Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:45 AM - Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/11/11 ()
2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/11/11 (flyv35b)
3. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/11/11 (Mel Beckman)
4. 10:11 AM - Re: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin (Gary Vogt)
5. 10:17 AM - Fw: special movie - low flying over Europe (Gary Vogt)
6. 10:44 AM - Re: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin (Gary Vogt)
7. 07:21 PM - flutter (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/11/11 |
I have compared filter torque at 3/4 to 1 additional turn (by hand) after
gasket contact, per the manufacturer's instruction, with the 18-22 lb-ft
Lycoming specification and consider the 18 lb-ft value to be excessive.
Mike
AA5
Time: 09:59:19 PM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin
From: Mel Beckman <mel@becknet.com>
Gary,
It sounds like whoever installed the filter either over-torqued it or didn
't use DC-4 lubricant, or both. Alas, this means that you may now have a war
ped filter adapter plate (the Lycoming engine maintenance manual talks about
this). You should check the plate for warpage as soon as possible -- before
the next flight. The filter may not leak for a while, but then suddenly giv
e way, result in an engine fire or even catastrophic engine failure.
I always use an automative-type filter along with a 12-point 7/8" socket on
t
he hex end of the filter to get a double grip on the filter, but sometimes t
hat's not enough and you have to use the filter piercing trick. The hex end
i
s just sheet metal, so I would avoid any kind of crushing tool like a vise g
rip. A great strap wrench that lets you use any 3/8" socket wrench as a hand
le is the Plews-Edelmann 70635:
http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Plews-Edelmann-70635-Oil-Filter-Wrench-62894
09.html
Lycoming also recommends Dow Corning DC-4 compound as a filter gasket lubric
ant rather than engine oil. This makes an astounding difference in ease of r
emoval, and DC-4 is cheap: $15 for a lifetime supply from AC Spruce.
Your idea about only tightening the filter past the gasket plus 1/2 turn isn
't a good one, though. Lycoming calls for a specific torque, I believe 18 to
22 foot lbs on the O-360, and cautions about over-torquing leading to adapt
er plate warpage. I know you didn't cause this filter's problem, but your me
thod could result in either under or over torque when replacing the filter.
I once had massive smoke in the cockpit immediately after takeoff due to an
o
il filter failure after change. I landed OK, and the engine wasn't damaged,
b
ut I pay real close attention now to Lycoming's recommendations.
-mel
On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just spent an hour REMOVING an oil filter.
>
> About the only thing that would have helped would have been the old style
s
trap type oil filter remover. I didn't have one.
>
> I started out using vise grips with a 7/8 inch wrench as a breaker bar ext
ension. I got the nut on the filter pretty much rounded off. Then, I got a
24 inch screw driver and punched through the oil filter. With both working
at the same time, I was able to turn the filter about 1/4 turn. Then, it s
tuck again and all I did was end up tearing the oil filter. I then punched
a
ll the way through and was able to turn it about another 1/8 turn. Then I p
unched a new hole an inch from the other but this time all the way through.
I was able to turn the filter another 1/4 turn. So, now I used the holes o
n the bottom and pushed the screw driver through. With the vise grip and th
e 7/8 inch wrench, I was able to get it another 1/2 turn. =46rom there, I u
sed the vise grip and was able to turn the filter. The filter did not come
o
ff the gasket for another turn. This filter was so seriously over tightened
that there is no describing it.
>
> PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO TIGHTEN THE FILTER PAST GASKET CONTACT PLUS 1/2
TURN. IT WILL NOT LEAK. IT WILL NOT COME OFF.
>
> See pics.
>
> This isn't the first filter I've had to resort to extreme measures to remo
ve. This is the tightest one though.
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RE: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/11/11 |
3/4 to 1 turn is close, but the recommended torque for both Champion and
Tempest has been 16-18 ft-lb for a long time.
Cliff
On 3/12/2011 3:43 AM, lehman@acanac.net wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by:<lehman@acanac.net>
>
>
> I have compared filter torque at 3/4 to 1 additional turn (by hand) after
> gasket contact, per the manufacturer's instruction, with the 18-22 lb-ft
> Lycoming specification and consider the 18 lb-ft value to be excessive.
