Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 PM - Re: Prop (Gary Vogt)
2. 12:15 PM - fabricating your own parts (Dj Merrill)
3. 12:46 PM - Re: fabricating your own parts (Gary Vogt)
4. 01:01 PM - placards (Gary Vogt)
5. 01:13 PM - Re: fabricating your own parts (Dj Merrill)
6. 01:40 PM - Re: Prop (Bob Hodo)
7. 01:52 PM - Re: fabricating your own parts (Dj Merrill)
8. 02:04 PM - Reno pictures (Bruce Smith)
9. 02:07 PM - Re: fabricating your own parts (Dj Merrill)
10. 02:08 PM - Re: fabricating your own parts (Andy)
11. 03:14 PM - Re: Prop (FLYaDIVE)
12. 04:42 PM - Re: placards (Garner Rice)
13. 04:53 PM - a little cross country (David Feinstein)
14. 05:57 PM - Re: a little cross country (James Courtney)
15. 08:53 PM - Re: fabricating your own parts (Gary Vogt)
16. 09:06 PM - Re: placards (Gary Vogt)
17. 09:26 PM - Re: Reno pictures (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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You can't accelerate a propeller blade fast enough to cause cavitation at the
root or any where else. The magic pixie dust does a pretty good job of letting
the prop turn full rpm (as if it had a climb prop) on take-off.
________________________________
From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 9:03:13 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Prop
Gary, any chance that doing this at the root of the blade during take-off
acceleration would reduce the work load on the prop inboard, allowing the engine
to get the working outer half to higher rpms? Kind of like controlling
cavitation on a boat? And if this IS what happens, the magic pixie dust could
be tweaked even stronger strait and level, no?
Bob Hodo
--- On Mon, 9/20/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM>
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Prop
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 10:23 PM
>
>
>I don't recall hearing about this. I'm not sure how it would work. Boundary
>layer control is generally used to control flow attachment.
>
>
>Do a google search and see if you can find anything.
>
>
>30 years ago I was reading a Jane's book of planes. At the time, I was
>designing a plane using a ducted fan. Damn if the Germans hadn't already done
>that. Forward swept wings were the new thing. Damn if the Germans hadn't done
>that too. If you have access to a complete set of Jane's going back to the
>20's, odds are, it's been done.
>
>
________________________________
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 5:17:38 PM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Prop
>
>
>Gary,
>
>Some years ago, and this may have been in the 1980s, I read an article in
>Machine Design about a guy who patented a fixed pitch, constant speed propeller.
>He was able to cause a "constant speed effect" by blowing air out slots machined
>into the upper surface of the prop blades. This did require a hollow shaft on
>his test motor and an air pump to pressurize the slots. Never heard anything
>about that since. Remember anything from your Propulsion Engineer days?
>
>It would seem to me that you might be able to dispense with the air pump and
>open the front of the spinner to take advantage of the ram air effect. Might not
>be perfect, but it might be a start.
>
>Anyone else out there in Team Grumman land remember anything about
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigatoet="_blank"
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.->
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | fabricating your own parts |
Hi all,
I've seen various posts in the past concerning owner fabricated parts
that can be legally used on our Grummans. I'm curious where the line is
between what we could fabricate, and what has to be factory made or
TSO'ed, etc. As a specific example, could we fabricate our own
wheelpants? In my case I'm talking about an AA1B, but this would
probably equally apply to most of our planes.
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: fabricating your own parts |
Get a copy of 14 CFR Part 121 and read up on what can be done under an owner
produced part. Garner knows a lot about this subject. Ask him.
The fact is, any part can be made. The problem comes from trying to determine
what needs a field approval or not. Getting a field approval isn't trivial.
You do almost as much work as you would to get an STC.
This is an area where you will need to do your homework.
________________________________
From: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 12:12:43 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: fabricating your own parts
Hi all,
I've seen various posts in the past concerning owner fabricated parts
that can be legally used on our Grummans. I'm curious where the line is
between what we could fabricate, and what has to be factory made or
TSO'ed, etc. As a specific example, could we fabricate our own
wheelpants? In my case I'm talking about an AA1B, but this would
probably equally apply to most of our planes.
