Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:03 PM - Seat Track (Tom Quinn)
2. 02:11 PM - Re: Seat Track (Hosler, John)
3. 02:21 PM - Re: Seat Track (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
4. 02:46 PM - Re: Seat Track (Andy)
5. 02:52 PM - Re: Seat Track (Brian D. Smith)
6. 02:57 PM - Re: Seat Track (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
7. 02:58 PM - Re: Seat Track (Linn Walters)
8. 03:08 PM - Re: Seat Track (Andy)
9. 03:16 PM - Re: Seat Track (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
10. 03:48 PM - Re: Seat Track (Tom Quinn)
11. 03:54 PM - Re: Seat Track (Tom Quinn)
12. 03:56 PM - Re: Seat Track (Tom Quinn)
13. 04:12 PM - Re: Seat Track (Brian D. Smith)
14. 04:16 PM - Re: Seat Track (Gary Vogt)
15. 04:23 PM - Re: Seat Track (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
16. 04:30 PM - Re: Seat Track (Tom Quinn)
17. 04:35 PM - Re: Seat Track (Linn Walters)
18. 04:50 PM - Re: Seat Track (Gary Vogt)
19. 05:53 PM - Re: Seat Track (Kevin Lancaster)
Message 1
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Is there a better solution for the seat tracks in the Grummans? The pilot
side seat track in my Tiger is terrible. One side locks and the other
doesn't sometimes requiring me to monkey with it to get both sides to lock.
Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
Message 2
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I disassembled the entire seat locking mechanism, re-lubricated and
reassembled (after 30 year of operation). Works like new now.
John
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Quinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:00 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Is there a better solution for the seat tracks in the Grummans? The
pilot side seat track in my Tiger is terrible. One side locks and the
other doesn't sometimes requiring me to monkey with it to get both sides
to lock. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
Message 3
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Off the record....
The tracks all stink. I machined a special part for myself. Works great but
it's not something we could sell. If the group were bigger or could afford
the part (they can't) I'd go into production. It will cost us about $125,000
to get a PMA and then the cost of manufacture. That means we would need to
sell 200 sets a $700/set to break even. I really don't see that happening
Message 4
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Re: seat track
If the part is not available, it is my impression that the owner can
make the part for his airplane, out of similar material and of similar
design. I also believe that if the owner draws a picture of the part
and provided a description, he does not have to actually make the
part....
That being the case, you could provide a sketch/picture of what you have
done, the owner could "improve on it" for his specific airframe and you
could fabricate it to his specs for $100/200 or ? and all parties are
served.
I may have over simplified the process but I would be comfortable with
that scenario for my airplane,
Andy Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From: ArjayS@AOL.COM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Off the record....
The tracks all stink. I machined a special part for myself. Works
great but it's not something we could sell. If the group were bigger or
could afford the part (they can't) I'd go into production. It will cost
us about $125,000 to get a PMA and then the cost of manufacture. That
means we would need to sell 200 sets a $700/set to break even. I really
don't see that happening
Message 5
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>The pilot side seat track in my Tiger is
>terrible. One side locks and the other
>doesnt sometimes requiring me to monkey
>with it to get both sides to lock. Any ideas?
We have the same problem. I can't reliably get it to lock -- I just have to wait
for it to do it on its own.
Can you give more details on where and what you "monkey" to get it to lock?
Message 6
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Hi Andy
First, it's not in any way similar. I designed a double latch system, so
it's impossible to slip. The adjustor bar pulls up and then out and retrac
ts
in the same sequence. Second, the part is machined out os aluminum stock.
Different materials and different process. Third, we are an engineering
company. If I provided any part of the design even for free, we're liable
for it
and without any compensation to pay the lawyers.
Other than that stuff....No problem
> Re:- seat track
> -
> If the part is not available, it is my impression that the owner can ma
ke
> the part for his airplane, out of similar material and of similar design
.-
> I also believe-that if the owner draws a picture of the part and provi
ded
> a description, he does not have to actually make the part....
