Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: Power Flow Exhaust fairings (Gary Vogt)
2. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: deal on the Jaguar cowling (Gary Vogt)
3. 09:54 AM - Prop twist (SANDY)
4. 10:30 AM - Re: Power Flow Exhaust fairings (discover)
5. 10:31 AM - Re: Prop twist (Gary Vogt)
6. 10:34 AM - here's the situation. what would you do? (Gary Vogt)
7. 11:25 AM - Re: here's the situation. what would you do? (allenc3@bellsouth.net)
8. 12:15 PM - Re: here's the situation. what would you do? (RESTR 1)
9. 06:15 PM - Re: here's the situation. what would you do? (flyv35b)
10. 06:27 PM - Trim (brian sandberg)
11. 07:07 PM - Re: here's the situation. what would you do? (Linn Walters)
12. 07:25 PM - Re: here's the situation. what would you do? (Dean White)
13. 07:32 PM - Re: here's the situation. what would you do? (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Power Flow Exhaust fairings |
Both the convex long and short work well. The trick is getting the right angle
to the air flow.
________________________________
From: discover <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 9:54:57 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Power Flow Exhaust fairings
Gary,
Which one of these would be best for my Tiger?
Or do you have a new one that works even better your working on?
Thanks,
ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315520#315520
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| Subject: | Re: RE: deal on the Jaguar cowling |
Yes. see pics. Here is half a cowling fitted to a Cheetah.
________________________________
From: Brock Windsor <n2_narcosis@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:38:17 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: deal on the Jaguar cowling
Gary,
So you use the same hinge the factory upper cowling uses with camlocks to
hold the halves down instead of the crappy latches and the nosebowl and lower is
one piece that is split vertically for easy access to alternator?
Brock
--- On Tue, 10/12/10, Scott Trejo <md11strejo@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>From: Scott Trejo <md11strejo@YAHOO.COM>
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: RE: deal on the Jaguar cowling
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 3:43 PM
>
>
>Gary, Did you ever make the upper cowling 1 piece, no center hinge for doors?
> If its a option I would like no doors except an oil dip stick door.
>
>
>Scott Trejo
>
>
>On Oct 12, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>Hi Mark,
>>
>>
>>All very good questions.
>>
>>
>>As delivered, the cowling should (optimum world) fit with just trimming to the
>>'end-of-part' lines. I'll try a couple just to make sure.
>>
>>
>>In the original installation instructions, the baffles needed to be mostly
>>fabricated from an RV6 baffle set. That no longer applies. I've spent waaaaay
>>tooooo much time and money fine tuning the baffles. They will fit with minor
>>trim and rivets.
>>
>>
>>You'll need a centerline hinge from Fletcher. Get one that has had the plastic
>>removed before it was riveted together. Get one that ISN'T painted. For some
>>reason, on the last several I've received, the plastic has been left on one side
>>and then the whole piece is painted with rattle can primer. It looks very
>>hacked. With a clean, no paint hinge, you can mask it after install, prime and
>>paint the upper cowling, and leave the hinge silver. Looks good. Plus, the
>>paint won't crack and look like shit the first time you open the cowling.
>>
>>
>>The landing light housing I use takes the stock landing light hardware. If it
>>takes longer than 5 minutes to install (after you install the nut plates),
>>you're doing something wrong.
>>
>>
>>The cowling is held down by #4 or #5 cam locks. Depends on how much paint is
on
>>there. Mine uses #5, the last one, Ned's used #4. You'll need 10 cam-lock
>>studs, retainer rings, and receptacles.
>>
>>
>>That's about it.
>>
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Mark T. Mueller <mark.t.mueller@comcast.net>
>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 7:26:04 AM
>>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: RE: deal on the Jaguar cowling
>>
>>--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Mark T. Mueller"
>><mark.t.mueller@comcast.net>
>>
>>Time: 10:03:11 AM PST US
>>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: deal on the Jaguar cowling
>>
>>I heard that AJ posted to the GG about the deal on the Jaguar cowling. So
far,
>>
>>I've heard nothing.
