Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:44 PM - =?utf-8?Q?LoPresti_IceSkates=84=A2? (arjays@AOL.COM)
2. 01:57 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 - engine thrust angle (Gary Vogt)
3. 01:57 PM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IExvUHJlc3RpIEljZVNrYXRlc+KEog==? (Gary Vogt)
4. 02:17 PM - How about somw pics? (ArjayS@AOL.COM)
5. 02:22 PM - Re: Cooling exit ramp (discover)
6. 07:34 PM - Re: How about somw pics? (Gary Vogt)
7. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: Cooling exit ramp (Gary Vogt)
8. 08:48 PM - Re: Cooling exit ramp (discover)
9. 08:58 PM - Re: Re: Cooling exit ramp (Scott Boyce)
Message 1
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| Subject: | =?utf-8?Q?LoPresti_IceSkates=84=A2? |
Hi Guys!
First, let me say how much I enjoyed the "gathering". Thanks for
allowing me to spout off my 2 cents about the extraordinary value of
the group and the way to make it grow. (My belief is we must make it
personal. Leave your own phone number on every Grumman you see with an
invitation to call).
Second, I'm wildly pleased that everyone likes our IceSkate design. You
may know this is our #1 product for Cirrus Aircraft. Our design has a
huge door for tire pressure and inspection, a cooling vent for the
brakes, much lighter than stock (not hard to do), reduced drag, carbon
fiber construction, 1/4 turn fasteners for fast installation and
removal and an integrated strut fairing. (It's also very sexy. That's a
feature I don't take lightly. If it does not look really, really cool,
it offends our sense of design).
This is a trial balloon. I need to know how many of us are interested.
If the group is large enough I can do a product run which is more
affordable than the Cirrus unit. The Cirrus SR20 version of our
IceSkates sell for $7495. If we can get a group of 25 AA5's together we
can make a deal for $5495 and if we can get 50 we can manufacture for
$4495. The set will include all three pants, all three strut fairings,
all new hardware, all brackets and fasteners, etc. It will be a
certified STC product and can be installed and removed by the owner.
So. Let's start a dialog. Whatcha think?
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 - engine |
thrust angle
Bob, you are always so wordy.
Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's not get your panties all in a bunch over this engine
alignment.
Boris (or whoever is interested) get on the internet and find a digital level.
Find one good to .5 degrees. Now, go out and measure the engine down thrust
angle every AA5, AA5A, AA5B, AG5B you see. Measure at the canopy rails, and
measure across the rocker boxes. You will likely find, as I have, that the down
thrust angle varies between 1.5 and 7.5 degrees down. I had a new customer come
in with 1 degree up but his engine was obviously wrong (WRT the cowling).
Bob, if the engine down thrust angle were that critical, we'd be given
directions on how to keep safe.
Bob, if the factory set up the planes so precisely, explain how there can be so
much deviation between planes regarding the number of shims required to make the
engine in line with the cowling. Also explain how the space between the
firewall and the spinner can vary between 39 1/2 inches to 40 inches and still
meet type design.
Bob, 43.13 also says you can paint the back of the prop (the face) with black
paint. Tain't so. The Sensenich TCDS specifically calls out Polane paint.
Painting the prop with anything else makes the prop not in compliance with type
design.
Bob, you wrote, "The method we used before Gary sent out his cowl was to align
the spinner with the factory cowling," What makes you think the factory cowling
was right?
Boris, the gap between the spinner and the cowling on all AA5x/AG5B airplanes is
up to 1 inch. Most are around 3/4 inches. Mine is 3/16. With 3/4 of an inch
gap, it really doesn't make a tinker's damn how square the engine is with the
cowling. Who's going to notice? With 3/16 inch gap, you'll notice.
Bob, you wrote " leaving it perhaps 3/8" high with new mounts, as they sag with
age, and in a few months they'd be allowing the spinner to align very closely
with the nose bowl." I'm sure that is your experience. However, I'm having
Travis send pictures of his spinner/cowling. I installed his engine in 2000
with new mounts, set up the way I set them, and it hasn't changed in 11 years.
Bob, I could argue with you and everyone else about the position of the engine
in flight and while maneuvering. But, what's the point? Believe what you want.
I designed the cowling to fit as closely as possible. During flight, there is
about 1/4 inch between the cowling and the alternator. Alter the alignment from
where I have it and all bets are off.
Boris, your best bet is to trim the cowling as I said, install it without any
muffler or baffles on your engine, and then align the engine to the cowling.
________________________________
From: b v <bvnj@yahoo.com>
<dave@hondahaven.com>; n76lima@mindspring.com
Cc: Barry Schulte <flyadive@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 7:28:00 PM
Subject: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 - engine thrust angle
Guys,
Please take a look. I wonder if you could please help me regarding the spacers
on engine mounts.
I just bought a set of new Lord engine mounts. The old bottom ones were leaking
and the spinner was sagging about 1/2 inch against the nose bowl rim. Now I have
placed 1 spacer on each(as it was before) and torqued it per manual, 40 lb-feet.
Before fitting the new cowl I tried the old one to check and found that engine
is now hanging a little high against the nose bowl and a little to the right.
Please take a look at the attached pictures.
My question is - should I try to add spacers to align the spinner to the old
cowl before I fit the new cowl, and if you think I should, then why? In other
words, why aligning to the old cowl would give me a better thrust angle then
relying on the angle provided by the engine mount together with the set of new
properly torqued Lord mounts?
Maybe I should try to measure the thrust angle?
Gary, I think you had a method of measuring up/down thrust angle. Could you
please remind me how you did it and what is the angle to aim for?
I guess the left/right angle could be checked by measuring the distance from
propeller tips to wings when prop is positioned horizontally. I guess one should
try to make sure they are equal. Or not?