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 4
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Garner, would you happen to have the cover that goes on an AG5B for the
throttle/carb heat/mixture? The one on the Project Tiger is pretty much all
worn off. I thought about just painting it black and adding labels but that
looks tacky. Do you have one? I'll trade.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: fabricating your own parts |
On 09/21/2010 03:35 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Get a copy of 14 CFR Part 121 and read up on what can be done under an
> owner produced part. Garner knows a lot about this subject. Ask him.
Thanks, Gary. I tried electronically searching through Part 121, and
the word "owner" does not appear anywhere, "produced" only once in a
different context, and "part" appears as "subpart" or "Part #" as in a
section of the regs.
I read through "Subpart LMaintenance, Preventive Maintenance, and
Alterations" thinking that might be the most likely place to find
something, but I'm not seeing any reference to an owner produced part or
similar wording.
Do you have any more specific references where this might be found?
Part 121 is pretty huge! :-)
Thanks!
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
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Message 6
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Perhaps I am confused.- That wouldn't make news.
But my understanding from your post was that the holes in the prop with air
being forced through them would detach the airflow on that side of the bla
de (in the areas near the holes).
In trying to figure out how this would be an advantage I wondered if this m
ight be similar to cavitation on a boat prop.- On a boat this results in
immediate rpm acceleration, unfortunately killing thrust (almost) all acros
s the blades, since water is being replaced by air.- It does make a boat
prop a little more constant speed (red line rpms on less than full hp), but
is uncontrolled, etc.
On this mythical "fixed pitch constant speed prop", attached airflow would
be replaced in the areas where the holes are with a detached flow that woul
d kind of follow the blade, and I am assuming this would eat up less horsep
ower, allowing the rpms to come up?
I am just trying to find logic in it, and this is the best my mind has come
up with so far.
Bob Hodo
=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: fabricating your own parts |
I found one reference, Part 21, Subpart K "Approval of Materials, Parts,
Processes, and Appliances":
21.301 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes procedural requirements for the approval of
certain materials, parts, processes, and appliances.
21.303 Replacement and modification parts.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
produce a modification or replacement part for sale for installation on
a type certificated product unless it is produced pursuant to a Parts
Manufacturer Approval issued under this subpart.
(b) This section does not apply to the following:
(1) Parts produced under a type or production certificate.
(2) Parts produced by an owner or operator for maintaining or altering
his own product.
So if you aren't selling the parts you fabricate, this section doesn't
appear to apply.
I'll keep poking some more...
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
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Gary,
What was it about the intake in the third Reno picture that you liked so
much?
Bruce
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: fabricating your own parts |
Here is an interesting article on the subject:
<http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1257>
http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1257
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: fabricating your own parts |
Hi Dj,
I am an A&P and I have read the information you are looking for but I am too
lazy to try to find it. What I think it says is this....If a part is not
available throught any normal sources, an owner may fabricate that part
using the same materials and design....also, as I recall, you could design
the part (as above), have it fabricated and have a properly licensed person
install it....this was put in to deal with old airplanes that are no longer
in production but applies across the board.
If you really can't find it, I will look later....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dj Merrill" <deej@deej.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: fabricating your own parts
>
> On 09/21/2010 03:35 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> Get a copy of 14 CFR Part 121 and read up on what can be done under an
>> owner produced part. Garner knows a lot about this subject. Ask him.
>
>
> Thanks, Gary. I tried electronically searching through Part 121, and
> the word "owner" does not appear anywhere, "produced" only once in a
> different context, and "part" appears as "subpart" or "Part #" as in a
> section of the regs.
>
> I read through "Subpart LMaintenance, Preventive Maintenance, and
> Alterations" thinking that might be the most likely place to find
> something, but I'm not seeing any reference to an owner produced part or
> similar wording.
>
> Do you have any more specific references where this might be found?
