Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:42 AM - Re: grumman wing (Garner Rice)
2. 10:49 AM - Re: grumman wing (Gary Vogt)
3. 11:57 AM - Re: grumman wing (flyv35b)
4. 04:04 PM - Re: grumman wing (flyv35b)
5. 09:11 PM - repairing grumman wings (Kevin Lancaster)
Message 1
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Several years ago=2C a tiger out of Tulsa rand off the runway and smashed t
he inboard panel. The tanks would not hole fuel. Pour it in and it would po
ur right out. We sent a pilot (who now works for the FAA) up there and got
a ferry permit and flew it back. Fixed the plane and returned it back.
A year or so ago there was a traveler that had a tanks leak and the FAA did
n't want to issue a ferry permit on the basis it wan't safe to fly. I had t
hat fed talk to the the fed that did the ferry flight with the smashed wing
. Got the ferry permit and flew it here for the repair.
Typically when the FAA doesn't understand the situation or construction=2C
they will opt to the side of safety=2C ( a plane not in the air is safer th
an one in the air) The Grumman wings are non-structural. I think the owner
should expected an educated response from the FAA of what they base their a
nswers on=2C and in writing. They have clear cut regulations and orders tha
t they must follow. Since we are paying them=2C I dont think it is too much
to ask.
I just drove to 1700 miles to pick up a grumman. One wing had a hole and th
e other had a dent. If it wasn't for the bent propeller=2C I would have not
hesitated to get a ferry permit and fly it instead of hauling it.
The old cliche " education is expensive=2C but ignorance is costly". The sh
op that gave the original estimate was about 20k more than our estimate=2C
not because they are a bad shop=2C they are a good shop=2C but because the
y lacked "grumman experience". That estimate could have totaled the aircraf
t=2C leaving the owner with a check and planeless. Threre are a lot of shop
s that are afraid of the bonded construction and I think it is just because
of lack of experience and not because of any complexity of construction.
The key to grumman success=2C spend the time and money up front so you dont
spend time and money. Dont defer maintenance=2C and oh yes=2C learn to fly
a grumman.
Garner
FletchAir
From: pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing
On 9/3/2010 12:24 AM=2C Anthony Dymond wrote:
Hi Gang=2C
First off=2C I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the wi
fe talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85
I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord=2C CA=2C just down
the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in the le
ading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=92t a
llow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop.
So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big deal -
- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing.
Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell me it is
a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the country and
buy a wing.Really only one place to go ..... Fletchair. Supports our whol
e fleet ..... and yes=2C us too.
Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of the
bonded constructionOnly inferior shops have a problem. Fletchair will res
kin it.
What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in t
he wing?Hmmmm. An eye for an eye .........
Linn
Truthfully=2C you'll get better answers from those more qualified.
Linn
You'll
Regards=2C
Tony D
om/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumm
an-List
s.com">http://forums.matronics.com
om/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: grumman wing |
I've seen entire Tigers/Cheetahs riveted back together. It isn't pretty, b
ut =0Aanything is possible. =0A=0ATo repair a hole, there is a section in
the maintenance manual that details how =0Ato build a doubler and patch. I
t really isn't that big of a deal. =0A=0AFletcher has reskinned entire win
gs.=0A=0ACome on up to Auburn and I'll show you a partially disassembled wi
ng.=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Anthony D
ymond <amdymond@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu
, September 2, 2010 9:24:24 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing=0A
=0A=0AHi Gang,=0AFirst off, I don=99t have a Grumman but I wish I did
. Almost have the wife talked =0Ainto this you know how that goe
s=0AI do have a question. I=99m in a flying club at Concord
, CA, just down the road =0Afrom Gary. One of the guys just put a signific
ant hole in the leading edge of =0Athe wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a
fit and wouldn=99t allow a ferry permit =0Aso the wing went off on a
truck to the shop.=0ASo I=99m talking to some of the folks and they
tell me It=99s no big deal -- it=99s =0Aeasy to get a replaceme
nt skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing. Then I ask =0Aabout the same s
ituation in a Tiger =93 and they tell me it is a big deal and I =0Awo
uld have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy a wing. Then
=0Asomeone else tells me most shops won=99t work on this because of t
he bonded =0Aconstruction=0AWhat=99s the real story -- what would you
do if someone knocked a hole in the =0Awing?=0ARegards,=0ATony D=0A =0A _
-========================
================ =0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: grumman wing |
Typically when the FAA doesn't understand the situation or construction,
they will opt to the side of safety, ( a plane not in the air is safer
than one in the air) The Grumman wings are non-structural. I think the
owner should expected an educated response from the FAA of what they
base their answers on, and in writing. They have clear cut regulations
and orders that they must follow. Since we are paying them, I dont think
it is too much to ask.
I don't see why the FAA has to be involved other that to issue the Ferry
Permit. Just tell them the plane needs to be moved to a location where
and inspection and maintenance can be done. It's the A&P that has to
sign the log book stating that the plane is safe for the intended
flight. One leaking fuel tank is no big deal. Just fly on the other
one. Heck, there are lots of planes flying around with only one fuel
tank.
Cliff
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: grumman wing |
What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole
in the wing?
Depends on where it is and how extensive the damage was. For a small
area I would cut out the damage, flush rivet a doubler and make a flush
patch that could be flush riveted to the doubler. Same as you would do
for any other aluminum skin plane. Or an entire section could be
reskinned as Fletchair does on a regular basis.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Dymond
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:24 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing
Hi Gang,
First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the
wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85
I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just
down the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in
the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and
wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the
shop.
So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big
deal -- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin
the wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they
tell me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over
the country and buy a wing. Then someone else tells me most shops
won=92t work on this because of the bonded construction
What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole
in the wing?
Regards,
Tony D
Message 5
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| Subject: | repairing grumman wings |
Hi Tony,
Repairing a Grumman wing is not hard. As long as you understand the
process, repairing bonded wings is really only half voodoo. Depending
on where the wing is damaged standard sheet metal repair techniques can
be used. Reskinning a bonded wing is very time consuming and
meticulous, yes, but there are several shops that can do it. As for
wing skins, we (True Flight) now have our skin former set up and can
make them in the repair station. We recently repaired a set of wings
that escaped the customer's trailer as he drove down the interstate on
his way to our shop for tank resealing. Not a pretty sight but we were
all amazed at how little damage was actually done. Once we replaced a
couple of ribs and the skins the wings were good to go again. Not
unlike a good paint job, the majority of the work is in the preparation
and set up prior to the actual bonding.
FYI, here is an outboard wing panel that has just had the skin removed.
Reskinning involves removing the old skin and repairing/replacing any
damaged ribs, rib brackets or rear spar joints then bonding and riveting
the new skin to the ribs. Before long we will have our bond room set up
and we will be able to reskin wings using the production tooling and
avoid the use of rivets in the process.
Don't forget that the slick bonded wing is one of the reasons the Tiger
is so much more fun, fast and efficient than the Cherokee ;-)
Kevin
J. Kevin Lancaster, President
True Flight Aerospace, LLC
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----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Dymond
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:24 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing
Hi Gang,
First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have
the wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85
I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just
down the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in
the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and
wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the
shop.
So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big
deal -- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin
the wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they
tell me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over
the country and buy a wing. Then someone else tells me most shops
won=92t work on this because of the bonded construction
What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a
hole in the wing?
Regards,
Tony D
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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