---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/03/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:42 AM - Re: grumman wing (Garner Rice) 2. 10:49 AM - Re: grumman wing (Gary Vogt) 3. 11:57 AM - Re: grumman wing (flyv35b) 4. 04:04 PM - Re: grumman wing (flyv35b) 5. 09:11 PM - repairing grumman wings (Kevin Lancaster) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:42 AM PST US From: Garner Rice Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing Several years ago=2C a tiger out of Tulsa rand off the runway and smashed t he inboard panel. The tanks would not hole fuel. Pour it in and it would po ur right out. We sent a pilot (who now works for the FAA) up there and got a ferry permit and flew it back. Fixed the plane and returned it back. A year or so ago there was a traveler that had a tanks leak and the FAA did n't want to issue a ferry permit on the basis it wan't safe to fly. I had t hat fed talk to the the fed that did the ferry flight with the smashed wing . Got the ferry permit and flew it here for the repair. Typically when the FAA doesn't understand the situation or construction=2C they will opt to the side of safety=2C ( a plane not in the air is safer th an one in the air) The Grumman wings are non-structural. I think the owner should expected an educated response from the FAA of what they base their a nswers on=2C and in writing. They have clear cut regulations and orders tha t they must follow. Since we are paying them=2C I dont think it is too much to ask. I just drove to 1700 miles to pick up a grumman. One wing had a hole and th e other had a dent. If it wasn't for the bent propeller=2C I would have not hesitated to get a ferry permit and fly it instead of hauling it. The old cliche " education is expensive=2C but ignorance is costly". The sh op that gave the original estimate was about 20k more than our estimate=2C not because they are a bad shop=2C they are a good shop=2C but because the y lacked "grumman experience". That estimate could have totaled the aircraf t=2C leaving the owner with a check and planeless. Threre are a lot of shop s that are afraid of the bonded construction and I think it is just because of lack of experience and not because of any complexity of construction. The key to grumman success=2C spend the time and money up front so you dont spend time and money. Dont defer maintenance=2C and oh yes=2C learn to fly a grumman. Garner FletchAir From: pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing On 9/3/2010 12:24 AM=2C Anthony Dymond wrote: Hi Gang=2C First off=2C I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the wi fe talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85 I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord=2C CA=2C just down the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in the le ading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=92t a llow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop. So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big deal - - it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy a wing.Really only one place to go ..... Fletchair. Supports our whol e fleet ..... and yes=2C us too. Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of the bonded constructionOnly inferior shops have a problem. Fletchair will res kin it. What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in t he wing?Hmmmm. An eye for an eye ......... Linn Truthfully=2C you'll get better answers from those more qualified. Linn You'll Regards=2C Tony D om/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumm an-List s.com">http://forums.matronics.com om/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:18 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing I've seen entire Tigers/Cheetahs riveted back together. It isn't pretty, b ut =0Aanything is possible. =0A=0ATo repair a hole, there is a section in the maintenance manual that details how =0Ato build a doubler and patch. I t really isn't that big of a deal. =0A=0AFletcher has reskinned entire win gs.=0A=0ACome on up to Auburn and I'll show you a partially disassembled wi ng.=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Anthony D ymond =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu , September 2, 2010 9:24:24 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing=0A =0A=0AHi Gang,=0AFirst off, I don=99t have a Grumman but I wish I did . Almost have the wife talked =0Ainto this you know how that goe s=0AI do have a question. I=99m in a flying club at Concord , CA, just down the road =0Afrom Gary. One of the guys just put a signific ant hole in the leading edge of =0Athe wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=99t allow a ferry permit =0Aso the wing went off on a truck to the shop.=0ASo I=99m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=99s no big deal -- it=99s =0Aeasy to get a replaceme nt skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing. Then I ask =0Aabout the same s ituation in a Tiger =93 and they tell me it is a big deal and I =0Awo uld have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy a wing. Then =0Asomeone else tells me most shops won=99t work on this because of t he bonded =0Aconstruction=0AWhat=99s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in the =0Awing?=0ARegards,=0ATony D=0A =0A _ -======================== ================ =0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:46 AM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing Typically when the FAA doesn't understand the situation or construction, they will opt to the side of safety, ( a plane not in the air is safer than one in the air) The Grumman wings are non-structural. I think the owner should expected an educated response from the FAA of what they base their answers on, and in writing. They have clear cut regulations and orders that they must follow. Since we are paying them, I dont think it is too much to ask. I don't see why the FAA has to be involved other that to issue the Ferry Permit. Just tell them the plane needs to be moved to a location where and inspection and maintenance can be done. It's the A&P that has to sign the log book stating that the plane is safe for the intended flight. One leaking fuel tank is no big deal. Just fly on the other one. Heck, there are lots of planes flying around with only one fuel tank. Cliff ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:49 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in the wing? Depends on where it is and how extensive the damage was. For a small area I would cut out the damage, flush rivet a doubler and make a flush patch that could be flush riveted to the doubler. Same as you would do for any other aluminum skin plane. Or an entire section could be reskinned as Fletchair does on a regular basis. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Dymond To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing Hi Gang, First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85 I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just down the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop. So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big deal -- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy a wing. Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of the bonded construction What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in the wing? Regards, Tony D ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:36 PM PST US From: "Kevin Lancaster" Subject: TeamGrumman-List: repairing grumman wings Hi Tony, Repairing a Grumman wing is not hard. As long as you understand the process, repairing bonded wings is really only half voodoo. Depending on where the wing is damaged standard sheet metal repair techniques can be used. Reskinning a bonded wing is very time consuming and meticulous, yes, but there are several shops that can do it. As for wing skins, we (True Flight) now have our skin former set up and can make them in the repair station. We recently repaired a set of wings that escaped the customer's trailer as he drove down the interstate on his way to our shop for tank resealing. Not a pretty sight but we were all amazed at how little damage was actually done. Once we replaced a couple of ribs and the skins the wings were good to go again. Not unlike a good paint job, the majority of the work is in the preparation and set up prior to the actual bonding. FYI, here is an outboard wing panel that has just had the skin removed. Reskinning involves removing the old skin and repairing/replacing any damaged ribs, rib brackets or rear spar joints then bonding and riveting the new skin to the ribs. Before long we will have our bond room set up and we will be able to reskin wings using the production tooling and avoid the use of rivets in the process. Don't forget that the slick bonded wing is one of the reasons the Tiger is so much more fun, fast and efficient than the Cherokee ;-) Kevin J. Kevin Lancaster, President True Flight Aerospace, LLC Confidential: This e-mail message, including all attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain legally privileged and confidential information. If you are not an intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have either received this message in error or through interception, and that any review, use, distribution, copying or disclosure of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and is subject to criminal and civil penalties. All personal messages express solely the sender's views and not those of True Flight Aerospace, LLC. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Dymond To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: grumman wing Hi Gang, First off, I don=92t have a Grumman but I wish I did. Almost have the wife talked into this =85 you know how that goes=85 I do have a question. I=92m in a flying club at Concord, CA, just down the road from Gary. One of the guys just put a significant hole in the leading edge of the wing of our Archer. The FAA threw a fit and wouldn=92t allow a ferry permit so the wing went off on a truck to the shop. So I=92m talking to some of the folks and they tell me It=92s no big deal -- it=92s easy to get a replacement skin for a Cherokee and reskin the wing. Then I ask about the same situation in a Tiger ' and they tell me it is a big deal and I would have to look at junkyards all over the country and buy a wing. Then someone else tells me most shops won=92t work on this because of the bonded construction What=92s the real story -- what would you do if someone knocked a hole in the wing? Regards, Tony D href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.