>>
>>Can't seem to give 'em away.
>>___________________________________________________________
>>
>>Gary,
>>
>>I am interested, but would like what the "fly-away" cost really looks like.
>>
>>I understand you buy the cowling...
>>
>>Then I would have to upgrade my PF exhaust from the Donkey D style to
>>the internal...
>>
>>Then you have to install, then remove for paint...
>>
>>Any other hardware, accessory or other necessary costs associated with
>>installation?
>>
>>Latches, hinges? Will my nose bowl landing light
>>
>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>n
>>
>>
>
> st" rel=nofollow
>target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listet=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
> llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
Message 3
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Hey Gary
-
-- Does the twist work on a Cheetah?
-
-- An HC-engine w Sensenich 61 pitch.
-
-- If so what would the dimensions be?
-
-- Thx
-
-- -Sandy
-
-
--
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| Subject: | Re: Power Flow Exhaust fairings |
More questions:
I can't tell from the pictures; when you say convex; does that describe a curving
out in reference to the attach point to the fuselage (flat belly) and from
firewall aft (front to back)? Or from wing to wing (side to side) of the fairing?
or both?
If the short one stops the cross flow and the airflow has otherwise straightened
out by the end of the short length then it would also have less drag then the
long one.....right? Or could there be more turbulence above the end of the short
one compared to the long one? (asking way too much right;) )
I'll take which ever one you think would work best in my Tiger. In trade for your
cheap labor and the part you would take breakfast at Katrina's and dinner
at the Ore Cart for you and Clyti right;)?
ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315596#315596
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I've only had one Cheetah Sensenich prop twisted. I've only had one owner who
wanted to try. We did a 63-62-61 on that one. He got 200 fpm ROC increase and
2 knots top speed increase. He never flew over 2650 rpm.
________________________________
From: SANDY <siamsa28@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 9:52:14 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Prop twist
Hey Gary
Does the twist work on a Cheetah?
An HC engine w Sensenich 61 pitch.
If so what would the dimensions be?
Thx
-Sandy
Message 6
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| Subject: | here's the situation. what would you do? |
In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in Sacramento. The
owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying miles from Mather. At the time
of the annual, I recorded a few minor cracks in the horizontal supports. The CE
was new at that time. I told him, we'd look at it the next year.
In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it since the last
annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had flown about
35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to Mather; he could have
come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me. At any rate, I got to Mather
about sunset (in May). The plane had a dead battery and a flat tire. After
putting air in the tire and jumping the battery, I started the engine. The
landing light was burned out. None of the panel lights worked. I managed to
taxi to the runway and fly the plane to Auburn.
During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged. Both attach
holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the braces were badly bent.
The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear the entire plane apart and do a
ground up restoration. He'd do most of the work. Fine. So, he came up every
weekend for several months and took stuff apart. He removed the wings and
stripped off the paint. We found some damage, but, nothing terrible. The
entire plane was disassembled. No windows, no seats, no wiring, no instrument
panel, . . . . nothing but a bare fuselage. I got his prop overhauled. I got
his canopy headliner recovered. We were making progress. He ordered a Power
Flow Exhaust system; paid cash. He ordered the later style seats; paid cash.
He put a deposit on a new cowling. He said I could take some of the avionics
to the AYA in Fredericksburg, TX 2006, and sell them to recover some money. I
did.
Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their first kid.
That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the $50,000 he had saved
for the restoration was given to his wife's sister and her husband so they could
buy the house down the street. The last time I saw him was Christmas of 2006.
I called in January of 2007 and left a message asking what the next step was
going to be. I never did get a call back. As I recall, my next step was to
complete the redesign of the horizontal braces and get an approved bonding
process, then install the braces.
In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and started paying
rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than leaving it outside. I had no
room in my hangar.
Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I removed the
damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new braces, and began
designing new braces. I finished the redesign of the braces in early 2008. I
paid an engineer $4000 for the stress analysis, redesigned braces made into CAD
drawings, all of the research for the bonding process and FAA approval. Then,
I
paid a DER another $1500 to review the entire package and submit it to the FAA
for field approval. The braces were never installed.
I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email address I had
for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him went unanswered.
Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of weeks ago,
I
tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number. The work number was
changed. The home phone answering message was one of those digital non-descript
messages so I didn't know if that was the right number. His cell had his name;
I left a couple of messages. When he finally called back, after 2-weeks of
calling, I told him his bill was $20,000+ and wanted to know what he wanted to
do with the plane. He said he didn't think $20,000 was fair, that he'd come up
on Saturday and we'd talk about it. Saturday came and went without a phone
call; he never showed. I called his cell about 5pm to see what his plan was.
No answer.
So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his wife gets
all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things, the owner is calm
but realizes it may be too late to continue the restoration without some serious
cash.
Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff he
ordered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for the braces.
With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior,
horizontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else. Without labor,
there is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the plane airworthy.
What would you do?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: here's the situation. what would you do? |
In Florida, they have a thing called a mechanics lien just for that type of t
hing. If he still owes 2g on the plane, start charging 200 a month storage. I
f he sells it you will get your 2g plus what storage fees accrue.
Claude
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 13, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in Sacramento. T
he owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying miles from Mather. At t
he time of the annual, I recorded a few minor cracks in the horizontal suppo
rts. The CE was new at that time. I told him, we'd look at it the next yea
r.
>
> In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it since th
e last annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
>
> In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had flown
about 35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to Mather; he co
uld have come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me. At any rate, I go
t to Mather about sunset (in May). The plane had a dead battery and a flat t
ire. After putting air in the tire and jumping the battery, I started the e
ngine. The landing light was burned out. None of the panel lights worked.
I managed to taxi to the runway and fly the plane to Auburn.
>
> During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged. Both a
ttach holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the braces were badl
y bent. The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear the entire plane apart
and do a ground up restoration. He'd do most of the work. Fine. So, he c
ame up every weekend for several months and took stuff apart. He removed th
e wings and stripped off the paint. We found some damage, but, nothing terr
ible. The entire plane was disassembled. No windows, no seats, no wiring, n
o instrument panel, . . . . nothing but a bare fuselage. I got his prop ov
erhauled. I got his canopy headliner recovered. We were making progress. H
e ordered a Power Flow Exhaust system; paid cash. He ordered the later styl
e seats; paid cash. He put a deposit on a new cowling. He said I could tak
e some of the avionics to the AYA in Fredericksburg, TX 2006, and sell them t
o recover some money. I did.
>
> Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their first k
id. That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the $50,000 he had
saved for the restoration was given to his wife's sister and her husband so
they could buy the house down the street. The last time I saw him was Chri
stmas of 2006. I called in January of 2007 and left a message asking what t
he next step was going to be. I never did get a call back. As I recall, my
next step was to complete the redesign of the horizontal braces and get an a
pproved bonding process, then install the braces.
>
> In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and started pa
ying rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than leaving it outside. I
had no room in my hangar.
>
> Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I remove
d the damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new braces, and bega
n designing new braces. I finished the redesign of the braces in early 2008
. I paid an engineer $4000 for the stress analysis, redesigned braces made i
nto CAD drawings, all of the research for the bonding process and FAA approv
al. Then, I paid a DER another $1500 to review the entire package and submi
t it to the FAA for field approval. The braces were never installed.
>
> I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
>
> Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email address
I had for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him went unanswere
d.
>
> Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of weeks a
go, I tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number. The work numbe
r was changed. The home phone answering message was one of those digital no
n-descript messages so I didn't know if that was the right number. His cell
had his name; I left a couple of messages. When he finally called back, af
ter 2-weeks of calling, I told him his bill was $20,000+ and wanted to know w
hat he wanted to do with the plane. He said he didn't think $20,000 was fai
r, that he'd come up on Saturday and we'd talk about it. Saturday came and w
ent without a phone call; he never showed. I called his cell about 5pm to s
ee what his plan was. No answer.