> -
> That being the case, you could provide a sketch/picture of what you hav
e
> done, the owner could "improve on it"-for his specific airframe and yo
u
> could fabricate it to his specs for $100/200 or ? and all parties are se
rved.
> -
> I may have over simplified the process but I would be comfortable with
> that scenario for my airplane,
> -
> Andy Thomas
>
>
Message 7
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Of course the seat track fairy could visit ....... after all, it's
Christmas!!! ;-)
Linn
On 12/1/2010 5:44 PM, Andy wrote:
> Re: seat track
> If the part is not available, it is my impression that the owner can
> make the part for his airplane, out of similar material and of similar
> design. I also believe that if the owner draws a picture of the part
> and provided a description, he does not have to actually make the part....
> That being the case, you could provide a sketch/picture of what you
> have done, the owner could "improve on it" for his specific airframe
> and you could fabricate it to his specs for $100/200 or ? and all
> parties are served.
> I may have over simplified the process but I would be comfortable with
> that scenario for my airplane,
> Andy Thomas
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* ArjayS@AOL.COM <mailto:ArjayS@AOL.COM>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:15 PM
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
>
> Off the record....
> The tracks all stink. I machined a special part for myself. Works
> great but it's not something we could sell. If the group were
> bigger or could afford the part (they can't) I'd go into
> production. It will cost us about $125,000 to get a PMA and then
> the cost of manufacture. That means we would need to sell 200 sets
> a $700/set to break even. I really don't see that happening
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
> *
Message 8
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I understand....but if someone wanted to be of service, this is a
method. As far as liability, I think the owner is the designer....I am
not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once, so I do
understand !!
Cheers....
----- Original Message -----
From: ArjayS@AOL.COM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Hi Andy
First, it's not in any way similar. I designed a double latch system,
so it's impossible to slip. The adjustor bar pulls up and then out and
retracts in the same sequence. Second, the part is machined out os
aluminum stock. Different materials and different process. Third, we are
an engineering company. If I provided any part of the design even for
free, we're liable for it and without any compensation to pay the
lawyers.
Other than that stuff....No problem
Re: seat track
If the part is not available, it is my impression that the owner can
make the part for his airplane, out of similar material and of similar
design. I also believe that if the owner draws a picture of the part
and provided a description, he does not have to actually make the
part....
That being the case, you could provide a sketch/picture of what you
have done, the owner could "improve on it" for his specific airframe and
you could fabricate it to his specs for $100/200 or ? and all parties
are served.
I may have over simplified the process but I would be comfortable
with that scenario for my airplane,
Andy Thomas
Message 9
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I wish that were true....it's not.
> As far as liability, I think the owner is the designer
>
Message 10
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>The pilot side seat track in my Tiger is terrible. One side locks and
>the other doesn=99t sometimes requiring me to monkey with it to
get both
>sides to lock. Any ideas?
We have the same problem. I can't reliably get it to lock -- I just
have to wait for it to do it on its own.
Can you give more details on where and what you "monkey" to get it to
lock?
I just keep moving it back and forth until it locks on its own.
I=99m afraid at some point it will give way and I=99ll slide
back probably during the landing flair
Tom Quinn
249RR
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
D. Smith
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
<bdsmith@earthlink.net>
>The pilot side seat track in my Tiger is
>terrible. One side locks and the other
>doesn=99t sometimes requiring me to monkey
>with it to get both sides to lock. Any ideas?
We have the same problem. I can't reliably get it to lock -- I just
have to wait for it to do it on its own.
Can you give more details on where and what you "monkey" to get it to
lock?
Message 11
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If you want to really mess up a good deal get lawyers involved, that's too
bad. I understand where you're coming from. If it was one of those "take a
piece of 3 inch by 6 inch aluminum stock and drill one hole right in the
middle..." that would be one thing but your design sounds a lot more complex
and a potential feeding ground for ambulance chasers when all your trying to
do is help a fellow Grumman Bubba out. Now if someone could only develop an
effective and efficient air conditioner for the Grumman I probably would
never get rid of it!
