Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:15 AM - Reminder (Matt Dralle)
1. 10:14 AM - cylinder woes (Dj Merrill)
2. 10:44 AM - Re: cylinder woes (Gary Vogt)
3. 11:03 AM - Re: cylinder woes (Curt Johnson)
4. 01:41 PM - Re: Challanger Air Filter (923te)
5. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Challanger Air Filter (Gary Vogt)
6. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Challanger Air Filter (923te)
7. 04:24 PM - Re: cylinder woes (Dj Merrill)
8. 04:24 PM - Re: cylinder woes (Dj Merrill)
9. 04:31 PM - Re: cylinder woes (Dj Merrill)
10. 04:45 PM - Re: cylinder woes (923te)
11. 04:47 PM - Re: cylinder woes (923te)
12. 04:57 PM - Re: cylinder woes (923te)
13. 08:24 PM - Re: Re: Challanger Air Filter (Gary Vogt)
14. 08:54 PM - Engine "THRUST" angle: Page one. (Gary Vogt)
15. 09:29 PM - Engine Thrust Angle: Page two. Leveling the plane (Gary Vogt)
16. 09:38 PM - Engine Thrust Line: Page three. Is the engine level. (Gary Vogt)
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Dear Listers,
A quick reminder that November is the annual List Fund Raiser. The Matronics Lists
are 100% member supported and all of the operational costs are provided for
my your Contributions during this time of the year.
Your personal Contribution makes a big difference and keeps all of the Matronics
Email Lists and Forums completely ad-free.
Please make your Contribution today to keep these services up and running!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator
Message 1
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My 1975 AA1B with the standard O235 with approx 1400 hours SMOH is in
for annual, and after sending my cylinders away due to leaks detected it
turns out that 3 of them have cracks in the cylinder heads. The shop
said the cost of repair was approx $1100 each, so it doesn't make sense
to do this since new ones are close to the same price.
Recommendations as to where to buy new cylinder assemblies? I have an
extremely limited budget so cost is a factor.
Part of me is wondering if it is worth putting this much money into the
plane.
How much is an AA1B worth that needs to have 3 cylinders replaced?
How much is one worth with 4 new cylinder assemblies with about 1400
SMOH, 3200 hours total time airframe?
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
The TBO is 2400 hours. RIght? Put all new cylinders on it and fly it for
another 1000 hours without worrying about when the last one will fail. I'm a
firm believer in new cylinders at mid time.
Dave White's AA1B needed new cylinders. We happened to get a set of cylinders
from Ken at Lycon with 10 hours on them. They had been prepped for a race
engine and not used. Dave paid $4000 for them with all the custom work already
done. With 50 hours on them, compressions are 79/80 and the plane runs nice.
________________________________
From: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 9:45:35 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: cylinder woes
My 1975 AA1B with the standard O235 with approx 1400 hours SMOH is in
for annual, and after sending my cylinders away due to leaks detected it
turns out that 3 of them have cracks in the cylinder heads. The shop
said the cost of repair was approx $1100 each, so it doesn't make sense
to do this since new ones are close to the same price.
Recommendations as to where to buy new cylinder assemblies? I have an
extremely limited budget so cost is a factor.
Part of me is wondering if it is worth putting this much money into the
plane.
How much is an AA1B worth that needs to have 3 cylinders replaced?
How much is one worth with 4 new cylinder assemblies with about 1400
SMOH, 3200 hours total time airframe?
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
I paid $19,900 for a '73 with about 1280 TT and 100 STOH.
Curt
On 11/5/2010 9:45 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Dj Merrill<deej@deej.net>
>
> My 1975 AA1B with the standard O235 with approx 1400 hours SMOH is in
> for annual, and after sending my cylinders away due to leaks detected it
> turns out that 3 of them have cracks in the cylinder heads. The shop
> said the cost of repair was approx $1100 each, so it doesn't make sense
> to do this since new ones are close to the same price.
>
> Recommendations as to where to buy new cylinder assemblies? I have an
> extremely limited budget so cost is a factor.
>
> Part of me is wondering if it is worth putting this much money into the
> plane.
