Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:44 AM - Re: Glove Box Advice (Scott Trejo)
2. 11:40 AM - Engine trust angle (Gary Vogt)
3. 12:36 PM - I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle (Gary Vogt)
4. 04:44 PM - Re: I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle (Gary Vogt)
5. 05:36 PM - Re: I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle (discover)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Glove Box Advice |
Don, I'm on a trip right now, when I get back home I will look and see
the condition. I removed it 3 years ago, so I also have to find it in
my hanger. I'll let you know on the cost.
Scott Trejo
md11strejo@yahoo.com
On Oct 29, 2010, at 10:24 PM, Don Curry wrote:
> Gary,
> I=92d like to tinker with a salvaged box/lid assembly, but I don=92t
have one. There is a good chance that the door could be adjusted to one
side so it wouldn=92t interfere with the adjacent radio stack. But I
don=92t know about any of the other dimensions. As it is, I=92m
starting from scratch. If I come up with a good solution, I=92ll post
it.
> Don
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:10 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Glove Box Advice
>
> Hi Don,
>
> I've thought about doing that, making the avionics stack a double wide
and not as tall, and then putting a pseudo glove box for maps under one
of the radio stacks. If the AA5x glove box is the right width, I'd
mount it to the avionics rails. You can easily drill through the glove
box. Make your own door.
>
> Take pics. Let us see how it turns out.
>
> Gary
>
> From: Don Curry <don.curry@inbox.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 3:06:40 PM
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Glove Box Advice
>
> I=92m looking for some fab advice. . .er, fabrication fab, not
fabulous fab! I have decided to rearrange the avionics in my Tiger and
install a glove box in the radio rack in place of one or two old
receivers. I thought about using a salvaged AA5 glovebox, but I
understand it utilizes a surface mount and couldn=92t be installed with
screws into the radio rack (the way a radio tray is). Also, I believe
the AA5 glovebox door would have too much overlap and interfere with the
adjacent radio stack about 3/8=94-1/2=94 to the left. I know Vans sells
a map box kit, and it is a contender, but it looks like the door is a
flat piece of sheet aluminum and, from what I have read online, builders
have had a hard time getting it to open properly. Anyway, I=92d prefer
something with a little more substance than the Vans map box. The width
of the box needs to be 6.25=94 to fit the radio opening. I=92m not sure
yet about the height, but I expect to have 4-6=94 available after
removing the old radio/s. I know it=92s a longshot, but does anybody
know of an =93aftermarket=94 glovebox with a decent door that will screw
into a standard radio rack? Fiberglass, plastic, aluminum, automotive,
marine, or aviation would be fine.
> Thanks in advance,
> Don
>
>
> Publish your photos in seconds for FREE
> Try IM ToolPack at www.imtoolpack.com
>
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matro
n="_blank"
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.co
http:/=======================
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> Try FREE IM ToolPack at www.imtoolpack.com
> Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends
> through IMs, post on Twitter=AE, Facebook=AE, MySpace=99, LinkedIn=AE
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>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Engine trust angle |
I got a Tiger in the other day and it's spinner was not centered on the
cowling/nosebowl. The engine was installed by Bill Scott.
The shims/spacers used were:
Upper Left: 0
Upper Right: 2
Lower Left: 0
Lower Right: 0
The alignment showed I needed at least one added to the lower right. Not the
easiest one to change, mind you. I removed the cowling, got a cherry-picker
(no, not a Mexican), and lifted the engine enough to get a shim in. We'll see
when the cowling goes back on.
That got me to thinking. Just how do you 'set' the engine "Thrust Angle?"
One of the Grumman guys, a well known racer, told me he sets his engine to a
"ZERO" thrust angle. Now, I know that's total bullshit because there is a
thrust angle built into the engine mount, so I asked, "Just how do you set the
engine at a zero thrust angle?" His replay was, "just like the factory sets
it." So, just how does the factory set the thrust angle . . . after the engine
mount is built?
Many of you may remember me asking about the shims on your engines and the
distance to the back of the spinner. I didn't get a lot of replies, I mean, who
wants to go out and look at their engine mounts and measure the distance to the
prop, right? Still, each one of the Jaguar cowlings has required a different
set of spacers/shims on the engine mounts to get the engine to line up with the
cowling.