>
> Mike
> AA5
>
>
> Time: 09:59:19 PM PST US
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin
> From: Mel Beckman<mel@becknet.com>
>
> Gary,
>
> It sounds like whoever installed the filter either over-torqued it or didn
> 't use DC-4 lubricant, or both. Alas, this means that you may now have a war
> ped filter adapter plate (the Lycoming engine maintenance manual talks about
> this). You should check the plate for warpage as soon as possible -- before
> the next flight. The filter may not leak for a while, but then suddenly giv
> e way, result in an engine fire or even catastrophic engine failure.
>
> I always use an automative-type filter along with a 12-point 7/8" socket on
> t
> he hex end of the filter to get a double grip on the filter, but sometimes t
> hat's not enough and you have to use the filter piercing trick. The hex end
> i
> s just sheet metal, so I would avoid any kind of crushing tool like a vise g
> rip. A great strap wrench that lets you use any 3/8" socket wrench as a hand
> le is the Plews-Edelmann 70635:
>
> http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Plews-Edelmann-70635-Oil-Filter-Wrench-62894
> 09.html
>
> Lycoming also recommends Dow Corning DC-4 compound as a filter gasket lubric
> ant rather than engine oil. This makes an astounding difference in ease of r
> emoval, and DC-4 is cheap: $15 for a lifetime supply from AC Spruce.
>
> Your idea about only tightening the filter past the gasket plus 1/2 turn isn
> 't a good one, though. Lycoming calls for a specific torque, I believe 18 to
> 22 foot lbs on the O-360, and cautions about over-torquing leading to adapt
> er plate warpage. I know you didn't cause this filter's problem, but your me
> thod could result in either under or over torque when replacing the filter.
>
> I once had massive smoke in the cockpit immediately after takeoff due to an
> o
> il filter failure after change. I landed OK, and the engine wasn't damaged,
> b
> ut I pay real close attention now to Lycoming's recommendations.
>
> -mel
>
> On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Gary Vogt<teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I just spent an hour REMOVING an oil filter.
>>
>> About the only thing that would have helped would have been the old style
> s
> trap type oil filter remover. I didn't have one.
>>
>> I started out using vise grips with a 7/8 inch wrench as a breaker bar ext
> ension. I got the nut on the filter pretty much rounded off. Then, I got a
> 24 inch screw driver and punched through the oil filter. With both working
> at the same time, I was able to turn the filter about 1/4 turn. Then, it s
> tuck again and all I did was end up tearing the oil filter. I then punched
> a
> ll the way through and was able to turn it about another 1/8 turn. Then I p
> unched a new hole an inch from the other but this time all the way through.
> I was able to turn the filter another 1/4 turn. So, now I used the holes o
> n the bottom and pushed the screw driver through. With the vise grip and th
> e 7/8 inch wrench, I was able to get it another 1/2 turn. =46rom there, I u
> sed the vise grip and was able to turn the filter. The filter did not come
> o
> ff the gasket for another turn. This filter was so seriously over tightened
> that there is no describing it.
>>
>> PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO TIGHTEN THE FILTER PAST GASKET CONTACT PLUS 1/2
> TURN. IT WILL NOT LEAK. IT WILL NOT COME OFF.
>>
>> See pics.
>>
>> This isn't the first filter I've had to resort to extreme measures to remo
> ve. This is the tightest one though.
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 03/11/11 |
Cliff, you're right on the torque value. My memory was faulty, which is why I always
look it up every time ;)
The reason for a specific torque is because that range has been demonstrated by
lycoming, after thousands of hours of engine cell tests, to be what you need
to keep the filter from vibrating loose as the gasket shrinks over time, without
damaging the thin adapter plate.
Incidentally, these filters have integrated single-use gaskets that are destroyed
when you remove the filter, which is why you should always use a fresh filter
if you have to remove one for any reason (such as to inspect the adapter plate
for warpage). I know it doesn't look destroyed, but its compression characteristics
are irreversibly altered by the removal torque.