>
> So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his wife
gets all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things, the owner i
s calm but realizes it may be too late to continue the restoration without s
ome serious cash.
>
> Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff he o
rdered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for the braces.
With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
>
> At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior, hor
izontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else. Without labor, t
here is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the plane airworthy.
>
> What would you do?
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: here's the situation. what would you do? |
File lien with FAA
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/record_aircraft_lien/
On 10/13/2010 10:25 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in
> Sacramento. The owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying
> miles from Mather. At the time of the annual, I recorded a few minor
> cracks in the horizontal supports. The CE was new at that time. I
> told him, we'd look at it the next year.
>
> In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it
> since the last annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
>
> In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had
> flown about 35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to
> Mather; he could have come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me.
> At any rate, I got to Mather about sunset (in May). The plane had a
> dead battery and a flat tire. After putting air in the tire and
> jumping the battery, I started the engine. The landing light was
> burned out. None of the panel lights worked. I managed to taxi to
> the runway and fly the plane to Auburn.
>
> During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged.
> Both attach holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the
> braces were badly bent. The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear
> the entire plane apart and do a ground up restoration. He'd do most
> of the work. Fine. So, he came up every weekend for several months
> and took stuff apart. He removed the wings and stripped off the
> paint. We found some damage, but, nothing terrible. The entire plane
> was disassembled. No windows, no seats, no wiring, no instrument
> panel, . . . . nothing but a bare fuselage. I got his prop
> overhauled. I got his canopy headliner recovered. We were making
> progress. He ordered a Power Flow Exhaust system; paid cash. He
> ordered the later style seats; paid cash. He put a deposit on a new
> cowling. He said I could take some of the avionics to the AYA in
> Fredericksburg, TX 2006, and sell them to recover some money. I did.
>
> Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their
> first kid. That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the
> $50,000 he had saved for the restoration was given to his wife's
> sister and her husband so they could buy the house down the street.
> The last time I saw him was Christmas of 2006. I called in January
> of 2007 and left a message asking what the next step was going to be.
> I never did get a call back. As I recall, my next step was to
> complete the redesign of the horizontal braces and get an approved
> bonding process, then install the braces.
>
> In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and
> started paying rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than
> leaving it outside. I had no room in my hangar.
>
> Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I
> removed the damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new
> braces, and began designing new braces. I finished the redesign of
> the braces in early 2008. I paid an engineer $4000 for the stress
> analysis, redesigned braces made into CAD drawings, all of the
> research for the bonding process and FAA approval. Then, I paid a DER
> another $1500 to review the entire package and submit it to the FAA
> for field approval. The braces were never installed.
>
> I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
>
> Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email
> address I had for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him
> went unanswered.
>
> Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of
> weeks ago, I tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number.
> The work number was changed. The home phone answering message was
> one of those digital non-descript messages so I didn't know if that
> was the right number. His cell had his name; I left a couple of
> messages. When he finally called back, after 2-weeks of calling, I
> told him his bill was $20,000+ and wanted to know what he wanted to do
> with the plane. He said he didn't think $20,000 was fair, that he'd
> come up on Saturday and we'd talk about it. Saturday came and went
> without a phone call; he never showed. I called his cell about 5pm to
> see what his plan was. No answer.
>
> So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his
> wife gets all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things,
> the owner is calm but realizes it may be too late to continue the
> restoration without some serious cash.
>
> Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff
> he ordered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for
> the braces. With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
>
> At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior,
> horizontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else.
> Without labor, there is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the
> plane airworthy.
>
> What would you do?
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: here's the situation. what would you do? |
I'd file a mechanics lien and maybe talk to an attorney. You shouldn't
have deducted all of the expense for the tail braces and DER, maybe half
of it possibly. With this kind of situation you have to get a
substantial deposit up front after things are identified before you sink
a lot of money and time in to it.
