Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:15 AM - AG5B demisters (grumpyparts)
2. 05:30 AM - Cylinder woes (FLYaDIVE)
3. 05:39 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (Linn Walters)
4. 05:56 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (flyv35b)
5. 06:54 AM - Re: Cylinder woes (Dj Merrill)
6. 09:36 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (grumpyparts)
7. 10:14 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (Gary Vogt)
8. 10:25 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (Doug Ilg)
9. 10:54 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (grumpyparts)
10. 11:00 AM - Re: Cylinder woes (Gary Vogt)
11. 11:19 AM - Re: AG5B demisters (grumpyparts)
12. 11:43 AM - Power Flow (Gary Vogt)
13. 12:12 PM - Fuel vent line. 1979 Cheetah. (Gary Vogt)
14. 04:15 PM - Re: Cylinder woes (FLYaDIVE)
Message 1
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Always believed that the AG5B's de-misters were the same as the AA5's, but no.
Have now found two AG5B's recently with badly deformed parts due to overheating
and need replacements. Have any of you come across this problem before, if so
what did you replace them with.
Here's a picture of both for comparison, smaller is the AA5's.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318559#318559
Message 2
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Dj:
Not True... Lycoming Cylinders are about $1100 each and you can get other
brands for $890 each.
And if you are building a Glastar, you should have the tool knowledge to
replace the cylinders yourself. Just get an A&P to LQQK over your shoulder.
Give him $400 for his knowledge.
Barry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
I'm going to guess that the oval one is from an AA-1 ...... but I
haven't looked at mine in a long time. It seems like it was oval. I
can't tell from the picture, but is the bottom of the oval tube
'round'?? Doesn't look like there's enough width for a round one
compared to the 'smaller' one. And 'smaller' is relative. One is
shorter, but wider .....
Linn
On 11/8/2010 8:13 AM, grumpyparts wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "grumpyparts"<i.r.m@btinternet.com>
>
> Always believed that the AG5B's de-misters were the same as the AA5's, but no.
> Have now found two AG5B's recently with badly deformed parts due to overheating
and need replacements. Have any of you come across this problem before, if
so what did you replace them with.
>
> Here's a picture of both for comparison, smaller is the AA5's.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318559#318559
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
> Always believed that the AG5B's de-misters were the same as the AA5's, but
> no.
> Have now found two AG5B's recently with badly deformed parts due to
> overheating and need replacements. Have any of you come across this
> problem before, if so what did you replace them with.
The oval defroster vent was used on all the AA-series planes (except maybe
the Yankee) and the round was used on the AG-5B. There is no heat
distortion. The oval duct has given everyone grief for many years when
trying to attach a round duct to the oval outlet port.
Cliff
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cylinder woes |
On 11/08/2010 08:15 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Not True... Lycoming Cylinders are about $1100 each and you can get
> other brands for $890 each.
Hi Barry,
I'd greatly appreciate it if you would share with me where I can get
O-235-C2C cylinders for $1100. The cheapest I have been able to find
them is $1472 at Air Power. I'm still hoping to find 3 used, rebuilt
cylinders for less than that, though.
I haven't found any other brands for this engine. I'm told that ECI
doesn't make them for this particular engine, and Superior doesn't seem
to be making cylinder assemblies at all right now as far as I can tell.
What other brands are there, and where can I find out about them? If I
can get brand new cylinder assemblies for $890 I'd be very tempted to do it.
Thanks!
>
> And if you are building a Glastar, you should have the tool knowledge to
> replace the cylinders yourself. Just get an A&P to LQQK over
> your shoulder. Give him $400 for his knowledge.
I could probably do it, but I'd rather my A&P do the engine work and
have me look over his shoulder so I can learn. I've gotten pretty good
at riveting and am okay at fiberglass work, but since I've never touched
the internals of an engine I'll defer to him since this is one area I
don't want to mess up... :-)
Thanks,
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
May be I didn't make myself very clear. There is nothing wrong with the oval demister/defroster,
it was purely shown for comparison to the round AG5B one which
is badly deformed along with the slider, see new picture.
Out of interest the oval one shown last time is in fact a New Old Stock item, never
used, think it needs to be put in the Grumman museum.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318588#318588
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
Hi Ian,
All of the early (American General) AG5B defroster ducts I've seen are deformed.