>
> How much is an AA1B worth that needs to have 3 cylinders replaced?
>
> How much is one worth with 4 new cylinder assemblies with about 1400
> SMOH, 3200 hours total time airframe?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Dj
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Challanger Air Filter |
Hey Adam,
If you get the Jaguar cowl you can get an FAA approved installation of
the challanger filter with the 70's style airbox on you AG5B. That's how
my AG5B is as it sits today. It is really nice to have that extra 1/2" -
1" manifold pressure back!
Gary Vogt is also working on an AG5B cowling that would have an air
inlet on the left air intake instead of the OEM location. He might get
that all approved within the next 7 years.....
Ned
N923TE
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Challanger Air Filter |
This is the new inlet for the AG5B. Dave had to do a minor change on the air
filter cover, but, other than that, it's ready to install.
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 1:42:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Challanger Air Filter
Hey Adam,
If you get the Jaguar cowl you can get an FAA approved installation of the
challanger filter with the 70's style airbox on you AG5B. That's how my AG5B is
as it sits today. It is really nice to have that extra 1/2" - 1" manifold
pressure back!
Gary Vogt is also working on an AG5B cowling that would have an air inlet on
the left air intake instead of the OEM location. He might get that all approved
within the next 7 years.....
Ned
N923TE
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Challanger Air Filter |
Gary
Would you like me to forward this to the Grumman gang so Adam will see it?
Ned
On Nov 5, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is the new inlet for the AG5B. Dave had to do a minor change on the a
ir filter cover, but, other than that, it's ready to install.
>
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: gang 1 <grumman-gang@mailman.xmission.com>
> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 1:42:05 PM
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Challanger Air Filter
>
> Hey Adam,
>
> If you get the Jaguar cowl you can get an FAA approved installation of the
challanger filter with the 70's style airbox on you AG5B. That's how my AG5
B is as it sits today. It is really nice to have that extra 1/2" - 1" manifo
ld pressure back!
>
> Gary Vogt is also working on an AG5B cowling that would have an air inlet o
n the left air intake instead of the OEM location. He might get that all app
roved within the next 7 years.....
>
> Ned
> N923TE
>
>
>
> <IMG_0952.jpg>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
On 11/5/2010 1:34 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> The TBO is 2400 hours. RIght? Put all new cylinders on it and fly it
> for another 1000 hours without worrying about when the last one will
> fail. I'm a firm believer in new cylinders at mid time.
Hi Gary,
I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not rich. New Lyc cyls are about
$1600 each, so that's over $6k for 4 new cyls, not including labor.
I think at this point I'm just going to post an ad asking $12k for it
as-is, and see if I get any interest.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
On 11/5/2010 1:34 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> The TBO is 2400 hours. RIght? Put all new cylinders on it and fly it
> for another 1000 hours without worrying about when the last one will
> fail. I'm a firm believer in new cylinders at mid time.
Hi Gary,
I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not rich. New Lyc cyls are about
$1600 each, so that's over $6k for 4 new cyls, not including labor.
I think at this point I'm just going to post an ad asking $12k for it
as-is, and see if I get any interest.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
Alternatively, if someone knows of where I might find 4 used cylinders
that have been inspected by a qualified shop, and are ready to bolt on
and go, I might be interested in that option as well.
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
You might findbetter new cyl prices here:
http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/cylinders.asp?catid=70&subcat
=87
I have had good luck on rebuilds here:
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?s-type=part&s-seq=1&s-lvl=1&cat
egory=Engine+Parts&seller_id=53220
ned
----- Original Message -----
From: Dj Merrill
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cylinder woes
On 11/5/2010 1:34 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> The TBO is 2400 hours. RIght? Put all new cylinders on it and fly
it
> for another 1000 hours without worrying about when the last one will
> fail. I'm a firm believer in new cylinders at mid time.
Hi Gary,
I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not rich. New Lyc cyls are about
$1600 each, so that's over $6k for 4 new cyls, not including labor.