> Part 121 is pretty huge! :-)
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Dj
>
> --
> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
> Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
>
> Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
> Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
>
>
>
Message 11
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Hello Gary:
Cavitation is an occurrence in a LIQUID not in air. It is the separation o
f
a liquid over a solid moving surface. When the liquid separates it leave
behind AIR.
Hello Bob H.
Doing almost anything to the root of a prop is just about useless. Props d
o
their work in the last 1/3 of the blade. Experiments have been do in
replacing the root area with nothing more than a piece of flat stock. Ther
e
was a GAIN in RPM due to weight reduction and drag reduction. They were
able to increase the pitch in the last 1/3 which increased the IAS.
Take a look at the F4F Wildcat - Just to keep things Grumman. Huge Cowl
with lots of the prop being blocked off.
In the U-Control plane world they did speed records with ONE BLADE a
counter balance weight and only the last 1/3.
Now, to contradict my above statements take a look at
the WHIRLWIND composition prop.
The tip is quite pointed - The blade is quite wide and LQQKing at it from
the end there is almost only ONE pitch. Not progressive/variable like our
props.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You can't accelerate a propeller blade fast enough to cause cavitation at
> the root or any where else. The magic pixie dust does a pretty good job
of
> letting the prop turn full rpm (as if it had a climb prop) on take-off.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Bob Hodo <bob.hodo@YAHOO.COM>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, September 20, 2010 9:03:13 PM
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Prop
>
> Gary, any chance that doing this at the root of the blade during take-off
> acceleration would reduce the work load on the prop inboard, allowing the
> engine to get the working outer half to higher rpms? Kind of like
> controlling cavitation on a boat? And if this IS what happens, the magic
> pixie dust could be tweaked even stronger strait and level, no?
>
> Bob Hodo
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 9/20/10, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Prop
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 10:23 PM
>
> I don't recall hearing about this. I'm not sure how it would work.
> Boundary layer control is generally used to control flow attachment.
>
> Do a google search and see if you can find anything.
>
> 30 years ago I was reading a Jane's book of planes. At the time, I was
> designing a plane using a ducted fan. Damn if the Germans hadn't already
> done that. Forward swept wings were the new thing. Damn if the Germans
> hadn't done that too. If you have access to a complete set of Jane's goi
ng
> back to the 20's, odds are, it's been done.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, September 20, 2010 5:17:38 PM
> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Prop
>
>
> Gary,
>
> Some years ago, and this may have been in the 1980s, I read an article in
> Machine Design about a guy who patented a fixed pitch, constant speed
> propeller. He was able to cause a "constant speed effect" by blowing air
out
> slots machined into the upper surface of the prop blades. This did requir
e a
> hollow shaft on his test motor and an air pump to pressurize the slots.
> Never heard anything about that since. Remember anything from your
> Propulsion Engineer days?
>
> It would seem to me that you might be able to dispense with the air pump
> and open the front of the spinner to take advantage of the ram air effect
.
> Might not be perfect, but it might be a start.
>
> Anyone else out there in Team Grumman land remember anything about
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigatoet="_blank <http://www.matronics.com/
Navigatoet=%22_blank>" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics <http://forums.matronics.com%22%3Ehttp://forums.matronics>.-> <
http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+color
=> <http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+c
olor=>*
>
> * <http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+co
lor=>*
> * <http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+co
lor=>*
> * <http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+co
lor=>*
> * <http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+co
lor=>*
>
> * <http://www.matronics.co======%3C/font%3E%3C/b%3E%3Cfont+co
lor=>*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 12
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How many do you want. I think I am down to my last few=2C give or take a hu
ndred .......If you can guess the part number..I'll make you a sweet deal a
nd even throw in the installation instructions with it. This new improved d
ecal will improve economy and speed. :)
Garner
From: teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: placards
Garner=2C would you happen to have the cover that goes on an AG5B for the t
hrottle/carb heat/mixture? The one on the Project Tiger is pretty much all
worn off. I thought about just painting it black and adding labels but th
at looks tacky. Do you have one? I'll trade.