Who says the cowling is right???? That's the BIG question. The plane from which
I made the tooling, that's who. During the modeling of the basic cowling form,
I used an O360 block with a crank and one shim at each engine mount. I knew I
needed at least one shim on the bottom mounts, so, hey, why not one on each?
When I installed that cowling on my plane, I needed two on the upper left and
upper right. One on each bottom.
The spare airplane used 2 thick plus one thin spacer on the right and two thick
on the left.
So, which one is right????????
How is the thrust angle set after the engine mount and engine are installed on
the plane?????
Message 3
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| Subject: | I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle |
________________________________
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 11:37:40 AM
Subject: Engine trust angle
I got a Tiger in the other day and it's spinner was not centered on the
cowling/nosebowl. The engine was installed by Bill Scott.
The shims/spacers used were:
Upper Left: 0
Upper Right: 2
Lower Left: 0
Lower Right: 0
The alignment showed I needed at least one added to the lower right. Not the
easiest one to change, mind you. I removed the cowling, got a cherry-picker
(no, not a Mexican), and lifted the engine enough to get a shim in. We'll see
when the cowling goes back on.
That got me to thinking. Just how do you 'set' the engine "Thrust Angle?"
One of the Grumman guys, a well known racer, told me he sets his engine to a
"ZERO" thrust angle. Now, I know that's total bullshit because there is a
thrust angle built into the engine mount, so I asked, "Just how do you set the
engine at a zero thrust angle?" His replay was, "just like the factory sets
it." So, just how does the factory set the thrust angle . . . after the engine
mount is built?
Many of you may remember me asking about the shims on your engines and the
distance to the back of the spinner. I didn't get a lot of replies, I mean, who
wants to go out and look at their engine mounts and measure the distance to the
prop, right? Still, each one of the Jaguar cowlings has required a different
set of spacers/shims on the engine mounts to get the engine to line up with the
cowling.
Who says the cowling is right???? That's the BIG question. The plane from which
I made the tooling, that's who. During the modeling of the basic cowling form,
I used an O360 block with a crank and one shim at each engine mount. I knew I
needed at least one shim on the bottom mounts, so, hey, why not one on each?
When I installed that cowling on my plane, I needed two on the upper left and
upper right. One on each bottom.
The spare airplane used 2 thick plus one thin spacer on the right and two thick
on the left.
So, which one is right????????
How is the thrust angle set after the engine mount and engine are installed on
the plane?????
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle |
I put the cowling on today and its alignment looks perfect.
________________________________
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@YAHOO.COM>
Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 12:34:28 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle
________________________________
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 11:37:40 AM
Subject: Engine trust angle
I got a Tiger in the other day and it's spinner was not centered on the
cowling/nosebowl. The engine was installed by Bill Scott.
The shims/spacers used were:
Upper Left: 0
Upper Right: 2
Lower Left: 0
Lower Right: 0
The alignment showed I needed at least one added to the lower right. Not the
easiest one to change, mind you. I removed the cowling, got a cherry-picker
(no, not a Mexican), and lifted the engine enough to get a shim in. We'll see
when the cowling goes back on.
That got me to thinking. Just how do you 'set' the engine "Thrust Angle?"
One of the Grumman guys, a well known racer, told me he sets his engine to a
"ZERO" thrust angle. Now, I know that's total bullshit because there is a
thrust angle built into the engine mount, so I asked, "Just how do you set the
engine at a zero thrust angle?" His replay was, "just like the factory sets
it." So, just how does the factory set the thrust angle . . . after the engine
mount is built?
Many of you may remember me asking about the shims on your engines and the
distance to the back of the spinner. I didn't get a lot of replies, I mean, who
wants to go out and look at their engine mounts and measure the distance to the
prop, right? Still, each one of the Jaguar cowlings has required a different
set of spacers/shims on the engine mounts to get the engine to line up with the
cowling.
