---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/02/10: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:19 AM - Partial Flap Takeoffs (Tom Quinn) 2. 05:32 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (ArjayS@AOL.COM) 3. 05:36 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Tom Quinn) 4. 05:44 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (ArjayS@AOL.COM) 5. 06:07 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Jim Fudge) 6. 06:12 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (flyv35b) 7. 06:25 AM - Re: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead (flyv35b) 8. 07:06 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs () 9. 08:13 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (mmacdonald@wi.rr.com) 10. 08:16 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Linn Walters) 11. 08:16 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (flyv35b) 12. 08:17 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Bob Hodo) 13. 11:09 AM - Re: Partial Flap Takeoffs (Gary Vogt) 14. 09:32 PM - grumman wing (Anthony Dymond) 15. 09:48 PM - Re: grumman wing (Linn Walters) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:13 AM PST US From: "Tom Quinn" Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? Tom Quinn ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:16 AM PST US From: ArjayS@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs Absolutly. Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three run s without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside " of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification procedure. Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering > > For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some > Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their > reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeof fs. Has > anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? > - > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:22 AM PST US From: "Tom Quinn" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs RJ, Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some flaps? Absolutly. Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three runs without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside" of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification procedure. Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:00 AM PST US From: ArjayS@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs High, hot, humid, rain They wanted to use all available thrust to overcome inertia. > RJ, > ---- Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump > some flaps? > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:11 AM PST US From: "Jim Fudge" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs I have operated off of 1800 - 2500 grass strips for the last 20 odd years with my 79 Cheetah. The strips always have over 100 foot pine trees on each end. On hot days I use half tanks or less and I put in about 30 degrees of flaps before I start my takeoff roll. It seems that the flaps reduce the weight on the mains earlier and reduce the tire friction which results in a shorter takeoff run. I use the same settings on paved runways and the Cheetah gets off the ground much earlier. Jim From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:35 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs RJ, Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some flaps? Absolutly. Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three runs without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside" of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification procedure. Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:06 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs "Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some flaps?" Because flaps add drag as well as lift. And adding flaps just before rotation speed reduces drag in the early part of the takeoff roll for supposedly better acceleration, although it may be very small and not even measurable. Planes with manual flaps can start the takeoff roll without flaps and then just at rotation you can pull back on the elevator and pull up on the flap handle to the first notch and the plane will get off the ground at a slower speed. On dirt and grass and snow where the tire rolling resistance is considerably more than on hard asphalt it is beneficial to reduce the weight on the tires and get off the ground to reduce the drag (from the tires) as soon as possible, then accelerate in ground effect and climb out. Cliff ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:02 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead In addition, some of the spinners have holes that are so elongated and oversize that the original precise location relative to the back plate is in question. Take a look sometime at the tip of the spinner with the engine idling and you can see one that is precessing. This puts a centrifugal force on the bulkhead and stresses it. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Linn Walters To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:24 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead I wouldn't think the material would be different ..... the many blanks are cut from one sheet of material. However, I think Cliff is close ...... if there's any wobble, however small, in the spinner, the bulkhead plate will suffer. I'd look for black dust on the bulkhead and where it meets the spinner for a clue ..... on a busted bulkhead. The fact that this one has paint on it means it will fit a little more snugly. Some of the experimental guys lay some electrical tape on the bulkhead flange to cushion the spinner. Works on my Pitts. Linn On 9/1/2010 8:03 PM, flyv35b wrote: I think this bulkhead is made of a different material because it has laster longer than what I would expect. That's all. I think it's just the luck of the draw due to spinner alignment and engine balance. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Vogt To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:43 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead I apologize if I made it sound like painting the bulkhead black meant it was made out of a different material. I only commented that the bulkhead was painted black and that it was not alodined. I think this bulkhead is made of a different material because it has laster longer than what I would expect. That's all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: flyv35b To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:27:54 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead Just because it's painted black doesn't mean the material is different. Garner has the drawing. What is the material call out on the drawing? I have a couple of customers at least that have aluminum forward bulkheads that are quite a few years old with no cracks. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Vogt To: Teamgrumman List Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Tiger forward spinner bulkhead As I'm sure a lot of you know, the forward spinner bulkhead is notorious for cracking. About 2 years is all I expect one to last. I've tried everything from different tightening patterns of the screws to over-boring the holes by .010 inches. Nothing seems to work. Prop imbalance may contribute, but who knows. I'm doing an annual on a Tiger that has a forward spinner bulkhead that was installed in 1990. This spinner shows no signs of cracking. What is immediately noticeable is it's painted black. It is NOT alodined/plated. The black paint is chipped and pealing and worn through in many places. I talked to Garner and he told me he knew of no changes to the manufacturing specifications. I would like to know what this material is. I doubt it 2024. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.co m">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:19 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs Almost hate to get into this flap thing, as it is kind of like arguing over politics or religion, at least on the GG list. That being said, I routinely use 1/3 flaps on takeoff on my 2600 foot grass strip. The difference is more than noticeable. On a hot, wet day when the grass is a little high, a no flap takeoff can make for more excitement than you may want. 1/3 flaps makes it a none event. Don't believe it, come on down and give it a try. Claude From: Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:16 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? Tom Quinn __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5218 (20100622) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5218 (20100622) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:21 AM PST US From: mmacdonald@wi.rr.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs While working on my private certificate the flight school's curriculum had us use 1/3 flaps for soft field takeoffs, though the POH dord not state they should be used. Mark MacDonald On Sep 2, 2010, at 6:16 AM, "Tom Quinn" wrote: > For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that > some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs > in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps > during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? > > > Tom Quinn > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:26 AM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs It doesn't matter much on the AA-1s since the flaps are ...... well, just there. ;-) However, for soft/grass strips, in an airplane that has flaps that really work ...... I'll keep flaps up until about 10 kts below flying speed, and then lower full flaps ...... just to take the weight off as Jim notes. That allows the best initial acceleration (less drag from the flaps) and then the shortest runway use. IMHO, of course! YMMV Linn do not archive On 9/2/2010 9:06 AM, Jim Fudge wrote: > > I have operated off of 1800 - 2500 grass strips for the last 20 odd > years with my 79 Cheetah. The strips always have over 100 foot pine > trees on each end. > > On hot days I use half tanks or less and I put in about 30 degrees of > flaps before I start my takeoff roll. It seems that the flaps reduce > the weight on the mains earlier and reduce the tire friction which > results in a shorter takeoff run. I use the same settings on paved > runways and the Cheetah gets off the ground much earlier. > > Jim > > *From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Tom Quinn > *Sent:* Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:35 AM > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs > > RJ, > > Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump > some flaps? > > Absolutly. > Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the > original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. > After three runs without breaking ground they decided to dump in some > flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure > was adopted "outside" of the POH. "Outside" because it does not > conform to the FAA certification procedure. > > Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering > > > For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some > Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in > their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps > during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? > > > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > ** > * * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:32 