Message 13
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| Subject: | a little cross country |
After last year's trip took us to western Alberta, Barbara and I decided to
keep it a little closer to home this year. This is the story of our visit to
the Northwest Territory (1787 style, not the one in Canada).
http://newlangsyne.com/mgy/
Apologies to the Mooney guys, we used an off-brand plane.
Message 14
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| Subject: | a little cross country |
Nice trip again this year David. Your documentation of the Niagara
Escarpment took me back as did the rest of your trip. Before becoming a
Californian I was born in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada and lived from 8 until
college in MI. Throughout my life my grandparents lived on the North shore
of Lake Winnebago just down from High-Cliff state park so we basically had
both ends of the thing covered. My parents used to leave us with the
grandparents while they'd take a couple of days for themselves in Door
County. I've been to the grass-roofed restaurant a few times but not in
many years. Growing up we'd take the S.S. Badger (and pre-1990 occasionally
something else) from Ludington to Manitowoc when travelling so WI. My
parents have a place in Manistee now just North of Ludington. We once took
a family vacation to Manitoulin Island and we've spent some time with
friends on Washington Island on the Wisconsin end. It's all wonderful and
I'm a little bitter it's such a long way away now as now that I'm a pilot
and aircraft owner so much is so easily in reach in that area if you aren't
starting from California:) Ah well, I won't complain too much as our
weather is good and there's lots to see out here too. We'll be heading to
Jackson, WY for Columbus Day weekend in early October and that's pretty cool
too. Your photos and comments sure stirred up a lot of good memories though
and I'm so glad you got to share it with your family and then with us.
Best,
Jamey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Feinstein
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 4:50 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: a little cross country
<david@newlangsyne.com>
After last year's trip took us to western Alberta, Barbara and I decided to
keep it a little closer to home this year. This is the story of our visit
to
the Northwest Territory (1787 style, not the one in Canada).
http://newlangsyne.com/mgy/
Apologies to the Mooney guys, we used an off-brand plane.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
23:34:00
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: fabricating your own parts |
my bad. it is 21. typo.
________________________________
From: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 1:50:05 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: fabricating your own parts
I found one reference, Part 21, Subpart K "Approval of Materials, Parts,
Processes, and Appliances":
21.301 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes procedural requirements for the approval of
certain materials, parts, processes, and appliances.
21.303 Replacement and modification parts.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
produce a modification or replacement part for sale for installation on
a type certificated product unless it is produced pursuant to a Parts
Manufacturer Approval issued under this subpart.
(b) This section does not apply to the following:
(1) Parts produced under a type or production certificate.
(2) Parts produced by an owner or operator for maintaining or altering
his own product.
So if you aren't selling the parts you fabricate, this section doesn't
appear to apply.
I'll keep poking some more...
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 16
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|
I'll see if I can find my parts book for the AG5B. It's upstairs somewhere.
The AG that I'm working on has what looks like a silk screened label. it isn't
a decal.
Also, about those aluminum kick panels. Did you find some that look like I would
find them acceptable?????
By any chance, do you have the plastic kick panels for an AG that go under the
panel? I have two sets of those for an AA but they are shaped wrong for this.
G
________________________________
From: Garner Rice <garnerrice@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 4:40:00 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: placards
How many do you want. I think I am down to my last few, give or take a
hundred .......If you can guess the part number..I'll make you a sweet deal and
even throw in the installation instructions with it. This new improved decal
will improve economy and speed. :)
Garner
________________________________
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:57:26 -0700
From: teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: placards
Garner, would you happen to have the cover that goes on an AG5B for the
throttle/carb heat/mixture? The one on the Project Tiger is pretty much all
worn off. I thought about just painting it black and adding labels but that
looks tacky. Do you have one? I'll trade.
List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Reno pictures |
Did I answer this?
________________________________
From: Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com>
Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 2:01:18 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Reno pictures
Gary,
What was it about the intake in the third Reno picture that you liked so much?
Bruce
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