Who says the cowling is right???? That's the BIG question. The plane from which
I made the tooling, that's who. During the modeling of the basic cowling form,
I used an O360 block with a crank and one shim at each engine mount. I knew I
needed at least one shim on the bottom mounts, so, hey, why not one on each?
When I installed that cowling on my plane, I needed two on the upper left and
upper right. One on each bottom.
The spare airplane used 2 thick plus one thin spacer on the right and two thick
on the left.
So, which one is right????????
How is the thrust angle set after the engine mount and engine are installed on
the plane?????
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: I.E., Engine "THRUST" angle |
As I understand it:
At the factory the engine mount is installed on the engine while the engine is
on a stand before being mounted to the airframe. Typically one shim / washer is
installed on each of the 4 mounts.
Initially, the engine mount is received from the mount maker and set on a granite
surface that is certified within certain limits to be 'flat'. Certified, calibrated
height gauges are used to measure the height of components of the mount
from the flat surface and it is determined that the mount conforms within a
certain tolerance to the drawings. All the mounts are to be the same within that
close tolerance.
At station 10 the engine / mount assembly is installed on the airframe. As I understand
it, Station 10 determines / ensures the proper alignment of the engine.
Station 5 determines / ensures proper alignment of the cowl to the engine
that has already been proven to be in correct alignment at station 10.
Field procedure for the verification of the proper alignment of the engine is to
align the back of the spinner to the front of the nose bowl. Adjustments are
made by shimming the engine to the nose bowl. The cowling nose bowl is the determining
factor for alignment of the engine after the airplane leaves the factory,
this is what I was trying to communicate to Gary recently and why I ask
him repeatedly to adjust my engine to fit the original cowling before he installed
the Jaguar cowling.
This alignment is made at the factory to be within .020" of center between the
two. With 1 shim in each mount the front of the nose bowl on the cowling should
be at station 10.775 i.e. 39.225" from the firewall (50- 10.775 = 39.225)
When Gary and I were discussing the misalignment of his Jaguar cowl on my Tiger
I probably misspoke about zero thrust. I was talking in the context of the relationship
between the nose bowl and the spinner where as above the difference
in alignment is required to be less than .020 when the plane leaves station 5
at the factory.
As I understand it, the thrust angle of the engine is 0 in the vertical plane and
2 deg right in the horizontal plane.
If one were to build 4 jigs for the engine mount in place of the 4 rubber isolation
mounts and such jigs would hold "dowel rods" and those dowels were extended
forward they would intersect at a focal point. This focal point would be 28.72"
forward of the firewall and be .032" left from butt line zero and sit .23"
above the Waterline i.e. Wl +45.230. The waterline is spec'd to 3 decimal
places so this position specification has 3 digit accuracy.
If one were to look at the backbone of the engine (as I understand this it is the
seam at the back of the engine) and compare this with a hole in the tab on
the engine mount where the ground strap is attached one should see these two points
in alignment. These two aligned points are offset .085" left of the butt
line.
If one were to bisect the distance between the upper engine mounts, center to center
of bolt and extend that point parallel with the longitudinal axis/ water
line/ butt line, into the firewall one would measure a 1.316" offset left of
the butt line.
These figures were given me during a telecon with someone who knows this stuff
and I believe them to reflect accurately, however take them at your own risk as
I cannot guarantee that I understood properly or heard accurateley.
Now, if I can get back to the hangar to start the extensive fiberglass work required
to "repair" and "refit" the Jaguar cowl to the correct position then I may
someday give you some good flight test data on the really cool looking Jaguar
cowl.....
Fit of Jaguar AFTER aligning engine with factory cowl:
http://picasaweb.google.com/N923TE/Jaguar#5533998216035740578
http://picasaweb.google.com/N923TE/Jaguar#5533998217466856546
Fit of Jaguar both before and after engine alignment:
http://picasaweb.google.com/N923TE/Jaguar#5533998217210050226
http://picasaweb.google.com/N923TE/Jaguar#5533998221583687538
A hole in the baffle that needs to be made larger. Large enough to access the engine
mount nut with a tool.
http://picasaweb.google.com/N923TE/Jaguar#5533999455320704962
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
Ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317535#317535
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