---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/24/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:35 AM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Don Curry) 2. 12:32 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (FLYaDIVE) 3. 12:38 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (flyv35b) 4. 12:44 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Linn Walters) 5. 12:59 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Bob Hodo) 6. 01:24 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Don Curry) 7. 01:24 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (flyv35b) 8. 01:25 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Don Curry) 9. 01:54 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (allenc3@bellsouth.net) 10. 02:38 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Bob Hodo) 11. 03:14 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Bob Hodo) 12. 05:08 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Jim Starkey) 13. 06:01 PM - Re: FlightPrep patent (Linn Walters) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:51 AM PST US From: "Don Curry" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Brian, Don't take this personally; I don't know you and I'm sure you are a great guy. But there seems to be a sudden glut of experts on your side who know an awful lot about the specific, inner workings of the FlightPrep patent and patent law in general. I don't know who is getting you guys lathered up, but my spider senses are on full alert. I think you're being played. According to something I read, the US Patent Office examined FlightPrep's patent application for eight years before issuing the patent. Eight years under a government bureaucrat's microscope=21 And then suddenly, within just a couple of weeks of RunwayFinder willingly pulling itself off the web, I read account after account from you experts who absolutely know that FlightPrep didn't deserve its patent -- and you back up your position by swearing and calling names which, of course, is an impressive and persuasive tactic for some=21 Of course, you only have to prove to yourselves that you know more than the US Patent Office and all the patent attorneys who have undoubtedly looked at this over the months - oh, and more than RunwayFinder, which took its site down for a reason - for once you have yourselves convinced, you can enjoy the fun of espousing your opinion in your characteristically delicate manner. Personally, I don't know how FlightPrep did it=21 In fact, I read in amazement some of Gary Vogt's accounts of his dealings with the FAA while he was getting his STC for his cowl. I'm sure I would have had an aneurism after about the second time the FAA changed some parameter it wanted to check=21 The point is, the government's professional deny-boys examined FlightPrep's application for what seems like an excessive amount of time and ultimately approved it. So should FlightPrep be commended for enduring the pain and bringing its product to market or should it be bashed for being successful? You have vociferously bought into the emotion that it should be bashed and boycotted. I think I'll cling to the =22innocent until proven guilty=22 concept for a while longer. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Brian Hausknecht Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:08 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Bullshit. They need to be boycotted. FlightPrep is a patent troll, taking advantage of the incompetence of the Patent Office to get a patent for the long-existing and widely used practice of web-based flight planning. The failures of the patent office are becoming legendary, if you have been following technology news. Patenting jestures and the act of performing an internet search? Morons=21 And as trolls, FlightPrep is incurring appropriate wrath for shaking down their competitors. Let them know you will not tolerate their unethical performance. Boycott them. I only wish there was a way to clean house at the patent office and get competent people there who will throw out these frivilous applications from Apple, Google, and FlightTroll. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Don Curry wrote: Tom, I'm not trying to assume the role of apologist or defender for FlightPrep, nor as antagonist to FlightPrep's detractors. However, as a proud member of the aviation community for many years, I have enjoyed the fact-based perspective this community usually displays. It must have something to do with working with gravity. So I am surprised to see your fervor backed up only by a =22may=22 and an =22if:=22 =22FlightPrep may have overextended their =5Bsic=5D claim. . .,=22 and =22If they overextended their =5Bsic=5D claim. . .=22 Equally surprising is your acknowledgment that the courts need to sort this out, meaning, it seems, that you understand that we don't currently know the whole truth and, in the end, the court's finding may be in favor of FlightPrep. But until all the facts are weighed and the scales of justice are balanced, you are determined to light the torches and incite the villagers to help you assassinate the suspect. Sounds kind of like a kangaroo court - you know, =22give the suspect a fair trial then hang the guilty bastard=21=22 Of course you can do what you want with your money, your time, and your speech, but I would encourage you to spend a little time in your introspective place and see if you might prefer an approach that lets the contestants run the race before declaring a winner. Oh, and on that free speech thing, it's not free if it is used to promote an injustice and ends up costing you your honor. Just sayin. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent The problem is that Flightprep may have over extended their claim that other companies have infringed upon their patent and have used their attorneys to scare small guys, without money, to close down. The bigger corporations that have deeper pockets basically told Flightprep to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If they have overextended their claim on their patent then it is them who is stealing from others. Until the courts sort this out I am exercising my first amendment right of speaking out against Flightprep for using these heavy handed tactics against people who can't defend themselves and am encouraging my friends to join me in boycotting them as well. Looks like RunwayFinder has changed his mind in mounting a defense against Flightprep http://blog.runwayfinder.com/. I will, and I encourage everyone else, to use what money they would have bought Flightprep products with, to donate to Dave Parson's legal defense fund once it is up and running. Tom Quinn 249RR From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Don Curry Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don't know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn't the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone's private property it may be one of ours. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Jim Starkey Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 2:22 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent I'm afraid that putting adjectives in all caps doesn't necessarily make them true. The FlightPrep patent was filed in 2001, which, in software terms, is centuries back. The basis of the patent is using a client browser in conjunction with a server to develop a graphical flight plan. The systems cited as pre-existing art required all charts, etc., be resident on the client computer. A problem with the patent system is that even if neither A nor B is patentable, A + B is. Another problem is that although something obvious to practitioners of an art, the courts and the patent office recognize that almost everything is obvious after the fact. FlightPrep is indeed being pretty heavy handed and more that tad greedy. But they're also taking on some very big guns with very large legal budgets like Jeppesen and AOPA. Unless FlightPrep has backers with very deep pockets, they'll probably run out of money before Jeppesen and AOPA run out of appeals. Software is automatically copyrighted and may or may not be patented. There was a time that he USPTO considered software to algorithms, which are not patentable. The Supreme Court found otherwise. That said, I think a boycott of FlightPrep is not unreasonable. In their case, A + B was blatantly obvious, they added nothing to the state of the art, are suppressing useful services, and deserve to be put out of business by Foreflight on the iPad. On 12/23/2010 1:16 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Guys: I'm going to take a WAG here. If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their homework. More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class action suit? Barry = On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v wrote: FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep-Pat ent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_Plan ner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down. They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net . They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission. Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones: http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPrepFl ightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep. Thank you, -Boris P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings. ==22_blank=22>www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com =22 target==22_blank=22>www.buildersbooks.com et==22_blank=22>www.homebuilthelp.com ==22_blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. List=22 target==22_blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List http://forums.matronics.com -- Jim Starkey Founder, NimbusDB, Inc. 978 526-1376 www.aeroelectric.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Try IM ToolPack Send your photos by email in seconds... Try FREE IM ToolPack at www.imtoolpack.com Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. www.aeroelectric.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/c -Matt Dralle, List - The TeamGrumman-List Email List utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List _====================== http://forums.matronics.com ==== www.aeroelectric.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ 3D Earth Screensaver Preview Free 3D Earth Screensaver Watch the Earth right on your desktop=21 Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth =22_blank=22>www.aeroelectric.com =2Ecom/=22 target==22_blank=22>www.buildersbooks.com ==22_blank=22>www.homebuilthelp.com _blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/contribution st=22 target==22_blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ttp://forums.matronics.com ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop=21 Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent From: FLYaDIVE With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up the ACTUAL PATTEN? I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT been able to find anything on FlightPrep. Is it registered under any other company name or person? Who found what ... "Eight years" in investigation via the patten office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash! Maybe it sat on some bureaucratic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the last 1/4 day. BUT! Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this oral dedication. I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE. My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people are NOT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few years. And how bright can Einstein be; he killed his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. Hell, maybe GOD did play dice! "The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS" Barry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:05 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Don, is there something wrong with your email program, etc. I have gotten about 25 of the same emails from your this AM Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Curry To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 8:29 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Brian, Don't take this personally; I don't know you and I'm sure you are a great guy. But there seems to be a sudden glut of experts on your side who know an awful lot about the specific, inner workings of the FlightPrep patent and patent law in general. I don't know who is getting you guys lathered up, but my spider senses are on full alert. I think you're being played. According to something I read, the US Patent Office examined FlightPrep's patent application for eight years before issuing the patent. Eight years under a government bureaucrat's microscope! And then suddenly, within just a couple of weeks of RunwayFinder willingly pulling itself off the web, I read account after account from you experts who absolutely know that FlightPrep didn't deserve its patent -- and you back up your position by swearing and calling names which, of course, is an impressive and persuasive tactic for some! Of course, you only have to prove to yourselves that you know more than the US Patent Office and all the patent attorneys who have undoubtedly looked at this over the months - oh, and more than RunwayFinder, which took its site down for a reason - for once you have yourselves convinced, you can enjoy the fun of espousing your opinion in your characteristically delicate manner. Personally, I don't know how FlightPrep did it! In fact, I read in amazement some of Gary Vogt's accounts of his dealings with the FAA while he was getting his STC for his cowl. I'm sure I would have had an aneurism after about the second time the FAA changed some parameter it wanted to check! The point is, the government's professional deny-boys examined FlightPrep's application for what seems like an excessive amount of time and ultimately approved it. So should FlightPrep be commended for enduring the pain and bringing its product to market or should it be bashed for being successful? You have vociferously bought into the emotion that it should be bashed and boycotted. I think I'll cling to the "innocent until proven guilty" concept for a while longer. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Hausknecht Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:08 AM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Bullshit. They need to be boycotted. FlightPrep is a patent troll, taking advantage of the incompetence of the Patent Office to get a patent for the long-existing and widely used practice of web-based flight planning. The failures of the patent office are becoming legendary, if you have been following technology news. Patenting jestures and the act of performing an internet search? Morons! And as trolls, FlightPrep is incurring appropriate wrath for shaking down their competitors. Let them know you will not tolerate their unethical performance. Boycott them. I only wish there was a way to clean house at the patent office and get competent people there who will throw out these frivilous applications from Apple, Google, and FlightTroll. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Don Curry wrote: Tom, I'm not trying to assume the role of apologist or defender for FlightPrep, nor as antagonist to FlightPrep's detractors. However, as a proud member of the aviation community for many years, I have enjoyed the fact-based perspective this community usually displays. It must have something to do with working with gravity. So I am surprised to see your fervor backed up only by a "may" and an "if:" "FlightPrep may have overextended their [sic] claim. . .," and "If they overextended their [sic] claim. . ." Equally surprising is your acknowledgment that the courts need to sort this out, meaning, it seems, that you understand that we don't currently know the whole truth and, in the end, the court's finding may be in favor of FlightPrep. But until all the facts are weighed and the scales of justice are balanced, you are determined to light the torches and incite the villagers to help you assassinate the suspect. Sounds kind of like a kangaroo court - you know, "give the suspect a fair trial then hang the guilty bastard!" Of course you can do what you want with your money, your time, and your speech, but I would encourage you to spend a little time in your introspective place and see if you might prefer an approach that lets the contestants run the race before declaring a winner. Oh, and on that free speech thing, it's not free if it is used to promote an injustice and ends up costing you your honor. Just sayin. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:20 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent The problem is that Flightprep may have over extended their claim that other companies have infringed upon their patent and have used their attorneys to scare small guys, without money, to close down. The bigger corporations that have deeper pockets basically told Flightprep to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If they have overextended their claim on their patent then it is them who is stealing from others. Until the courts sort this out I am exercising my first amendment right of speaking out against Flightprep for using these heavy handed tactics against people who can't defend themselves and am encouraging my friends to join me in boycotting them as well. Looks like RunwayFinder has changed his mind in mounting a defense against Flightprep http://blog.runwayfinder.com/. I will, and I encourage everyone else, to use what money they would have bought Flightprep products with, to donate to Dave Parson's legal defense fund once it is up and running. Tom Quinn 249RR From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Curry Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:29 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don't know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn't the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone's private property it may be one of ours. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Starkey Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 2:22 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent I'm afraid that putting adjectives in all caps doesn't necessarily make them true. The FlightPrep patent was filed in 2001, which, in software terms, is centuries back. The basis of the patent is using a client browser in conjunction with a server to develop a graphical flight plan. The systems cited as pre-existing art required all charts, etc., be resident on the client computer. A problem with the patent system is that even if neither A nor B is patentable, A + B is. Another problem is that although something obvious to practitioners of an art, the courts and the patent office recognize that almost everything is obvious after the fact. FlightPrep is indeed being pretty heavy handed and more that tad greedy. But they're also taking on some very big guns with very large legal budgets like Jeppesen and AOPA. Unless FlightPrep has backers with very deep pockets, they'll probably run out of money before Jeppesen and AOPA run out of appeals. Software is automatically copyrighted and may or may not be patented. There was a time that he USPTO considered software to algorithms, which are not patentable. The Supreme Court found otherwise. That said, I think a boycott of FlightPrep is not unreasonable. In their case, A + B was blatantly obvious, they added nothing to the state of the art, are suppressing useful services, and deserve to be put out of business by Foreflight on the iPad. On 12/23/2010 1:16 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Guys: I'm going to take a WAG here. If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their homework. More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class action suit? Barry = On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v wrote: FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep- Patent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_P lanner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down. They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net. They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission. Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones: http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPre pFlightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep. Thank you, -Boris P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings. ========== ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. ========== List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== -- Jim StarkeyFounder, NimbusDB, Inc.978 526-1376 www.aeroelectric.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contrib ution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Send your photos by email in seconds... 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Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:52 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent This is what I've heard ..... so don't count them as facts. First, they're patents. ;-) Second, it was said that the original patent application was rejected, and that new wording was presented and passed. No, I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and think that a boycott is a good way to display displeasure ..... in this instance or any other. Linn Merry Christmas everybody!!! On 12/24/2010 3:28 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up > the ACTUAL PATTEN? > > I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT > been able to find anything on FlightPrep. > > Is it registered under any other company name or person? > > Who found what ... "Eight years" in investigation via the patten > office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash! Maybe it sat on > some bureaucratic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the > last 1/4 day. > > BUT! Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this > oral dedication. > > I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE. > > My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people > are NOT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few > years. And how bright can Einstein be; he killed > his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. > Hell, maybe GOD did play dice! > > "The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS" > > Barry > > * > > * ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:54 PM PST US From: Bob Hodo Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent One of my favorite flight prep sources was Navmonster.com- Go look what you see there now. I am not clear on what it is that flightprep claims to be their invention. - Who holds the patent for internet forums?- For chat rooms? For search engines?- For road maps?- For weather depiction? For an internet based dictionary? Maybe flightprep should be worried that Al Gore will send them a notice tha t they need to buy a license from him.- He invented the internet, right? Bob Hodo GADsden, AL =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:45 PM PST US From: "Don Curry" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Enjoy the read and let us know what you find. Oh, I think the 8-year period runs from the first application in 2001 =5Bnext to the =22( 62)=22 in the first column=5D to the issuance in 2009. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 3:28 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up the ACTUAL PATTEN? I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT been able to find anything on FlightPrep. Is it registered under any other company name or person? Who found what ... =22Eight years=22 in investigation via the patten office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash=21 Maybe it sat on some bureaucratic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the last 1/4 day. BUT=21 Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this oral dedication. I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE. My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people are NOT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few years. And how bright can Einstein be; he killed his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. Hell, maybe GOD did play dice=21 =22The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS=22 Barry ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop=21 Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:47 PM PST US From: "flyv35b" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Is anyone else getting numerous copies of this same email? ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Curry To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 8:29 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Brian, Don't take this personally; I don't know you and I'm sure you are a great guy. But there seems to be a sudden glut of experts on your side who know an awful lot about the specific, inner workings of the FlightPrep patent and patent law in general. I don't know who is getting you guys lathered up, but my spider senses are on full alert. I think you're being played. According to something I read, the US Patent Office examined FlightPrep's patent application for eight years before issuing the patent. Eight years under a government bureaucrat's microscope! And then suddenly, within just a couple of weeks of RunwayFinder willingly pulling itself off the web, I read account after account from you experts who absolutely know that FlightPrep didn't deserve its patent -- and you back up your position by swearing and calling names which, of course, is an impressive and persuasive tactic for some! Of course, you only have to prove to yourselves that you know more than the US Patent Office and all the patent attorneys who have undoubtedly looked at this over the months - oh, and more than RunwayFinder, which took its site down for a reason - for once you have yourselves convinced, you can enjoy the fun of espousing your opinion in your characteristically delicate manner. Personally, I don't know how FlightPrep did it! In fact, I read in amazement some of Gary Vogt's accounts of his dealings with the FAA while he was getting his STC for his cowl. I'm sure I would have had an aneurism after about the second time the FAA changed some parameter it wanted to check! The point is, the government's professional deny-boys examined FlightPrep's application for what seems like an excessive amount of time and ultimately approved it. So should FlightPrep be commended for enduring the pain and bringing its product to market or should it be bashed for being successful? You have vociferously bought into the emotion that it should be bashed and boycotted. I think I'll cling to the "innocent until proven guilty" concept for a while longer. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Hausknecht Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:08 AM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Bullshit. They need to be boycotted. FlightPrep is a patent troll, taking advantage of the incompetence of the Patent Office to get a patent for the long-existing and widely used practice of web-based flight planning. The failures of the patent office are becoming legendary, if you have been following technology news. Patenting jestures and the act of performing an internet search? Morons! And as trolls, FlightPrep is incurring appropriate wrath for shaking down their competitors. Let them know you will not tolerate their unethical performance. Boycott them. I only wish there was a way to clean house at the patent office and get competent people there who will throw out these frivilous applications from Apple, Google, and FlightTroll. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Don Curry wrote: Tom, I'm not trying to assume the role of apologist or defender for FlightPrep, nor as antagonist to FlightPrep's detractors. However, as a proud member of the aviation community for many years, I have enjoyed the fact-based perspective this community usually displays. It must have something to do with working with gravity. So I am surprised to see your fervor backed up only by a "may" and an "if:" "FlightPrep may have overextended their [sic] claim. . .," and "If they overextended their [sic] claim. . ." Equally surprising is your acknowledgment that the courts need to sort this out, meaning, it seems, that you understand that we don't currently know the whole truth and, in the end, the court's finding may be in favor of FlightPrep. But until all the facts are weighed and the scales of justice are balanced, you are determined to light the torches and incite the villagers to help you assassinate the suspect. Sounds kind of like a kangaroo court - you know, "give the suspect a fair trial then hang the guilty bastard!" Of course you can do what you want with your money, your time, and your speech, but I would encourage you to spend a little time in your introspective place and see if you might prefer an approach that lets the contestants run the race before declaring a winner. Oh, and on that free speech thing, it's not free if it is used to promote an injustice and ends up costing you your honor. Just sayin. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:20 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent The problem is that Flightprep may have over extended their claim that other companies have infringed upon their patent and have used their attorneys to scare small guys, without money, to close down. The bigger corporations that have deeper pockets basically told Flightprep to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If they have overextended their claim on their patent then it is them who is stealing from others. Until the courts sort this out I am exercising my first amendment right of speaking out against Flightprep for using these heavy handed tactics against people who can't defend themselves and am encouraging my friends to join me in boycotting them as well. Looks like RunwayFinder has changed his mind in mounting a defense against Flightprep http://blog.runwayfinder.com/. I will, and I encourage everyone else, to use what money they would have bought Flightprep products with, to donate to Dave Parson's legal defense fund once it is up and running. Tom Quinn 249RR From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Curry Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:29 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don't know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn't the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone's private property it may be one of ours. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Starkey Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 2:22 PM To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent I'm afraid that putting adjectives in all caps doesn't necessarily make them true. The FlightPrep patent was filed in 2001, which, in software terms, is centuries back. The basis of the patent is using a client browser in conjunction with a server to develop a graphical flight plan. The systems cited as pre-existing art required all charts, etc., be resident on the client computer. A problem with the patent system is that even if neither A nor B is patentable, A + B is. Another problem is that although something obvious to practitioners of an art, the courts and the patent office recognize that almost everything is obvious after the fact. FlightPrep is indeed being pretty heavy handed and more that tad greedy. But they're also taking on some very big guns with very large legal budgets like Jeppesen and AOPA. Unless FlightPrep has backers with very deep pockets, they'll probably run out of money before Jeppesen and AOPA run out of appeals. Software is automatically copyrighted and may or may not be patented. There was a time that he USPTO considered software to algorithms, which are not patentable. The Supreme Court found otherwise. That said, I think a boycott of FlightPrep is not unreasonable. In their case, A + B was blatantly obvious, they added nothing to the state of the art, are suppressing useful services, and deserve to be put out of business by Foreflight on the iPad. On 12/23/2010 1:16 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Guys: I'm going to take a WAG here. If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their homework. More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class action suit? Barry = On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v wrote: FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep- Patent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_P lanner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down. They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net. They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission. Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones: http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPre pFlightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep. Thank you, -Boris P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings. ========== ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. ========== List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== -- Jim StarkeyFounder, NimbusDB, Inc.978 526-1376 www.aeroelectric.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contrib ution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Send your photos by email in seconds... Try FREE IM ToolPack at www.imtoolpack.com Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. www.aeroelectric.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List _====================== http://forums.matronics.com===== www.aeroelectric.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contrib ution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Free 3D Earth Screensaver Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com.com/" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com_ blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributionst" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listttp: //forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contrib ution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Free 3D Earth Screensaver Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:25:47 PM PST US From: "Don Curry" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Sorry, Cliff, sometimes it does that when Outlook gets full and I never know unless somebody tells me. I hope I fixed it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of flyv35b Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 3:36 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Don, is there something wrong with your email program, etc. I have gotten about 25 of the same emails from your this AM Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Curry Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 8:29 AM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Brian, Don't take this personally; I don't know you and I'm sure you are a great guy. But there seems to be a sudden glut of experts on your side who know an awful lot about the specific, inner workings of the FlightPrep patent and patent law in general. I don't know who is getting you guys lathered up, but my spider senses are on full alert. I think you're being played. According to something I read, the US Patent Office examined FlightPrep's patent application for eight years before issuing the patent. Eight years under a government bureaucrat's microscope=21 And then suddenly, within just a couple of weeks of RunwayFinder willingly pulling itself off the web, I read account after account from you experts who absolutely know that FlightPrep didn't deserve its patent -- and you back up your position by swearing and calling names which, of course, is an impressive and persuasive tactic for some=21 Of course, you only have to prove to yourselves that you know more than the US Patent Office and all the patent attorneys who have undoubtedly looked at this over the months - oh, and more than RunwayFinder, which took its site down for a reason - for once you have yourselves convinced, you can enjoy the fun of espousing your opinion in your characteristically delicate manner. Personally, I don't know how FlightPrep did it=21 In fact, I read in amazement some of Gary Vogt's accounts of his dealings with the FAA while he was getting his STC for his cowl. I'm sure I would have had an aneurism after about the second time the FAA changed some parameter it wanted to check=21 The point is, the government's professional deny-boys examined FlightPrep's application for what seems like an excessive amount of time and ultimately approved it. So should FlightPrep be commended for enduring the pain and bringing its product to market or should it be bashed for being successful? You have vociferously bought into the emotion that it should be bashed and boycotted. I think I'll cling to the =22innocent until proven guilty=22 concept for a while longer. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Brian Hausknecht Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:08 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Bullshit. They need to be boycotted. FlightPrep is a patent troll, taking advantage of the incompetence of the Patent Office to get a patent for the long-existing and widely used practice of web-based flight planning. The failures of the patent office are becoming legendary, if you have been following technology news. Patenting jestures and the act of performing an internet search? Morons=21 And as trolls, FlightPrep is incurring appropriate wrath for shaking down their competitors. Let them know you will not tolerate their unethical performance. Boycott them. I only wish there was a way to clean house at the patent office and get competent people there who will throw out these frivilous applications from Apple, Google, and FlightTroll. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Don Curry wrote: Tom, I'm not trying to assume the role of apologist or defender for FlightPrep, nor as antagonist to FlightPrep's detractors. However, as a proud member of the aviation community for many years, I have enjoyed the fact-based perspective this community usually displays. It must have something to do with working with gravity. So I am surprised to see your fervor backed up only by a =22may=22 and an =22if:=22 =22FlightPrep may have overextended their =5Bsic=5D claim. . .,=22 and =22If they overextended their =5Bsic=5D claim. . .=22 Equally surprising is your acknowledgment that the courts need to sort this out, meaning, it seems, that you understand that we don't currently know the whole truth and, in the end, the court's finding may be in favor of FlightPrep. But until all the facts are weighed and the scales of justice are balanced, you are determined to light the torches and incite the villagers to help you assassinate the suspect. Sounds kind of like a kangaroo court - you know, =22give the suspect a fair trial then hang the guilty bastard=21=22 Of course you can do what you want with your money, your time, and your speech, but I would encourage you to spend a little time in your introspective place and see if you might prefer an approach that lets the contestants run the race before declaring a winner. Oh, and on that free speech thing, it's not free if it is used to promote an injustice and ends up costing you your honor. Just sayin. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Tom Quinn Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent The problem is that Flightprep may have over extended their claim that other companies have infringed upon their patent and have used their attorneys to scare small guys, without money, to close down. The bigger corporations that have deeper pockets basically told Flightprep to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If they have overextended their claim on their patent then it is them who is stealing from others. Until the courts sort this out I am exercising my first amendment right of speaking out against Flightprep for using these heavy handed tactics against people who can't defend themselves and am encouraging my friends to join me in boycotting them as well. Looks like RunwayFinder has changed his mind in mounting a defense against Flightprep http://blog.runwayfinder.com/. I will, and I encourage everyone else, to use what money they would have bought Flightprep products with, to donate to Dave Parson's legal defense fund once it is up and running. Tom Quinn 249RR From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Don Curry Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don't know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn't the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone's private property it may be one of ours. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com =5Bmailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server=40matronics.com=5D On Behalf Of Jim Starkey Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 2:22 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent I'm afraid that putting adjectives in all caps doesn't necessarily make them true. The FlightPrep patent was filed in 2001, which, in software terms, is centuries back. The basis of the patent is using a client browser in conjunction with a server to develop a graphical flight plan. The systems cited as pre-existing art required all charts, etc., be resident on the client computer. A problem with the patent system is that even if neither A nor B is patentable, A + B is. Another problem is that although something obvious to practitioners of an art, the courts and the patent office recognize that almost everything is obvious after the fact. FlightPrep is indeed being pretty heavy handed and more that tad greedy. But they're also taking on some very big guns with very large legal budgets like Jeppesen and AOPA. Unless FlightPrep has backers with very deep pockets, they'll probably run out of money before Jeppesen and AOPA run out of appeals. Software is automatically copyrighted and may or may not be patented. There was a time that he USPTO considered software to algorithms, which are not patentable. The Supreme Court found otherwise. That said, I think a boycott of FlightPrep is not unreasonable. In their case, A + B was blatantly obvious, they added nothing to the state of the art, are suppressing useful services, and deserve to be put out of business by Foreflight on the iPad. On 12/23/2010 1:16 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Guys: I'm going to take a WAG here. If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their homework. More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class action suit? Barry = On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v wrote: FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep-Pat ent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_Plan ner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down. They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net . They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission. Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones: http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPrepFl ightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep. Thank you, -Boris P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings. ==22_blank=22>www.aeroelectric.com ooks.com =22 target==22_blank=22>www.buildersbooks.com et==22_blank=22>www.homebuilthelp.com ==22_blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/contribution le, List Admin. List=22 target==22_blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List http://forums.matronics.com -- Jim Starkey Founder, NimbusDB, Inc. 978 526-1376 www.aeroelectric.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Try IM ToolPack Send your photos by email in seconds... Try FREE IM ToolPack at www.imtoolpack.com Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. www.aeroelectric.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/c -Matt Dralle, List - The TeamGrumman-List Email List utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List _====================== http://forums.matronics.com ==== www.aeroelectric.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ 3D Earth Screensaver Preview Free 3D Earth Screensaver Watch the Earth right on your desktop=21 Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth =22_blank=22>www.aeroelectric.com =2Ecom/=22 target==22_blank=22>www.buildersbooks.com ==22_blank=22>www.homebuilthelp.com _blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/contribution st=22 target==22_blank=22>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ttp://forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ 3D Earth Screensaver Preview Free 3D Earth Screensaver Watch the Earth right on your desktop=21 Check it out at www.inbox.com/earth href==22http://www.aeroelectric.com=22>www.aeroelectric.com href==22http://www.buildersbooks.com=22>www.buildersbooks.com href==22http://www.homebuilthelp.com=22>www.homebuilthelp.com href==22http://www.matronics.com/contribution=22>http://www.matronics.com /chref =22http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=22>http://www.matron ics.c om/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href==22http://forums.matronics.com=22>http://forums.matronics.com ____________________________________________________________ Share photos & screenshots in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if1 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:43 PM PST US From: "allenc3@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent If I remember my history correctly, the Wright Bros. Patented heavier than a ir flying. Did not do them any good either (I went on the Wright Bros. Tour a t Dayton). Claude Allen Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2010, at 3:42 PM, Linn Walters wrote: > This is what I've heard ..... so don't count them as facts. > First, they're patents. ;-) > Second, it was said that the original patent application was rejected, and that new wording was presented and passed. > No, I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and think that a boycott is a g ood way to display displeasure ..... in this instance or any other. > Linn > > Merry Christmas everybody!!! > > > > On 12/24/2010 3:28 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >> With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up the A CTUAL PATTEN? >> >> I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT been a ble to find anything on FlightPrep. >> >> Is it registered under any other company name or person? >> >> Who found what ... "Eight years" in investigation via the patten office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash! Maybe it sat on some bureaucrat ic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the last 1/4 day. >> >> BUT! Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this oral ded ication. >> >> I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE. >> >> My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people are N OT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few years. And ho w bright can Einstein be; he killed his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. Hell, maybe GOD did play dice! >> >> >> "The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS" >> >> Barry >> >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:38 PM PST US From: Bob Hodo Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Happy Birthday to You,- Happy Birthday, WE'LL SUE! Interesting read:- http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp The people who own the rights weren't even born when the tune and words mor phed together and it generates about $2 million per year for them. Now I think I will run to the patent office and get me a patent on holding the control key down and pressing C- for copy. Reminds me of a song by Chris Rea, called "Texas".- A line says, "Been ta lkin' to my neighbor, and he agree's with me...- it's all gone crazy." BH =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:32 PM PST US From: Bob Hodo Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent "Another object is to provide an interactive means of pointing and clicking on waypoints and other chart features and therefore, obtain information ab out these chart features." Apparently these folks, while not claiming to have invented pointing and cl icking, claim to have been the first to think of using this computer method for flight planning. I don't sense that they are claiming to have invented anything.- But have taken the position that things have been invented that nobody else has mad e a claim for, and so they have sought and received exclusive rights to use or license it. Airnav and Navmonster and AOPA would be doing exactly what they were doing last week if these people had never been born.- They stole nothing from t hem.