Cliff
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt
To: Teamgrumman List
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here's the situation. what would you do?
In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in
Sacramento. The owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying miles
from Mather. At the time of the annual, I recorded a few minor cracks
in the horizontal supports. The CE was new at that time. I told him,
we'd look at it the next year.
In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it
since the last annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had
flown about 35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to
Mather; he could have come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me.
At any rate, I got to Mather about sunset (in May). The plane had a
dead battery and a flat tire. After putting air in the tire and jumping
the battery, I started the engine. The landing light was burned out.
None of the panel lights worked. I managed to taxi to the runway and
fly the plane to Auburn.
During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged.
Both attach holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the braces
were badly bent. The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear the
entire plane apart and do a ground up restoration. He'd do most of the
work. Fine. So, he came up every weekend for several months and took
stuff apart. He removed the wings and stripped off the paint. We found
some damage, but, nothing terrible. The entire plane was disassembled.
No windows, no seats, no wiring, no instrument panel, . . . . nothing
but a bare fuselage. I got his prop overhauled. I got his canopy
headliner recovered. We were making progress. He ordered a Power Flow
Exhaust system; paid cash. He ordered the later style seats; paid cash.
He put a deposit on a new cowling. He said I could take some of the
avionics to the AYA in Fredericksburg, TX 2006, and sell them to recover
some money. I did.
Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their
first kid. That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the
$50,000 he had saved for the restoration was given to his wife's sister
and her husband so they could buy the house down the street. The last
time I saw him was Christmas of 2006. I called in January of 2007 and
left a message asking what the next step was going to be. I never did
get a call back. As I recall, my next step was to complete the redesign
of the horizontal braces and get an approved bonding process, then
install the braces.
In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and
started paying rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than leaving
it outside. I had no room in my hangar.
Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I
removed the damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new
braces, and began designing new braces. I finished the redesign of the
braces in early 2008. I paid an engineer $4000 for the stress analysis,
redesigned braces made into CAD drawings, all of the research for the
bonding process and FAA approval. Then, I paid a DER another $1500 to
review the entire package and submit it to the FAA for field approval.
The braces were never installed.
I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email
address I had for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him
went unanswered.
Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of
weeks ago, I tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number. The
work number was changed. The home phone answering message was one of
those digital non-descript messages so I didn't know if that was the
right number. His cell had his name; I left a couple of messages. When
he finally called back, after 2-weeks of calling, I told him his bill
was $20,000+ and wanted to know what he wanted to do with the plane. He
said he didn't think $20,000 was fair, that he'd come up on Saturday and
we'd talk about it. Saturday came and went without a phone call; he
never showed. I called his cell about 5pm to see what his plan was. No
answer.
So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his
wife gets all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things,
the owner is calm but realizes it may be too late to continue the
restoration without some serious cash.
Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff
he ordered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for the
braces. With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior,
horizontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else. Without
labor, there is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the plane
airworthy.
What would you do?
Message 10
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Compared to how stiff it was several years=2C this is a dream. I hadn't no
ticed the movement in the 40 hours since I left Auburn so I was slightly co
ncerned something had broke=2C but it doesn't sound like a major problem.
My only complaint with Gary is now my flights are faster than the duration
of my daughter's naps.
> No matter what I do=2C someone complains. Sheeesh.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: here's the situation. what would you do? |
Not being in the business, I may be way off target, but I'd:
1 First off, I'd itemize the expenses not paid, and send him a bill
for that amount .... registered mail. I can see reducing the bill for
things he paid for, but wouldn't discount your labor.
2 Send him a registered letter telling him you are going to take the
airplane as abandoned, and file a mechanics lien on the money owed. Not
real sure on the 'correct' way to accomplish this.
3 If that didn't get his attention, I'd spend a little $$ to have a
lawyer draw up a letter .... just to make things 'legal'.
4 Call Guido, explain the problem, and let him handle it. The less you
know, the better.
I doubt he's ever going to finish the project or move it somewhere else.