Not only that, the hole spacing is different from the AA5x series. The best
defroster ducts were made by Dave Nichols (I think that's who made them.) I
believe Garner has some of them or knows the manufacture. Commonality of parts
is what keeps the cost down. Changing the entire design (and making it out of
cheaper parts at that) was a waste of money.
Gary
________________________________
From: grumpyparts <i.r.m@btinternet.com>
Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 5:13:03 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B demisters
Always believed that the AG5B's de-misters were the same as the AA5's, but no.
Have now found two AG5B's recently with badly deformed parts due to overheating
and need replacements. Have any of you come across this problem before, if so
what did you replace them with.
Here's a picture of both for comparison, smaller is the AA5's.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318559#318559
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
John Sjaardema (sp?) makes Dave Nicholas' defroster vent, now. Give Excel Air
a
call.
Doug Ilg
Grumman Tiger N74818, College Park Airport (KCGS), Maryland
Challenger II LSS LW (N641LG reserved) - kit underway at Laurel Suburban (W18)
>
>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 1:10:26 PM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B demisters
>
>
>Hi Ian,
>
>
>All of the early (American General) AG5B defroster ducts I've seen are deformed.
> Not only that, the hole spacing is different from the AA5x series. The best
>defroster ducts were made by Dave Nichols (I think that's who made them.) I
>believe Garner has some of them or knows the manufacture. Commonality of parts
>is what keeps the cost down. Changing the entire design (and making it out of
>cheaper parts at that) was a waste of money.
>
>
>Gary
>
>
________________________________
From: grumpyparts <i.r.m@btinternet.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 5:13:03 AM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: AG5B demisters
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
Thanks guys. I sent the mechanics doing the work on the AG5B a selection of defrosters,
the new old stock, the Dave Nichols's and the John Sjaardema one, it
was when they compared it to the one fitted that it became apparent they did not
have the same hole spacing as Gary says.
I was just asking the question to see whether anyone had come up with a straight
replacement without having to make new attachment holes, at least the longitudinal
hole spacing is correct for one side.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318599#318599
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cylinder woes |
Barry, I don't know why you have such a hard-on for Lycoming cylinders, they are
much better cylinders. No ADs to start with. I've talked to Ken at Lycon about
the various cylinders. From his perspective, they are the best and they make
the most power. Building 500 engines a year, including racers and air show
planes, he should know. You can pay less for a cylinder, but that's what you'll
get: less.
Since the labor costs the same to remove and replace a $200 overhauled cylinder
as it does to replace an $1100 new cylinder, the only advantage is, you won't
have to replace the new cylinder in a hundred hours.
Oh, good, I feel a story coming on . . . .
A few years back, I had a customer with a new, to her, 1976 Tiger. Her primary
reason for picking this plane was that it had an overhauled engine. Yep, only
125 hours since complete overhaul. The compressions were in the low to mid 70s.
It leaked oil at the case parting line. And, in flight, it felt very weak.
Fast forward 2 years and 175 hours. Compressions were low 40s on 2 cylinders
and the other two were mid 60s. "It still feels like it's flying fine." she
would tell me. "The guys in Pali, (her vernacular for Palo Alto) told me I must
have stuck rings. They said I should soak the cylinders in Mouse Milk and then
(some other solvent I can't remember)."
So, for 2 weeks, I kept they cylinders full and pulled the engine through a full
four cycles everyday. Then refilled, repeated, then refilled. What the hell,
I
charged her an hour a day for 2 weeks. It was her choice. I just couldn't
convince her that the engine did not really get a real overhaul. She kept
insisting, "It only has 300 hours since major overhaul!"
After 2 weeks, there was no change in the compressions. I ran the engine and
high speed taxied it for an hour. Checked again. No change. (oh, by-the-way,
these were the instructions the guys in Palo Alto wanted me to follow. It was
her money.)
I pulled the cylinders to send them to LyCon. The block was cracked at the
alternator mounting boss. Over the last year, when she brought it in for an oil
change, I thought there was a lot of oil. (I had changed the #4 oil drain back
tube the oil change prior because it was corroded through and leaking a lot. I
thought that was the source of the oil).