Tom Quinn
249RR
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
ArjayS@AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Hi Andy
First, it's not in any way similar. I designed a double latch system, so
it's impossible to slip. The adjustor bar pulls up and then out and retracts
in the same sequence. Second, the part is machined out os aluminum stock.
Different materials and different process. Third, we are an engineering
company. If I provided any part of the design even for free, we're liable
for it and without any compensation to pay the lawyers.
Other than that stuff....No problem
Re: seat track
If the part is not available, it is my impression that the owner can make
the part for his airplane, out of similar material and of similar design. I
also believe that if the owner draws a picture of the part and provided a
description, he does not have to actually make the part....
That being the case, you could provide a sketch/picture of what you have
done, the owner could "improve on it" for his specific airframe and you
could fabricate it to his specs for $100/200 or ? and all parties are
served.
I may have over simplified the process but I would be comfortable with that
scenario for my airplane,
Andy Thomas
Message 12
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John,
Good point! I almost deep sixed the seat belts until I took 10
minutes to clean and lube the latches. Now they work great.
Tom Quinn
249RR
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hosler,
John
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
I disassembled the entire seat locking mechanism, re-lubricated and
reassembled (after 30 year of operation). Works like new now.
John
_____
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Quinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:00 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Is there a better solution for the seat tracks in the Grummans? The pilot
side seat track in my Tiger is terrible. One side locks and the other
doesn't sometimes requiring me to monkey with it to get both sides to lock.
Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
Message 13
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>Im afraid at some point it will give way
>and Ill slide back probably during the
>landing flair.
It's much more likely at take off, with the high deck angle of climb out. Ask
me how I know....
When it happens, it happens quickly. I'm over 6 feet tall, and I fly with the
seat only one click forward from fully back. I know about seat rail failures,
and I know what to do when it happens.
Still, when the rail gave way, and I scooted back the distance of only one click,
I wasn't able to release the yoke fast enough to keep the stall horn from chirping.
I was, by the way, about 500 AGL. Scary stuff.
Message 14
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Hi Tom,=0A=0AThere are a few seats that are made wrong. The holes, the mec
hanism, who knows. =0A There are just some that don't work right. On the P
roject X plane, the pilots =0Aseat just didn't work right. I took it apart
and determined I could relocate =0Abot of the pivot holes by crowding out
the holes in the right direction and then =0Ausing a bushing (a home made s
tainless steel bushing) on the bolts to take up =0Athe slop. I also had to
bend, ever so slightly, the cross-shaft/link to make it =0Ashorter. As a
side note, having a cross-shaft/link that is treaded so that it =0Acan be l
engthened or shortened would be great. =0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0AFrom: Tom Quinn <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com>=0ATo: teamgrum
man-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, December 1, 2010 2:00:05 PM=0ASubject:
TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track=0A=0A =0AIs there a better solution for the se
at tracks in the Grummans? The pilot side =0Aseat track in my Tiger is terr
ible. One side locks and the other doesn=99t =0Asometimes requiring m
e to monkey with it to get both sides to lock. Any ideas?=0A =0A =0ATom Qui
================ =0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 15
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No kidding. Although I have a bunch of birds I still fly my Grummans the
most. Just love flying with the canopy open
> Now if someone could only develop an effective and efficient air
> conditioner for the Grumman I probably would never get rid of it!
>
Message 16
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Gary, interesting. If some of the seat tracks were made wrong do you
think if I was to purchase one through Fletch-air it would fix the
problem? I=99m thinking about taking the suggestion John Hosler
had of taking apart, cleaning and lubing to see if that fixes the
problem. If not maybe buying new seat tracks.
Tom Quinn
249RR
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Hi Tom,
There are a few seats that are made wrong. The holes, the mechanism,
who knows. There are just some that don't work right. On the Project X
plane, the pilots seat just didn't work right. I took it apart and
determined I could relocate bot of the pivot holes by crowding out the
holes in the right direction and then using a bushing (a home made
stainless steel bushing) on the bolts to take up the slop. I also had
to bend, ever so slightly, the cross-shaft/link to make it shorter. As
a side note, having a cross-shaft/link that is treaded so that it can be
lengthened or shortened would be great.