I think at this point I'm just going to post an ad asking $12k for it
as-is, and see if I get any interest.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ -
http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
this place is real good for rebuilding and / or having cylinders ready
to go with rings fitted:
http://dbaircraftengines.com/_wsn/page3.html
----- Original Message -----
From: 923te
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cylinder woes
You might findbetter new cyl prices here:
http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/cylinders.asp?catid=70&subcat
=87
I have had good luck on rebuilds here:
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?s-type=part&s-seq=1&s-lvl=1&cat
egory=Engine+Parts&seller_id=53220
ned
----- Original Message -----
From: Dj Merrill
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: cylinder woes
On 11/5/2010 1:34 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> The TBO is 2400 hours. RIght? Put all new cylinders on it and
fly it
> for another 1000 hours without worrying about when the last one
will
> fail. I'm a firm believer in new cylinders at mid time.
Hi Gary,
I'd love to, but unfortunately I'm not rich. New Lyc cyls are about
$1600 each, so that's over $6k for 4 new cyls, not including labor.
I think at this point I'm just going to post an ad asking $12k for
it
as-is, and see if I get any interest.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ -
http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: cylinder woes |
Probably get more back on your investment if you sold the plane later if
you bought the 320 STC. Call Maynard Crosby 425 493-7067
Maybe find a deal on a O320 like this
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_488131_Lyc+O320-E3D.html
and this
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_456700_New+O320WD+cylds.html
Or ???
You'd like the planes performance a whole lot better...
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Challanger Air Filter |
yes, thanks.
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 2:07:20 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Challanger Air Filter
Gary
Would you like me to forward this to the Grumman gang so Adam will see it?
Ned
On Nov 5, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is the new inlet for the AG5B. Dave had to do a minor change on the air
filter cover, but, other than that, it's ready to install.
>
>
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
>To: gang 1 <grumman-gang@mailman.xmission.com>
>Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 1:42:05 PM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Challanger Air Filter
>
>
>Hey Adam,
>
>If you get the Jaguar cowl you can get an FAA approved installation of the
>challanger filter with the 70's style airbox on you AG5B. That's how my AG5B
is
>as it sits today. It is really nice to have that extra 1/2" - 1" manifold
>pressure back!
>
>Gary Vogt is also working on an AG5B cowling that would have an air inlet on
>the left air intake instead of the OEM location. He might get that all approved
>within the next 7 years.....
>
>Ned
>N923TE
>
<IMG_0952.jpg>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Engine "THRUST" angle: Page one. |
I have reread the information in this email a couple of times. On the surface,
there appears to be a lot of valuable information. However . . . . I have a few
questions.
At the factory the engine mount is installed on the engine while the engine is
on a stand before being mounted to the airframe. Typically one shim / washer is
installed on each of the 4 mounts.
- - - - Typically. What does that mean, exactly? How does the installer
make that decision? Why not always install one shim?
Initially, the engine mount is received from the mount maker and set on a
granite surface that is certified within certain limits to be 'flat'. Certified,
calibrated height gauges are used to measure the height of components of the
mount from the flat surface and it is determined that the mount conforms within
a certain tolerance to the drawings. All the mounts are to be the same within
that close tolerance.
- - - - I can see that this would be part of the conformity check. This
makes total sense.
At station 10(,) the engine / mount assembly is installed on the airframe. As
I
understand it, Station 10 determines / ensures the proper alignment of the
engine. Station 5 determines / ensures proper alignment of the cowl to the
engine that has already been proven to be in correct alignment at station 10.
- - - - Is station 5 after station 10? If not, is the cowling removed
after shimming to correct? then checked again? How is the alignment determined
at station 10? Is there a jig/fixture to align the engine to the airframe?
What is the alignment goal? Is the alignment goal: For the engine to be the at
zero degrees vertical thrust line with respect to the airframe? If so, how is
the alignment of the engine mount brackets on the airframe aligned?
Field procedure for the verification of the proper alignment of the engine is to
align the back of the spinner to the front of the nose bowl. Adjustments are
made by shimming the engine to the nose bowl. The cowling nose bowl is the
determining factor for alignment of the engine after the airplane leaves the
factory, this is what I was trying to communicate to Gary recently and why I ask
him repeatedly to adjust my engine to fit the original cowling before he
installed the Jaguar cowling.