When I called her and told her that her engine block was cracked she responded
with, "How can that be? It only has 300 hours since major overhaul." I got her
a deal on an overhauled engine directly from Lycoming for under $19,000. Her
response, "The guys in Pali said I can have the block welded for a couple of
hundred dollars." So, I put her plane back together and sent her on her way.
A year later she flew to Auburn for a fly-in. I asked about the engine. Turns
out, during the tear down to get at the crack, they found bent rods, a bad cam,
bad lifters, and the crank was scored. Oh, yea, all of the cylinders were so
badly cracked they couldn't be repaired. Putting the engine back together cost
her . . . . . drum roll . . . . $19,000. And 6 months.
When she called for an annual, I had to reply with, "I would love to work on
your plane but, I'm not the right mechanic for you. Have the guys in Pali work
on your plane."
Bottom line: You get what you pay for.
________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, November 8, 2010 5:15:27 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Cylinder woes
Dj:
Not True... Lycoming Cylinders are about $1100 each and you can get other
brands for $890 each.
And if you are building a Glastar, you should have the tool knowledge to
replace the cylinders yourself. Just get an A&P to LQQK over your shoulder.
Give him $400 for his knowledge.
Barry
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: AG5B demisters |
This particular AG5B has spent some time in Canada as well as putting up with the
good old UK cold and wet winters, come to think of it summers as well, which
means the cabin heat has been probably used a lot. Not being able to shut the
defrosters off has resulted in the windshield being badly crazed directly above
the outlets and needs replacing. This cost cutting by American General is
going to cost this customer dear.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=318603#318603
Message 12
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Are you still sitting on the fence about buying a Power Flow?
Buy it through me for $3350 plus shipping.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fuel vent line. 1979 Cheetah. |
I resealed a fuel tank vent line that has been leaking since 2001. It was
resealed in 2005 and 2006. Flexible hose replaced in 2007.
The sealant on the outside of the tank was some sort of gooey stuff that acted
a
lot like sticky silly putty. I didn't take a before pic on that one. Me bad.
The inside had been resealed at some point. The sealant application looked very
professional. Except for the fact that the vent line was detached, it looked
great.
Before and after pics attached.
Oh, yea, the outboard fuel tank access cover had the sealant that AD 89-18-08
should have replaced. It was leaking very badly.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Cylinder woes |
Hi Gary:
I don't know if I am being that unreasonable when it comes to Lycoming.
They are the Fathers of the industry and my thoughts just keep telling me
they should be much further on in development and quality then they are. It
always seems it is the lawyers that hold back the development.
Things like the Oil Pump Gears... How many Millions did that cost aviation.
Not them... ME the little guy had to foot that bill.
And remember how much ware there was in the aluminum gear? I still have
mine and NONE is the answer. Then you may recall there was the sinted gear
for the oil pump. Well, any engineer I know would NEVER even suggest such a
thing.
And lets not forget the rocker arm ... An INTAKE and an EXHAUST and don't
you mix them up... Oil will be squirting the wrong direction when it comes
to the EXHAUST and YES, I lost a cylinder because of that. NO! ! ! I WAS
NOT THE ONE THAT INSTALLED THEM INCORRECTLY. Paperwork indicated it was
Lycoming, that did the last work on the engine. Yes, I know the paperwork
could very easily be wrong.
I eliminated the mix up on rockers completely - I made ALL the rockers
EXHAUST rockers. I understand Lycoming did that also?
There are other AD's that luckily I escaped only after pulling the cowl off
to check part numbers and serial numbers; others did not escape so cheaply.
I would not say I have a hard-on from them. Quite the opposite. They make
me go limp.
I believe in Competition, I believe in keeping the work right here in the
USA. I also like to support the underdog and if you think of it. The
underdog has an advantage. They can learn from Lycoming. I really liked
the idea that Superior had and did with hard-coat anodizing the fin area of
the cylinders. No Paint to hold heat in. Better casting without flashing.
And I am still waiting for more oil to be delivered to the heads.
Gary, I respect your knowledge and all your experimentation. So it is NOT a
personal thing between you and I. AND from your experience I am learning.