Linn
On 10/13/2010 1:25 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in
> Sacramento. The owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying
> miles from Mather. At the time of the annual, I recorded a few minor
> cracks in the horizontal supports. The CE was new at that time. I
> told him, we'd look at it the next year.
>
> In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it
> since the last annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
>
> In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had
> flown about 35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to
> Mather; he could have come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me.
> At any rate, I got to Mather about sunset (in May). The plane had a
> dead battery and a flat tire. After putting air in the tire and
> jumping the battery, I started the engine. The landing light was
> burned out. None of the panel lights worked. I managed to taxi to
> the runway and fly the plane to Auburn.
>
> During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged.
> Both attach holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the
> braces were badly bent. The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear
> the entire plane apart and do a ground up restoration. He'd do most
> of the work. Fine. So, he came up every weekend for several months
> and took stuff apart. He removed the wings and stripped off the
> paint. We found some damage, but, nothing terrible. The entire plane
> was disassembled. No windows, no seats, no wiring, no instrument
> panel, . . . . nothing but a bare fuselage. I got his prop
> overhauled. I got his canopy headliner recovered. We were making
> progress. He ordered a Power Flow Exhaust system; paid cash. He
> ordered the later style seats; paid cash. He put a deposit on a new
> cowling. He said I could take some of the avionics to the AYA in
> Fredericksburg, TX 2006, and sell them to recover some money. I did.
>
> Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their
> first kid. That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the
> $50,000 he had saved for the restoration was given to his wife's
> sister and her husband so they could buy the house down the street.
> The last time I saw him was Christmas of 2006. I called in January
> of 2007 and left a message asking what the next step was going to be.
> I never did get a call back. As I recall, my next step was to
> complete the redesign of the horizontal braces and get an approved
> bonding process, then install the braces.
>
> In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and
> started paying rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than
> leaving it outside. I had no room in my hangar.
>
> Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I
> removed the damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new
> braces, and began designing new braces. I finished the redesign of
> the braces in early 2008. I paid an engineer $4000 for the stress
> analysis, redesigned braces made into CAD drawings, all of the
> research for the bonding process and FAA approval. Then, I paid a DER
> another $1500 to review the entire package and submit it to the FAA
> for field approval. The braces were never installed.
>
> I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
>
> Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email
> address I had for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him
> went unanswered.
>
> Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of
> weeks ago, I tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number.
> The work number was changed. The home phone answering message was
> one of those digital non-descript messages so I didn't know if that
> was the right number. His cell had his name; I left a couple of
> messages. When he finally called back, after 2-weeks of calling, I
> told him his bill was $20,000+ and wanted to know what he wanted to do
> with the plane. He said he didn't think $20,000 was fair, that he'd
> come up on Saturday and we'd talk about it. Saturday came and went
> without a phone call; he never showed. I called his cell about 5pm to
> see what his plan was. No answer.
>
> So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his
> wife gets all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things,
> the owner is calm but realizes it may be too late to continue the
> restoration without some serious cash.
>
> Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff
> he ordered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for
> the braces. With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
>
> At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior,
> horizontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else.
> Without labor, there is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the
> plane airworthy.
>
> What would you do?
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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| Subject: | here's the situation. what would you do? |
Gary,
I agree with the others but the lien may only be a threat since you may
not
want the plane. A Cheetah needing $50k in repairs has value only as
parts
since it would cost more to fix it than it would be worth after you were
done. But if you decide they might as well be your parts rather than
his,
get an attorney, file the lien and show no mercy!
Dean
Dean White (Tiger N81166)
Edmonds, WA 98026
dmwhite@e3ra.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:26 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: here's the situation. what would you do?
In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in Sacramento.
The owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying miles from Mather.
At
the time of the annual, I recorded a few minor cracks in the horizontal
supports. The CE was new at that time. I told him, we'd look at it the
next year.