Gary
_____
From: Tom Quinn <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com>
Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 2:00:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Is there a better solution for the seat tracks in the Grummans? The
pilot side seat track in my Tiger is terrible. One side locks and the
other doesn=99t sometimes requiring me to monkey with it to get
both sides to lock. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
= * AeroElectric www.home- <http://www.homebuilthelp.com> >
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Message 17
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On 12/1/2010 6:51 PM, Tom Quinn wrote:
>
> If you want to really mess up a good deal get lawyers involved, that's
> too bad. I understand where you're coming from. If it was one of those
> "take a piece of 3 inch by 6 inch aluminum stock and drill one hole
> right in the middle....." that would be one thing but your design
> sounds a lot more complex and a potential feeding ground for ambulance
> chasers when all your trying to do is help a fellow Grumman Bubba out.
> Now if someone could only develop an effective and efficient air
> conditioner for the Grumman I probably would never get rid of it!
>
Here in FL, it's called 'open the canopy'!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist!!!
Linn
>
> Tom Quinn
>
> 249RR
>
> *From:*owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *ArjayS@AOL.COM
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 01, 2010 5:55 PM
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
>
> Hi Andy
> First, it's not in any way similar. I designed a double latch system,
> so it's impossible to slip. The adjustor bar pulls up and then out and
> retracts in the same sequence. Second, the part is machined out os
> aluminum stock. Different materials and different process. Third, we
> are an engineering company. If I provided any part of the design even
> for free, we're liable for it and without any compensation to pay the
> lawyers.
> Other than that stuff....No problem
>
>
> Re: seat track
>
> If the part is not available, it is my impression that the owner can
> make the part for his airplane, out of similar material and of similar
> design. I also believe that if the owner draws a picture of the part
> and provided a description, he does not have to actually make the part....
>
> That being the case, you could provide a sketch/picture of what you
> have done, the owner could "improve on it" for his specific airframe
> and you could fabricate it to his specs for $100/200 or ? and all
> parties are served.
>
> I may have over simplified the process but I would be comfortable with
> that scenario for my airplane,
>
> Andy Thomas
>
>
> * *
> * *
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *www.aeroelectric.com*
> *www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>*
> *www.homebuilthelp.com*
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> **
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List*
> **
> **
> **
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
> **
> *
>
> *
Message 18
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The problem is not the seat tracks, per se. The problem is the lock mechan
ism =0Adoesn't line up correctly. The only trouble I've had with the track
s themselves =0Ais when they are really dirty and gummy and don't slide wel
l. I use LPS-1 and =0AWD-40 to flush out the residue. Carb cleaner works
too but it's really toxic. =0A Lube with either LPS-2 or WD-40 when you're
done cleaning it. They should =0Aslide pretty well. =0A=0A=0A=0A_________
_______________________=0AFrom: Tom Quinn <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com>=0ATo: team
grumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, December 1, 2010 4:27:36 PM=0ASubje
ct: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track=0A=0A =0AGary, interesting. If some of
the seat tracks were made wrong do you think if I =0Awas to purchase one t
hrough Fletch-air it would fix the problem? I=99m thinking =0Aabout t
aking the suggestion John Hosler had of taking apart, cleaning and lubing
=0Ato see if that fixes the problem. If not maybe buying new seat tracks.