-mel
On Mar 12, 2011, at 6:40 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> 3/4 to 1 turn is close, but the recommended torque for both Champion and Tempest
has been 16-18 ft-lb for a long time.
>
> Cliff
>
> On 3/12/2011 3:43 AM, lehman@acanac.net wrote:
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by:<lehman@acanac.net>
>>
>>
>> I have compared filter torque at 3/4 to 1 additional turn (by hand) after
>> gasket contact, per the manufacturer's instruction, with the 18-22 lb-ft
>> Lycoming specification and consider the 18 lb-ft value to be excessive.
>>
>> Mike
>> AA5
>>
>>
>> Time: 09:59:19 PM PST US
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin
>> From: Mel Beckman<mel@becknet.com>
>>
>> Gary,
>>
>> It sounds like whoever installed the filter either over-torqued it or didn
>> 't use DC-4 lubricant, or both. Alas, this means that you may now have a war
>> ped filter adapter plate (the Lycoming engine maintenance manual talks about
>> this). You should check the plate for warpage as soon as possible -- before
>> the next flight. The filter may not leak for a while, but then suddenly giv
>> e way, result in an engine fire or even catastrophic engine failure.
>>
>> I always use an automative-type filter along with a 12-point 7/8" socket on
>> t
>> he hex end of the filter to get a double grip on the filter, but sometimes t
>> hat's not enough and you have to use the filter piercing trick. The hex end
>> i
>> s just sheet metal, so I would avoid any kind of crushing tool like a vise g
>> rip. A great strap wrench that lets you use any 3/8" socket wrench as a hand
>> le is the Plews-Edelmann 70635:
>>
>> http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Plews-Edelmann-70635-Oil-Filter-Wrench-62894
>> 09.html
>>
>> Lycoming also recommends Dow Corning DC-4 compound as a filter gasket lubric
>> ant rather than engine oil. This makes an astounding difference in ease of r
>> emoval, and DC-4 is cheap: $15 for a lifetime supply from AC Spruce.
>>
>> Your idea about only tightening the filter past the gasket plus 1/2 turn isn
>> 't a good one, though. Lycoming calls for a specific torque, I believe 18 to
>> 22 foot lbs on the O-360, and cautions about over-torquing leading to adapt
>> er plate warpage. I know you didn't cause this filter's problem, but your me
>> thod could result in either under or over torque when replacing the filter.
>>
>> I once had massive smoke in the cockpit immediately after takeoff due to an
>> o
>> il filter failure after change. I landed OK, and the engine wasn't damaged,
>> b
>> ut I pay real close attention now to Lycoming's recommendations.
>>
>> -mel
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Gary Vogt<teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just spent an hour REMOVING an oil filter.
>>>
>>> About the only thing that would have helped would have been the old style
>> s
>> trap type oil filter remover. I didn't have one.
>>>
>>> I started out using vise grips with a 7/8 inch wrench as a breaker bar ext
>> ension. I got the nut on the filter pretty much rounded off. Then, I got a
>> 24 inch screw driver and punched through the oil filter. With both working
>> at the same time, I was able to turn the filter about 1/4 turn. Then, it s
>> tuck again and all I did was end up tearing the oil filter. I then punched
>> a
>> ll the way through and was able to turn it about another 1/8 turn. Then I p
>> unched a new hole an inch from the other but this time all the way through.
>> I was able to turn the filter another 1/4 turn. So, now I used the holes o
>> n the bottom and pushed the screw driver through. With the vise grip and th
>> e 7/8 inch wrench, I was able to get it another 1/2 turn. =46rom there, I u
>> sed the vise grip and was able to turn the filter. The filter did not come
>> o
>> ff the gasket for another turn. This filter was so seriously over tightened
>> that there is no describing it.
>>>
>>> PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO TIGHTEN THE FILTER PAST GASKET CONTACT PLUS 1/2
>> TURN. IT WILL NOT LEAK. IT WILL NOT COME OFF.
>>>
>>> See pics.
>>>
>>> This isn't the first filter I've had to resort to extreme measures to remo
>> ve. This is the tightest one though.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin |
Blah, blah, blah, the sky is falling,
I've been installing oil filters on airplanes for 35 years. I use the engine
oil and I tighten as I said. I've never had one leak.