In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it since
the
last annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had
flown
about 35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to Mather; he
could have come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me. At any
rate, I
got to Mather about sunset (in May). The plane had a dead battery and a
flat tire. After putting air in the tire and jumping the battery, I
started
the engine. The landing light was burned out. None of the panel lights
worked. I managed to taxi to the runway and fly the plane to Auburn.
During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged.
Both
attach holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the braces were
badly bent. The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear the entire
plane
apart and do a ground up restoration. He'd do most of the work. Fine.
So,
he came up every weekend for several months and took stuff apart. He
removed the wings and stripped off the paint. We found some damage,
but,
nothing terrible. The entire plane was disassembled. No windows, no
seats,
no wiring, no instrument panel, . . . . nothing but a bare fuselage. I
got
his prop overhauled. I got his canopy headliner recovered. We were
making
progress. He ordered a Power Flow Exhaust system; paid cash. He
ordered
the later style seats; paid cash. He put a deposit on a new cowling.
He
said I could take some of the avionics to the AYA in Fredericksburg, TX
2006, and sell them to recover some money. I did.
Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their first
kid. That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the $50,000
he
had saved for the restoration was given to his wife's sister and her
husband
so they could buy the house down the street. The last time I saw him
was
Christmas of 2006. I called in January of 2007 and left a message
asking
what the next step was going to be. I never did get a call back. As I
recall, my next step was to complete the redesign of the horizontal
braces
and get an approved bonding process, then install the braces.
In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and started
paying rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than leaving it
outside.
I had no room in my hangar.
Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I
removed
the damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new braces, and
began
designing new braces. I finished the redesign of the braces in early
2008.
I paid an engineer $4000 for the stress analysis, redesigned braces made
into CAD drawings, all of the research for the bonding process and FAA
approval. Then, I paid a DER another $1500 to review the entire package
and
submit it to the FAA for field approval. The braces were never
installed.
I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email
address I
had for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him went
unanswered.
Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of
weeks
ago, I tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number. The work
number was changed. The home phone answering message was one of those
digital non-descript messages so I didn't know if that was the right
number.
His cell had his name; I left a couple of messages. When he finally
called
back, after 2-weeks of calling, I told him his bill was $20,000+ and
wanted
to know what he wanted to do with the plane. He said he didn't think
$20,000 was fair, that he'd come up on Saturday and we'd talk about it.
Saturday came and went without a phone call; he never showed. I called
his
cell about 5pm to see what his plan was. No answer.
So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his
wife
gets all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things, the
owner
is calm but realizes it may be too late to continue the restoration
without
some serious cash.
Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff he
ordered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for the
braces. With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior,
horizontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else. Without
labor, there is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the plane
airworthy.
What would you do?
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: here's the situation. what would you do? |
Hi Linn,
One-by-one . . . .
1 First off, I'd itemize the expenses not paid, and send him a bill for
that amount .... registered mail. I can see reducing the bill for things he
paid for, but wouldn't discount your labor.
--- I did. I made two invoices: (1) with all of my expenses (>$20,000) and;
(2) the other with everything off except direct expenses (approx $2000).
2 Send him a registered letter telling him you are going to take the
airplane as abandoned, and file a mechanics lien on the money owed. Not
real sure on the 'correct' way to accomplish this.\\
--- this is next.
3 If that didn't get his attention, I'd spend a little $$ to have a lawyer
draw up a letter .... just to make things 'legal'.
--- this is next.
4 Call Guido, explain the problem, and let him handle it. The less you
know, the better.
--- talked to Tony.
I doubt he's ever going to finish the project or move it somewhere else.
Linn
On 10/13/2010 1:25 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
In 2004, I did an annual on a plane based at Mather Field in
Sacramento. The owner had heard I was moving to Auburn, 7 flying
miles from Mather. At the time of the annual, I recorded a few minor
cracks in the horizontal supports. The CE was new at that time. I
told him, we'd look at it the next year.
>
>
>In 2005, the braces were bent more. The plane had 35 hours on it
>since the last annual. I did the annual and he was gone.