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs Most manufacturers recommend using flaps for short and soft field take-offs. While Grummans do not have Fowler type flaps, which are much more effective at increasing lift, I personally think that using flaps on a Grumman on unimproved strips is beneficial. I would question the 30 degrees that you mention as I think that the drag is probably excessive at that amount and that lift does not increase beyond a certain lesser angle. Typically this optimum lift angle is somewhere around the same position as where the aileron is at full deflection. On a Grumman this may be a little as 10 degrees, while on planes with Fowler flaps many manufacturers seem to say that 20 degrees is about the maximum or optimum. The Cheetah and Tiger have a maximum flap travel of 45 degrees and I personally would not use more than 1/3 flaps or 15 degrees for any situation. Since the POH does not recommend using flaps any use puts us in an experimental category mode and only a lot of carefully controlled testing would show where the optimum flap position might be for these out of the ordinary situations. It would be interesting to see curves of wing lift and drag coefficients versus angle of attack for various flap settings for the Grumman wing. That would tell the story. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Fudge To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 6:06 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs I have operated off of 1800 - 2500 grass strips for the last 20 odd years with my 79 Cheetah. The strips always have over 100 foot pine trees on each end. On hot days I use half tanks or less and I put in about 30 degrees of flaps before I start my takeoff roll. It seems that the flaps reduce the weight on the mains earlier and reduce the tire friction which results in a shorter takeoff run. I use the same settings on paved runways and the Cheetah gets off the ground much earlier. Jim From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 7:35 AM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs RJ, Thanks! Why would the wait until after they start rolling to dump some flaps? Absolutly. Jim Bede tells a story echoed by Roy (Lopresti) about testing the original configuration at a high, hot, wet, short Colorado airport. After three runs without breaking ground they decided to dump in some flaps AFTER they started rolling. That did the trick and the procedure was adopted "outside" of the POH. "Outside" because it does not conform to the FAA certification procedure. Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering For the second time in a row the Aviation Consumer mentioned that some Tiger owners use partial flaps (1/3rd) for short field takeoffs in their reviews. The POH never mentions using any setting of flaps during takeoffs. Has anyone or recommend using flaps during takeoff? http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:27 AM PST US From: Bob Hodo Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs I can think of two reasons to wait before putting in 7.5 to 10 degrees of f laps, but both are negligible. 1)- They won't be adding drag before the extra lift is needed.- (But th ey don't add much drag anyway at those settings. 2)- Debris is never kicked up off the runway more aggressively than when the engine is operated at max power... i.e. takeoff.- Even though the exp osure from the bottom side of the flap is only slightly more towards the pe rpendicular, it does offer a little bit more opportunity for a small rock t o strike the skin down there. Last winter I landed at Hardwick Field in Cleveland Tn.- A snow a couple days earlier had caused them to put salt on the runway.- (Never saw that before.)- On take-off, the first 1000 feet or so was relatively clean fro m other prop blasts, but the further down field you went the more salt ther e was. I opted to roll in "some" flaps just prior to rotation, 48 to 50 knots, may be.- I was surprised at how effective this was at making the cheetah just hop off the ground. IIRC our aileron stops allow for 7.5 deg down and 15 deg up.- It is quite simple to peg the yoke to the right stop and look out at the left flap and lower it until it's trailing edge matches the aileron deflection, just so that you know what 7.5 deg looks like. Bob Hodo GADsden, AL =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:13 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs I flew out of Lancaster, CA for 22 years . . . . in all sorts of wind, heat, wind, cold, heat, oh, and did I mention, wind. Fox field has a very long runway to accommodate fire tankers. I bought my first Cheetah in 1984. It had a very tired engine. It's a good place to practice stuff. Stuff like different baffles, cowlings, flap settings, aileron settings. But, I'm getting ahead of myself. North of Lancaster is a little shit-hole of a town called Rosamond. The, quote, "Fly-in community" in Rosamond has a pretty short runway (anyone interested in a hangar home, in a shitty little town on the desert, complete with 60 mph winds, for $400,000? A similar home in Alta Sierra just 10 miles north of Auburn is $400,000. Oh, wait, they are the same.). Sometime around 1987-88, I remember watching a Comanche take-off from Rosamond using flaps. I decided to give it a go. Since I couldn't tell how much flap he used, I put in all the flaps. About halfway down the runway, I knew I wasn't going anywhere. So, taxi back. This time, 1/2 flaps. I got off the ground, but just barely. After that, I fooled around with taking off using flaps down at various settings. And when I say fooled around, I mean just that. What a great way to waste a weekend . . . or many. I made a tape strip and attached it