As for warping the surface. Are you serious? The gasket will blow out and the
engine will catch fire? You can't be serious.
You use an automotive type filter? you mean filter wrench.
Quit overworking the problem. Tighten as I say and you won't need anything
fancy to remove the next one.
________________________________
From: Mel Beckman <mel@becknet.com>
Sent: Fri, March 11, 2011 9:25:22 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin
Gary,
It sounds like whoever installed the filter either over-torqued it or didn't
use DC-4 lubricant, or both. Alas, this means that you may now have a warped
filter adapter plate (the Lycoming engine maintenance manual talks about this).
You should check the plate for warpage as soon as possible -- before the next
flight. The filter may not leak for a while, but then suddenly give way, result
in an engine fire or even catastrophic engine failure.
I always use an automative-type filter along with a 12-point 7/8" socket on the
hex end of the filter to get a double grip on the filter, but sometimes that's
not enough and you have to use the filter piercing trick. The hex end is just
sheet metal, so I would avoid any kind of crushing tool like a vise grip. A
great strap wrench that lets you use any 3/8" socket wrench as a handle is
the Plews-Edelmann 70635:
http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Plews-Edelmann-70635-Oil-Filter-Wrench-6289409.html
Lycoming also recommends Dow Corning DC-4 compound as a filter gasket lubricant
rather than engine oil. This makes an astounding difference in ease of removal,
and DC-4 is cheap: $15 for a lifetime supply from AC Spruce.
Your idea about only tightening the filter past the gasket plus 1/2 turn isn't
a
good one, though. Lycoming calls for a specific torque, I believe 18 to 22 foot
lbs on the O-360, and cautions about over-torquing leading to adapter plate
warpage. I know you didn't cause this filter's problem, but your method could
result in either under or over torque when replacing the filter.
I once had massive smoke in the cockpit immediately after takeoff due to an oil
filter failure after change. I landed OK, and the engine wasn't damaged, but I
pay real close attention now to Lycoming's recommendations.
-mel
On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
I just spent an hour REMOVING an oil filter.
>
>
>About the only thing that would have helped would have been the old style strap
>type oil filter remover. I didn't have one.
>
>
>I started out using vise grips with a 7/8 inch wrench as a breaker bar
>extension. I got the nut on the filter pretty much rounded off. Then, I got
a
>24 inch screw driver and punched through the oil filter. With both working at
>the same time, I was able to turn the filter about 1/4 turn. Then, it stuck
>again and all I did was end up tearing the oil filter. I then punched all the
>way through and was able to turn it about another 1/8 turn. Then I punched a
>new hole an inch from the other but this time all the way through. I was able
>to turn the filter another 1/4 turn. So, now I used the holes on the bottom and
>pushed the screw driver through. With the vise grip and the 7/8 inch wrench,
I
>was able to get it another 1/2 turn. From there, I used the vise grip and was
>able to turn the filter. The filter did not come off the gasket for another
>turn. This filter was so seriously over tightened that there is no describing
>it.
>
>
>PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO TIGHTEN THE FILTER PAST GASKET CONTACT PLUS 1/2 TURN.
> IT WILL NOT LEAK. IT WILL NOT COME OFF.
>
>
>See pics.
>
>
>This isn't the first filter I've had to resort to extreme measures to remove.
> This is the tightest one though.
>
<IMG_0759.jpg>
<IMG_0761.jpg>
<IMG_0763.jpg>
<IMG_0766.jpg>
<IMG_0767.jpg>
<IMG_0769.jpg>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fw: special movie - low flying over Europe |
Very cool.=0A=0A=0AHigh quality video =93 low flying over Europe =0A
=0Ahttp://www.tubewatcher.tv/182=0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin |
Mel, you wrote that the gasket shrinks. Oil soaked gaskets shrink. That's a
good one.
Given that as a basis, removing the oil filter should always be easier than
installing them. In fact, on airplanes that get the oil filter changed once a
year, the oil filter should not even be tight; it should be leaking.
I've got two customers who change their oil only at the annual. One customer
had over 125 hours since oil change. Let's disregard his reasoning for this
discussion. Using my method still requires vice grips to get the filter started
for removal.