It is just that Lycoming has not given me the Warm & Fuzzy feeling, only a
lighter wallet. I am NOT totally against Lycoming, maybe with your
teachings I may see things in a different light.
==================================
I feel you can learn many things from stories. I also enjoy your stories.
My first thought was WHO did the overhaul?
The people at Palo Alto or Lycoming?
My second thought was: She is fixating on the numbers and not the situation.
Everyone would like a quick - cheep cure to low compression.
And I have to ask... Sorry Gary... Why did the block crack?
I'm twisting the knife here and it is NOT fair. A cracked block is far from
normal and not something that can be blamed on Lycoming. And if the crank
was scored there must have been quite a bit of heat. Maybe before she
purchased the plane and as you said: " I just couldn't convince her that the
engine did not really get a real overhaul."
And I agree, you do get what you pay for. But you should not have to pay
too much.
When it comes to repairing a problem, I say it a little differently: "Pay
me now, or pay me later; the problem is not going to go away."
Smiles Gary,
Barry
On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barry, I don't know why you have such a hard-on for Lycoming cylinders,
> they are much better cylinders. No ADs to start with. I've talked to Ken
> at Lycon about the various cylinders. From his perspective, they are the
> best and they make the most power. Building 500 engines a year, including
> racers and air show planes, he should know. You can pay less for a
> cylinder, but that's what you'll get: less.
>
> Since the labor costs the same to remove and replace a $200 overhauled
> cylinder as it does to replace an $1100 new cylinder, the only advantage is,
> you won't have to replace the new cylinder in a hundred hours.
>
> Oh, good, I feel a story coming on . . . .
>
> A few years back, I had a customer with a new, to her, 1976 Tiger. Her
> primary reason for picking this plane was that it had an overhauled engine.
> Yep, only 125 hours since complete overhaul. The compressions were in the
> low to mid 70s. It leaked oil at the case parting line. And, in flight, it
> felt very weak.
>
> Fast forward 2 years and 175 hours. Compressions were low 40s on 2
> cylinders and the other two were mid 60s. "It still feels like it's flying
> fine." she would tell me. "The guys in Pali, (her vernacular for Palo Alto)
> told me I must have stuck rings. They said I should soak the cylinders in
> Mouse Milk and then (some other solvent I can't remember)."
>
> So, for 2 weeks, I kept they cylinders full and pulled the engine through a
> full four cycles everyday. Then refilled, repeated, then refilled. What
> the hell, I charged her an hour a day for 2 weeks. It was her choice. I
> just couldn't convince her that the engine did not really get a real
> overhaul. She kept insisting, "It only has 300 hours since major overhaul!"
>
> After 2 weeks, there was no change in the compressions. I ran the engine
> and high speed taxied it for an hour. Checked again. No change. (oh,
> by-the-way, these were the instructions the guys in Palo Alto wanted me to
> follow. It was her money.)
>
> I pulled the cylinders to send them to LyCon. The block was cracked at the
> alternator mounting boss. Over the last year, when she brought it in for an
> oil change, I thought there was a lot of oil. (I had changed the #4 oil
> drain back tube the oil change prior because it was corroded through and
> leaking a lot. I thought that was the source of the oil).
>
> When I called her and told her that her engine block was cracked she
> responded with, "How can that be? It only has 300 hours since major
> overhaul." I got her a deal on an overhauled engine directly from Lycoming
> for under $19,000. Her response, "The guys in Pali said I can have the
> block welded for a couple of hundred dollars." So, I put her plane back
> together and sent her on her way.
>
> A year later she flew to Auburn for a fly-in. I asked about the engine.
> Turns out, during the tear down to get at the crack, they found bent rods,
> a bad cam, bad lifters, and the crank was scored. Oh, yea, all of the
> cylinders were so badly cracked they couldn't be repaired. Putting the
> engine back together cost her . . . . . drum roll . . . . $19,000. And 6
> months.
>
> When she called for an annual, I had to reply with, "I would love to work
> on your plane but, I'm not the right mechanic for you. Have the guys in
> Pali work on your plane."
>
> Bottom line: You get what you pay for.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, November 8, 2010 5:15:27 AM
> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Cylinder woes
>
> Dj:
>
> Not
>
> *
>
>
--
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
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