to my flap so I could figure out what flaps I was using without relying on that thing in the console. Through 1991, I tracked the effects on many different flap take-off positions. After a while, I got to know how this particular plane behaved during takeoff at different flap settings. Couple of things: At 1/3 flaps or more (i.e., greater than 15 degrees flap deflection), the angle of attack is such that the flow over the top of the flap is no longer attached. If you can keep the nose way down and go really fast, 1/3 flaps works OK. If LoPresti dropped in 1/3 flaps at rotational speed, that would have worked fine. By then, the airflow over the wing is pretty well established and the plane wants to fly anyway. Any flap deflection over 5 degrees ( and less than 15 degrees) pays off in additional lift. Up to 10 degrees flap deflection during the take-off roll has little or no effect on time to accelerate to take-off speed. Greater than 10 degrees and less than 15 degrees, it does begin to hurt the time to accelerate but not by much. Full aileron deflection is supposed to be around 7.5 degrees. (though I have seen as little as 5 and as much as 10 degrees). Bottom line: any flap setting where the flap is just at the full deflection of the aileron (or slightly over) will get the plane off the ground earlier without hurting the take-off roll. Ya gots ta remember ta retrack the flaps once you start picking up speed. Anyone know John Coze? I flew with him a few weeks ago. He has a 6-cylinder Tiger. And it's heavy. 1685# empty weight. He carries a 40 lb tool bag on his hat shelf. The bracket he uses to hold the tools in place probably weighs 5 lbs. He weighs about 170-175. With him, his 4 GPSs, tools, and half tanks, his plane was already near 2100 lbs. I was light with half tanks. I figured my plane at 1410 lbs, me at 180, and half tanks at 150 lbs. My TO weight was around 1750 lbs. We did a flight-of-2 take-off. I figured, being lighter, I could at least stay pretty close to him during a climb. Boy was I wrong. By 4000 feet MSL (1500 foot AGL) he had 1000 feet on me. Flat out, side-by-side, he is about 1 to 2 knots faster than my Tiger. There is no substitute for horsepower. At cruise, say 140 knots, he could dial down to 10 gph or so. About the same as me. Sure would be nice to have 260 hp without the weight penalty. ________________________________ From: Bob Hodo Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 7:24:56 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Partial Flap Takeoffs I can think of two reasons to wait before putting in 7.5 to 10 degrees of flaps, but both are negligible. 1) They won't be adding drag before the extra lift is needed. (But they don't add much drag anyway at those settings. 2) Debris is never kicked up off the runway more aggressively than when the engine is operated at max power... i.e. takeoff. Even though the exposure from the bottom side of the flap is only slightly more towards the perpendicular, it does offer a little bit more opportunity for a small rock to strike the skin down there. Last winter I landed at Hardwick Field in Cleveland Tn. A snow a couple days earlier had caused them to put salt on the runway. (Never saw that before.) On take-off, the first 1000 feet or so was relatively clean from other prop blasts, but the further down field you went the more salt there was. I opted to roll in "some" flaps just prior to rotation, 48 to 50 knots, maybe. I was surprised at how effective this was at making the cheetah just hop off the ground. IIRC our aileron stops allow for 7.5 deg down and 15 deg up. It is quite simple to peg the yoke to the right stop and look out at the left flap and lower it until it's trailing edge matches the aileron deflection, just so that you know what 7.5 deg looks like. Bob Hodo GADsden, AL ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:27 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing From: Anthony Dymond Hi Gang, First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85 I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just down the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop. So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big deal - - it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy a wing. Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of the bonded construction What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in t he wing? Regards, Tony D ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:51 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing On 9/3/2010 12:24 AM, Anthony Dymond wrote: > > Hi Gang, > > First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the > wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85 > > I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just down > the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in > the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and > wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop. > > So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big de al > -- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the > wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell > me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the > country and buy a wing. > Really only one place to go ..... Fletchair. Supports our whole fleet =2E.... and yes, us too. > > Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of > the bonded construction > Only inferior shops have a problem. Fletchair will reskin it. > > What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole > in the wing? > Hmmmm. An eye for an eye ......... Linn Truthfully, you'll get better answers from those more qualified. Linn You'll > Regards, > Tony D > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.