Based on your reasoning, the oil filter needs the safety wire to keep it in
place. Just for shits and grins, for 2 years, I purposely safety wired the oil
filter on my plane with up to an inch of slack in the safety wire. The oil
filter never worked loose in 230 hours of flying.
________________________________
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, March 12, 2011 10:06:11 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin
Blah, blah, blah, the sky is falling,
I've been installing oil filters on airplanes for 35 years. I use the engine
oil and I tighten as I said. I've never had one leak.
As for warping the surface. Are you serious? The gasket will blow out and the
engine will catch fire? You can't be serious.
You use an automotive type filter? you mean filter wrench.
Quit overworking the problem. Tighten as I say and you won't need anything
fancy to remove the next one.
________________________________
From: Mel Beckman <mel@becknet.com>
Sent: Fri, March 11, 2011 9:25:22 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Holy Bat-Fuck Robin
Gary,
It sounds like whoever installed the filter either over-torqued it or didn't
use DC-4 lubricant, or both. Alas, this means that you may now have a warped
filter adapter plate (the Lycoming engine maintenance manual talks about this).
You should check the plate for warpage as soon as possible -- before the next
flight. The filter may not leak for a while, but then suddenly give way, result
in an engine fire or even catastrophic engine failure.
I always use an automative-type filter along with a 12-point 7/8" socket on the
hex end of the filter to get a double grip on the filter, but sometimes that's
not enough and you have to use the filter piercing trick. The hex end is just
sheet metal, so I would avoid any kind of crushing tool like a vise grip. A
great strap wrench that lets you use any 3/8" socket wrench as a handle is
the Plews-Edelmann 70635:
http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Plews-Edelmann-70635-Oil-Filter-Wrench-6289409.html
Lycoming also recommends Dow Corning DC-4 compound as a filter gasket lubricant
rather than engine oil. This makes an astounding difference in ease of removal,
and DC-4 is cheap: $15 for a lifetime supply from AC Spruce.
Your idea about only tightening the filter past the gasket plus 1/2 turn isn't
a
good one, though. Lycoming calls for a specific torque, I believe 18 to 22 foot
lbs on the O-360, and cautions about over-torquing leading to adapter plate
warpage. I know you didn't cause this filter's problem, but your method could
result in either under or over torque when replacing the filter.
I once had massive smoke in the cockpit immediately after takeoff due to an oil
filter failure after change. I landed OK, and the engine wasn't damaged, but I
pay real close attention now to Lycoming's recommendations.
-mel
On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
I just spent an hour REMOVING an oil filter.
>
>
>About the only thing that would have helped would have been the old style strap
>type oil filter remover. I didn't have one.
>
>
>I started out using vise grips with a 7/8 inch wrench as a breaker bar
>extension. I got the nut on the filter pretty much rounded off. Then, I got
a
>24 inch screw driver and punched through the oil filter. With both working at
>the same time, I was able to turn the filter about 1/4 turn. Then, it stuck
>again and all I did was end up tearing the oil filter. I then punched all the
>way through and was able to turn it about another 1/8 turn. Then I punched a
>new hole an inch from the other but this time all the way through. I was able
>to turn the filter another 1/4 turn. So, now I used the holes on the bottom and
>pushed the screw driver through. With the vise grip and the 7/8 inch wrench,
I
>was able to get it another 1/2 turn. From there, I used the vise grip and was
>able to turn the filter. The filter did not come off the gasket for another
>turn. This filter was so seriously over tightened that there is no describing
>it.
>
>
>PEOPLE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO TIGHTEN THE FILTER PAST GASKET CONTACT PLUS 1/2 TURN.
> IT WILL NOT LEAK. IT WILL NOT COME OFF.
>
>
>See pics.
>
>
>This isn't the first filter I've had to resort to extreme measures to remove.
> This is the tightest one though.
>
<IMG_0759.jpg>
<IMG_0761.jpg>
<IMG_0763.jpg>
<IMG_0766.jpg>
<IMG_0767.jpg>
<IMG_0769.jpg>
Message 7
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