- The thieves are the first ones to hire a lawyer. BH =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:09 PM PST US From: Jim Starkey Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to claim I'm an expert, but I am a softwa re developer and entrepreneur and hold a number of software patents. I've a lso looked at the FlightPrep patent. Prior to the FlightPrep patent, graphical flight planning required that digi tized charts be present on the client computer. Given the size of computers and the speed of networks in 2001, this was a real problem. FlightPrep dev eloped a system that would chop large charts into browser size hunks that co uld be easily loaded. That was the interesting part. They also had a mecha nism to stitch the legs from different charts together, which is a no-braine r. With cheap, incredibly fast hardware and ubiquitous high speed networking, t his stuff isn't nearly as hard as it once was. The point is that the FlightPrep guys apparently pioneered a useful technolo gy when it was both diffficult and expensive to do so. That fact that subse quent developments made it less difficult doesn't detract from their origina l work. Perhaps someone will find prior art that invalidates the patent. If, howeve ver, they knew of prior art and didn't disclose this to the patent office, t he patent will be faund fraudulent, the patent invalid, and the inventor who signed the application is deep shit. All that said, I don't consider it wise for the FlightPrep guys to press the ir case. The technology is too widespread and useful to be put back in the b ottle. Doing what they're trying to do is going to piss off almost everyone with a pilot's license and many that don't. FlightPrep's business is being wiped out by the iPad, better products, and m uch cheaper chart subscriptions. Like all businesses that won't or can't st ay competitive, they should go out of business. Sorry about the earlier, gu ys, but you had something that anyone else would have invented six weeks lat er. You may own it, but good luck collecting. A back the boycott. I had one of their convertible tablets. It worked, sor t, but didn't belong in the cockpit. Faced with a chart renewal, it was app arent that the different between their subscription price and ForeFlight's w ould pay for half of the iPad in the first year. Again, sorry guys, your pr oduct stinks, and you change too much. (This is typed on an iPad.) Don't trash their patent. It's probably deserved. If I were a competitor, I 'd fight it. And if somebody I liked wanted to fight it, I'd contribute. I t's probably their's, however, but they should be graceful and forget about i t. Founder, NimbusDB, Inc. 978 526-1376 On Dec 24, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Bob Hodo wrote: > "Another object is to provide an interactive means of pointing and clickin g on waypoints and other chart features and therefore, obtain information ab out these chart features." > > Apparently these folks, while not claiming to have invented pointing and c licking, claim to have been the first to think of using this computer method for flight planning. > > I don't sense that they are claiming to have invented anything. But have t aken the position that things have been invented that nobody else has made a claim for, and so they have sought and received exclusive rights to use or l icense it. > > Airnav and Navmonster and AOPA would be doing exactly what they were doing last week if these people had never been born. They stole nothing from the m. The thieves are the first ones to hire a lawyer. > > BH > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:31 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent Nope .... they must just be picking on you. :-P Linn On 12/24/2010 4:21 PM, flyv35b wrote: > *Is anyone else getting numerous copies of this same email?* > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Don Curry > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Friday, December 24, 2010 8:29 AM > *Subject:* RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent > > Brian, > > Don't take this personally; I don't know you and I'm sure you are > a great guy. But there seems to be a sudden glut of experts on > your side who know an awful lot about the specific, inner workings > of the FlightPrep patent and patent law in general. I don't know > who is getting you guys lathered up, but my spider senses are on > full alert. I think you're being played. According to something > I read, the US Patent Office examined FlightPrep's patent > application for eight years before issuing the patent. Eight > years under a government bureaucrat's microscope! And then > suddenly, within just a couple of weeks of RunwayFinder willingly > pulling itself off the web, I read account after account from you > experts who absolutely know that FlightPrep didn't deserve its > patent -- and you back up your position by swearing and calling > names which, of course, is an impressive and persuasive tactic for > some! Of course, you only have to prove to yourselves that you > know more than the US Patent Office and all the patent attorneys > who have undoubtedly looked at this over the months -- oh, and > more than RunwayFinder, which took its site down for a reason -- > for once you have yourselves convinced, you can enjoy the fun of > espousing your opinion in your characteristically delicate > manner. Personally, I don't know how FlightPrep did it! In fact, > I read in amazement some of Gary Vogt's accounts of his dealings > with the FAA while he was getting his STC for his cowl. I'm sure > I would have had an aneurism after about the second time the FAA > changed some parameter it wanted to check! The point is, the > government's professional deny-boys examined FlightPrep's > application for what seems like an excessive amount of time and > ultimately approved it. So should FlightPrep be commended for > enduring the pain and bringing its product to market or should it > be bashed for being successful? You have vociferously bought into > the emotion that it should be bashed and boycotted. I think I'll > cling to the "innocent until proven guilty" concept for a while > longer. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Brian Hausknecht > *Sent:* Friday, December 24, 2010 12:08 AM > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent > > Bullshit. They need to be boycotted. > > FlightPrep is a patent troll, taking advantage of the incompetence > of the Patent Office to get a patent for the long-existing and > widely used practice of web-based flight planning. The failures > of the patent office are becoming legendary, if you have been > following technology news. Patenting jestures and the act of > performing an internet search? Morons! > > And as trolls, FlightPrep is incurring appropriate wrath for > shaking down their competitors. > > Let them know you will not tolerate their unethical performance. > Boycott them. > > I only wish there was a way to clean house at the patent office > and get competent people there who will throw out these frivilous > applications from Apple, Google, and FlightTroll. > > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Don Curry > wrote: > > Tom, > > I'm not trying to assume the role of apologist or defender for > FlightPrep, nor as antagonist to FlightPrep's detractors. > However, as a proud member of the aviation community for many > years, I have enjoyed the fact-based perspective this community > usually displays. It must have something to do with working with > gravity. So I am surprised to see your fervor backed up only by a > "may" and an "if:" "FlightPrep _may_ have overextended their [sic] > claim. . .," and "_If_ they overextended their [sic] claim. . ." > Equally surprising is your acknowledgment that the courts need to > sort this out, meaning, it seems, that you understand that we > don't currently know the whole truth and, in the end, the court's > finding may be in favor of FlightPrep. But until all the facts > are weighed and the scales of justice are balanced, you are > determined to light the torches and incite the villagers to help > you assassinate the suspect. Sounds kind of like a kangaroo court > -- you know, "give the suspect a fair trial then hang the guilty > bastard!" Of course you can do what you want with your money, > your time, and your speech, but I would encourage you to spend a > little time in your introspective place and see if you might > prefer an approach that lets the contestants run the race before > declaring a winner. Oh, and on that free speech thing, it's not > free if it is used to promote an injustice and ends up costing you > your honor. Just sayin. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf > Of *Tom Quinn > *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2010 4:20 PM > > > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > > > *Subject:*RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent > > The problem is that Flightprep may have over extended their claim > that other companies have infringed upon their patent and have > used their attorneys to scare small guys, without money, to close > down. The bigger corporations that have deeper pockets basically > told Flightprep to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. If they > have overextended their claim on their patent then it is them who > is stealing from others. Until the courts sort this out I am > exercising my first amendment right of speaking out against > Flightprep for using these heavy handed tactics against people who > can't defend themselves and am encouraging my friends to join me > in boycotting them as well. Looks like RunwayFinder has changed > his mind in mounting a defense against Flightprep > http://blog.runwayfinder.com/. I will, and I encourage everyone > else, to use what money they would have bought Flightprep products > with, to donate to Dave Parson's legal defense fund once it is up > and running. > > Tom Quinn > > 249RR > > *From:*owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf > Of *Don Curry > *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:29 PM > > > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > > > *Subject:*RE: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent > > If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then > why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost > sight of the value of private property in this country that we are > willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own > possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and > put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and > bitter to me. Personally, I don't know if FlightPrep has a legal > and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has > infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do > is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. > However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if > RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it > without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on > those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or > otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn't the > strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its > dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the > mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take > someone's private property it may be one of ours. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf > Of *Jim Starkey > *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2010 2:22 PM > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > > *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: FlightPrep patent > > I'm afraid that putting adjectives in all caps doesn't necessarily > make them true. The FlightPrep patent was filed in 2001, which, > in software terms, is centuries back. > > The basis of the patent is using a client browser in conjunction > with a server to develop a graphical flight plan. The systems > cited as pre-existing art required all charts, etc., be resident > on the client computer. > > A problem with the patent system is that even if neither A nor B > is patentable, A + B is. Another problem is that although > something obvious to practitioners of an art, the courts and the > patent office recognize that almost everything is obvious after > the fact. > > FlightPrep is indeed being pretty heavy handed and more that tad > greedy. But they're also taking on some very big guns with very > large legal budgets like Jeppesen and AOPA. Unless FlightPrep has > backers with very deep pockets, they'll probably run out of money > before Jeppesen and AOPA run out of appeals. > > Software is automatically copyrighted and may or may not be > patented. There was a time that he USPTO considered software to > algorithms, which are not patentable. The Supreme Court found > otherwise. > > That said, I think a boycott of FlightPrep is not unreasonable. > In their case, A + B was blatantly obvious, they added nothing to > the state of the art, are suppressing useful services, and deserve > to be put out of business by Foreflight on the iPad. > > > On 12/23/2010 1:16 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Guys: > > I'm going to take a WAG here. > > If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there > is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to > be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a > quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their > homework. > > More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that > SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a > doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT > could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class > action suit? > > > Barry > > ========================== > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v > wrote: > > > > > FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line > flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they > patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now > they are going after all on-line flight planning companies > including FltPlan > (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware > (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep-Patent/147) > and > AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_Planner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) > and trying to shake them down. > They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite > chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com > and www.flyagogo.net . They managed to > intimidate SkyVector into submission. > > Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's > assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, > particularly the free ones: > > http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPrepFlightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html > > Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep. > > Thank you, > -Boris > > P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude > thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no > relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings. > > > ========== > ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com > ooks.com " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > le, List Admin. > ========== > List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > > * * > > * * > > -- > > Jim Starkey > > Founder, NimbusDB, Inc. > > 978 526-1376 > > * * > > * * > > *www.aeroelectric.com * > > *www.homebuilthelp.com * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Try IM ToolPack > **Send your photos > by email in seconds...** > **Try FREE IM ToolPack** at www.imtoolpack.com > > Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social > networks. > > * * > > * * > > www.aeroelectric.com > www.homebuilthelp.com > http://www.matronics.com/c= > -Matt Dralle, List - The TeamGrumman-List Email List > utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > > *_====================== http://forums.matronics.com =====* > > * * > > * * > > *www.aeroelectric.com * > > *www.homebuilthelp.com * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 3D Earth Screensaver Preview > **Free 3D Earth Screensaver** > Watch the Earth right on your desktop! 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