>
>
>In 2006, he called to ask if I'd come and pick up the plane. He had
>flown about 35 hours that year also. I don't remember how I got to
>Mather; he could have come and picked me up or maybe a friend took me.
> At any rate, I got to Mather about sunset (in May). The plane had
a
>dead battery and a flat tire. After putting air in the tire and
>jumping the battery, I started the engine. The landing light was
>burned out. None of the panel lights worked. I managed to taxi to
>the runway and fly the plane to Auburn.
>
>
>During that annual, I found that the braces were extremely damaged.
> Both attach holes, for the horizontal, were badly cracked and the
>braces were badly bent. The owner wasn't phased. His solution: tear
>the entire plane apart and do a ground up restoration. He'd do most
>of the work. Fine. So, he came up every weekend for several months
>and took stuff apart. He removed the wings and stripped off the
>paint. We found some damage, but, nothing terrible. The entire plane
>was disassembled. No windows, no seats, no wiring, no instrument
>panel, . . . . nothing but a bare fuselage. I got his prop
>overhauled. I got his canopy headliner recovered. We were making
>progress. He ordered a Power Flow Exhaust system; paid cash. He
>ordered the later style seats; paid cash. He put a deposit on a new
>cowling. He said I could take some of the avionics to the AYA in
>Fredericksburg, TX 2006, and sell them to recover some money. I did.
>
>
>
>Then, in September 2006, his wife of 10 months gave birth to their
>first kid. That was the last time he came to the hangar. Then, the
>$50,000 he had saved for the restoration was given to his wife's
>sister and her husband so they could buy the house down the street.
> The last time I saw him was Christmas of 2006. I called in January
>of 2007 and left a message asking what the next step was going to be.
> I never did get a call back. As I recall, my next step was to
>complete the redesign of the horizontal braces and get an approved
>bonding process, then install the braces.
>
>
>In March 2007, I put his plane in the hangar across from me and
>started paying rent on the hangar. I figured it was better than
>leaving it outside. I had no room in my hangar.
>
>
>Over the next several months, I worked on the tail of the plane. I
>removed the damaged braces, stripped and prepped the area for new
>braces, and began designing new braces. I finished the redesign of
>the braces in early 2008. I paid an engineer $4000 for the stress
>analysis, redesigned braces made into CAD drawings, all of the
>research for the bonding process and FAA approval. Then, I paid a DER
>another $1500 to review the entire package and submit it to the FAA
>for field approval. The braces were never installed.
>
>
>I also began repair of some damage to the left wing.
>
>
>Then I stopped working on the plane. I just stored it. The email
>address I had for the owner was changed at some point. Calls to him
>went unanswered.
>
>
>Now, here it is, some 4 years after the project began. A couple of
>weeks ago, I tried calling his cell, his home, and his work number.
> The work number was changed. The home phone answering message was
>one of those digital non-descript messages so I didn't know if that
>was the right number. His cell had his name; I left a couple of
>messages. When he finally called back, after 2-weeks of calling, I
>told him his bill was $20,000+ and wanted to know what he wanted to
do
>with the plane. He said he didn't think $20,000 was fair, that
>he'd come up on Saturday and we'd talk about it. Saturday came and
>went without a phone call; he never showed. I called his cell about
>5pm to see what his plan was. No answer.
>
>
>So, yesterday, he shows up, unannounced. We discuss the invoice, his
>wife gets all . . . . and starts accusing me of all sorts of things,
>the owner is calm but realizes it may be too late to continue the
>restoration without some serious cash.
>
>
>Today I'm sending him a revised invoice. I took off all of the stuff
>he ordered: Power Flow, seats, cowling, plus delete the expenses for
>the braces. With the cash he's paid up front, he still owes $2000.
>
>
>At this point, the plane needs an engine, reassembly, paint, interior,
>horizontal braces replaces, avionics, and who knows what else.
> Without labor, there is at least $50,000 in expenses to make the
>plane airworthy.
>
>
>What would you do?
>
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