- - - - This statement tells me that it is known and expected for the
engine/engine mount/airframe attach points to have quite a degree of variation
and that the final determining factor is the position/location of the
nosebowl/cowling with respect to the airframe. When I install a cowling (any
cowling, any plane) I put the screws in all of the holes (without tightening any
of the screws), I then close the cowling, I check the alignment of the spinner
to the nosebowl and, if it's close, I tighten the screws in a special sequence.
If not, I will force the entire cowling assembly in the direction needed to
align it the best and then begin my sequence of screw tightening that maintains
that alignment. It is possible to move the alignment 1/4 of an inch.
This alignment is made at the factory to be within .020" of center between the
two. With 1 shim in each mount the front of the nose bowl on the cowling should
be at station 10.775 i.e. 39.225" from the firewall (50- 10.775 = 39.225)
- - - - This dimension is really esoteric. One coat of paint is typically
.005 thick. Plus, the number of shims does not affect the location of the
nosebowl. Perhaps I don't understand just what dimension is being scrutinized
within .020 inches.
When Gary and I were discussing the misalignment of his Jaguar cowl on my Tiger
I probably misspoke about zero thrust. I was talking in the context of the
relationship between the nose bowl and the spinner where as above the difference
in alignment is required to be less than .020 when the plane leaves station 5 at
the factory.
- - - - Again, I guess I don't understand this dimension and why it's so
critical. There isn't much on the entire plane that could be built to that
tolerance.
As I understand it, the thrust angle of the engine is 0 in the vertical plane
and 2 deg right in the horizontal plane.
- - - - THis I understand.
If one were to build 4 jigs for the engine mount in place of the 4 rubber
isolation mounts and such jigs would hold "dowel rods" and those dowels were
extended forward they would intersect at a focal point. This focal point would
be 28.72" forward of the firewall and be .032" left from butt line zero and sit
.23" above the Waterline i.e. Wl +45.230. The waterline is spec'd to 3 decimal
places so this position specification has 3 digit accuracy.
- - - - Not significant to the discussion of zero degrees thrust line
offset in the vertical direction.
If one were to look at the backbone of the engine (as I understand this it is
the seam at the back of the engine) and compare this with a hole in the tab on
the engine mount where the ground strap is attached one should see these two
points in alignment. These two aligned points are offset .085" left of the butt
line.
- - - - Not significant to the discussion of zero degrees thrust line
offset in the vertical direction.
If one were to bisect the distance between the upper engine mounts, center to
center of bolt and extend that point parallel with the longitudinal axis/ water
line/ butt line, into the firewall one would measure a 1.316" offset left of the
butt line.
- - - - Not significant to the discussion of zero degrees thrust line
offset in the vertical direction.
These figures were given me during a telecon with someone who knows this stuff
and I believe them to reflect accurately, however take them at your own risk as
I cannot guarantee that I understood properly or heard accurateley.
Now, if I can get back to the hangar to start the extensive fiberglass work
required to "repair" and "refit" the Jaguar cowl to the correct position then I
may someday give you some good flight test data on the really cool looking
Jaguar cowl.....
Fit of Jaguar AFTER aligning engine with factory cowl:
- - - - This assumes the factory cowl is correct.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Engine Thrust Angle: Page two. Leveling the plane |
I leveled my plane today. Not a simple feat. Turns out, I needed about 4
inches under the main gear plus a jack under the tail tie down to lift it an
additional 3 inches. Then, I removed air from the right tire to level it
side-to-side.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Engine Thrust Line: Page three. Is the engine level. |
After spending something like 2 hours trying to figure out how to level the
plane, now it was time to check the level of the engine.
I first set the magnetic angle finder on the #4 cylinder rocker cover.
Then #2 rocker
Then #3 rocker
Then #1 rocker.
For all practical purposes, the engine appeared to be aligned with the airframe.
Mind you, I have 2 spacers on each of the top two engine mounts. Looking
closely, the engine does appear to be negative thrust angle by less than 1/2
degree. The resolution is not great. I would have to say the needle was just
a
shade toward 1/2 degree down on all 4 rocker covers.
You draw your own conclusions.
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