They won't be adding drag before the extra lift is needed. (But they don't
add much drag anyway at those settings.
2) Debris is never kicked up off the runway more aggressively than when the
engine is operated at max power... i.e. takeoff. Even though the exposure from
the bottom side of the flap is only slightly more towards the perpendicular, it
does offer a little bit more opportunity for a small rock to strike the skin
down there.
Last winter I landed at Hardwick Field in Cleveland Tn. A snow a couple days
earlier had caused them to put salt on the runway. (Never saw that before.) On
take-off, the first 1000 feet or so was relatively clean from other prop blasts,
but the further down field you went the more salt there was.
I opted to roll in "some" flaps just prior to rotation, 48 to 50 knots, maybe.
I was surprised at how effective this was at making the cheetah just hop off the
ground.
IIRC our aileron stops allow for 7.5 deg down and 15 deg up. It is quite simple
to peg the yoke to the right stop and look out at the left flap and lower it
until it's trailing edge matches the aileron deflection, just so that you know
what 7.5 deg looks like.
Bob Hodo
GADsden, AL
Message 14
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Hi Gang,
First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the wife
talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85
I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just down the
road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in the leading
edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=92t allow a
ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop.
So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big deal -
-
it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing.
Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell me it is a
big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy
a wing. Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because
of
the bonded construction
What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in t
he
wing?
Regards,
Tony D
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: grumman wing |
On 9/3/2010 12:24 AM, Anthony Dymond wrote:
>
> Hi Gang,
>
> First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the
> wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85
>
> I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just down
> the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in
> the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and
> wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the
shop.
>
> So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big de
al
> -- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the
> wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell
> me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the
> country and buy a wing.
>
Really only one place to go ..... Fletchair. Supports our whole fleet
=2E.... and yes, us too.
>
> Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of
> the bonded construction
>
Only inferior shops have a problem. Fletchair will reskin it.
>
> What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole
> in the wing?
>
Hmmmm. An eye for an eye .........
Linn
Truthfully, you'll get better answers from those more qualified.
Linn
You'll
> Regards,
> Tony D
> *
>
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