=0A =0A =0ATom Quinn=0A249RR=0A =0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matro
nics.com =0A[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Gary Vogt=0ASent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 7:14 PM=0ATo: teamgrumman
-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track=0A =0AHi To
m,=0A =0AThere are a few seats that are made wrong. The holes, the mechani
sm, who knows. =0A There are just some that don't work right. On the Proje
ct X plane, the pilots =0Aseat just didn't work right. I took it apart and
determined I could relocate =0Abot of the pivot holes by crowding out the
holes in the right direction and then =0Ausing a bushing (a home made stain
less steel bushing) on the bolts to take up =0Athe slop. I also had to ben
d, ever so slightly, the cross-shaft/link to make it =0Ashorter. As a side
note, having a cross-shaft/link that is treaded so that it =0Acan be lengt
hened or shortened would be great. =0A =0AGary=0A =0A=0A__________________
______________=0A =0AFrom:Tom Quinn <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com>=0ATo: teamgrumma
n-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, December 1, 2010 2:00:05 PM=0ASubject: Te
amGrumman-List: Seat Track=0AIs there a better solution for the seat tracks
in the Grummans? The pilot side =0Aseat track in my Tiger is terrible. One
side locks and the other doesn=99t =0Asometimes requiring me to monk
ey with it to get both sides to lock. Any ideas?=0A =0A =0ATom Quinn=0A249R
R =0A =0A= * AeroElectric www.home-> =0A=0A=0A =0A www.aeroelectric.c
====== =0A=0A=0A=0A
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In some cases the tracks may be the problem - the Traveler, I have been
told, had tracks that were not heat treated and over nearly 40 years may
stretch, fail to line up and allow the balls fall out of the keeper. We
have rebuilt quite a few of these with new tracks and solved the
problem. I know all the AG's had the heat treated tracks but I'm not
sure about the switchover point in Savannah. The alignment issue can
occur for several reasons, one being a slightly bent spar bracket that
allows the seat to sit slightly crooked in it's mount. I guess they get
bent while the seat is out of the plane for servicing. Another issue we
have seen it an "out of square" seat pan that was apparently dropped
when out of the plane with enough force to warp it - maybe they ran over
it with their tug. We have also found loose clevis bolts that allow the
seat to twist on the bracket - this will also allow the tracks to be
damaged as will missing spacers on the rear attach bolts. Our planes,
after 30 plus years of great and not-so-great annuals with sometimes
less-than-Grumman savvy mechanics display many non-standard and
"creative" repairs - many that look quite scary. I would encourage you
to make sure your seats are functioning as they should and make sure all
hardware is properly installed and, as obvious as this sounds, are the
right parts. If someone needs specific help, drop me a note and we'll
figure it out.
Kevin Lancaster
True Flight Aerospace
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
The problem is not the seat tracks, per se. The problem is the lock
mechanism doesn't line up correctly. The only trouble I've had with the
tracks themselves is when they are really dirty and gummy and don't
slide well. I use LPS-1 and WD-40 to flush out the residue. Carb
cleaner works too but it's really toxic. Lube with either LPS-2 or
WD-40 when you're done cleaning it. They should slide pretty well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Tom Quinn <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 4:27:36 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Gary, interesting. If some of the seat tracks were made wrong do you
think if I was to purchase one through Fletch-air it would fix the
problem? I=99m thinking about taking the suggestion John Hosler
had of taking apart, cleaning and lubing to see if that fixes the
problem. If not maybe buying new seat tracks.
Tom Quinn
249RR
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 7:14 PM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Hi Tom,
There are a few seats that are made wrong. The holes, the mechanism,
who knows. There are just some that don't work right. On the Project X
plane, the pilots seat just didn't work right. I took it apart and
determined I could relocate bot of the pivot holes by crowding out the
holes in the right direction and then using a bushing (a home made
stainless steel bushing) on the bolts to take up the slop. I also had
to bend, ever so slightly, the cross-shaft/link to make it shorter. As
a side note, having a cross-shaft/link that is treaded so that it can be
lengthened or shortened would be great.
Gary
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Tom Quinn <quinn_tom@tqiinc.com>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 2:00:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Seat Track
Is there a better solution for the seat tracks in the Grummans? The
pilot side seat track in my Tiger is terrible. One side locks and the
other doesn=99t sometimes requiring me to monkey with it to get
both sides to lock. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
= * AeroElectric www.home->
www.aeroelectric.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
_/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrum
man======
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