Thank you,
-Boris
P.S. By the way, you have to remove the nose strut boot before fitting the new
cowl. You all probably know it, but if you don't want to cut it off, you have to
remove the nose strut. I think the installation instructions don't mention this.
Message 3
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| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IExvUHJlc3RpIEljZVNrYXRlc+KEog==? |
how about some pictures=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:
"arjays@AOL.COM" <arjays@AOL.COM>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0AS
ent: Tue, May 31, 2011 1:41:14 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: LoPresti Ice
=0A=0AHi Guys!=0AFirst, let me say how much I enjoyed the "gathering". Than
ks for allowing me to =0Aspout off my 2 cents about the extraordinary value
of the group and the way to =0Amake it grow. (My belief is we must make it
personal. Leave your own phone =0Anumber on every Grumman you see with an
invitation to call).=0A=0ASecond, I'm wildly pleased that everyone likes ou
r IceSkate design. You may know =0Athis is our #1 product for Cirrus Aircra
ft. Our design has a huge door for tire =0Apressure and inspection, a cooli
ng vent for the brakes, much lighter than stock =0A(not hard to do), reduce
d drag, carbon fiber construction, 1/4 turn fasteners =0Afor fast installat
ion and removal and an integrated strut fairing. (It's also =0Avery sexy. T
hat's a feature I don't take lightly. If it does not look really, =0Areally
cool, it offends our sense of design).=0A=0AThis is a trial balloon. I nee
d to know how many of us are interested. If the =0Agroup is large enough I
can do a product run which is more affordable than the =0ACirrus unit. The
Cirrus SR20 version of our IceSkates sell for $7495. If we can =0Aget a gro
up of 25 AA5's together we can make a deal for $5495 and if we can get =0A5
0 we can manufacture for $4495. The set will include all three pants, all t
hree =0Astrut fairings, all new hardware, all brackets and fasteners, etc.
It will be a =0Acertified STC product and can be installed and removed by t
he owner.=0A=0ASo. Let's start a dialog. Whatcha think?=0ARj Siegel CEO/Lo
=========================0A
=====
Message 4
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| Subject: | How about somw pics? |
In a message dated 5/31/11 4:57:35 PM, teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes:
> how about some pictures
>
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling exit ramp |
I just got a call from a friend who mentioned this post from Gary about my Jaguar
cowling. Really for the life of me I don't understand where you are coming
from Gary. I have absolutely no interest in manufacturing or competing on a cowling.
You've got to be kidding!
My exit ramps look exactly the same as your pictures Gary.
Let me say that again, My cowl is the same as yours; the pictures look EXACTLEY
the same.
I have made no modifications to the cowling.
I am doing a repair by adding length to the trailing edge of the cowling so that
it can be aligned with the prop spinner. I don't believe am making it any longer
than it was in its pre-trimmed state. I am just trying to get it properly
aligned to my Tiger. Again I have made no modifications.
If you had done a better job when you installed the cowling I would have had no
squawks. Why didn't you check the engine alignment as I ask you to do before
you installed the Jaguar? Would have saved a lot of grief.
As to why my engine ran rough remember posting this Gary: "As for the plug wires
not being tight, OOPs"
That's kinda how I was looking at the whole cowling experience with you
Gary....you just had a lot of oops...
But your making false accusations about me to the FAA puts this on a whole different
level. Do you really want to go to war over this?
I see the posts we put here last fall where we discussed the poor fitting of the
cowl have been removed. At least I cannot locate them here now. However, I do
have pictures of how it was installed and how it was a poor fit. I have a copy
of your emails wherein you agreed with me about this.
I'm sure my FSDO inspector will want to see all this information should it actually
go that far. Since you have made some kind of formal complaint to the FAA
perhaps I should as well?
Please let me know if you want to make something of this or if you will retract
your false assertions to the FAA
Gee Gary, I thought we were friends!
When I flew home from your place with the new Jaguar cowl I found that it did not
cool any better than the factory cowl and I posted this here. Later I found
your safety wire "springs" broken. These are supposed to hold the under cylinder
baffles together but they had broken and that is why it was not cooling better.
After I replaced the broken springs with heavier safety wire I found and
posted that the cowl did provide better cooling.
I would think you owe me the courtesy of at least a phone call or personal emails
before you go and make false reports to the FAA
But maybe I was wrong to assume we are friends?
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
Ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341650#341650
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| Subject: | Re: How about somw pics? |
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling exit ramp |
Ned,
If, as you say, your exit ramps look exactly like mine, why do you say shit like
"Try laying a straight edge on yours. I bet you'll find the same thing. If not
then my cowl really has a lot more defects than I thought." I really don't
understand what your problem with the exit ramp is (or was). The bottom of the
ramp is fabricated flat (with some curvature to conform to the cowling). The
cowling has it's own ramp. The two are faired together when they are joined.
It's pretty obvious.
Here we go again "If you had done a better job when you installed the cowling I
would have had no squawks. Why didn't you check the engine alignment as I ask
you to do before you installed the Jaguar? Would have saved a lot of grief."
OK, Ned, just what did you want me to align it to?
As I recall, you wanted this cowling done and installed in record time. To help
things along, to comply with your wishes, I used my plane to do all of the
initial fitting of the cowling. All of the work trimming was already done when
you got here. Your cowling fit great on my plane.
I jeopardized my relationship with the FAA in order to get your 3 blade prop
approved along with getting the airbox approved because I thought we were
friends. They wanted a complete flight test to show the 3 bladed prop had no
adverse interactions with the cowling. I called in a lot of favors and made a
lot of promises to get your plane approved and finished as quickly as I
did because I thought we were friends.
I can get the cowling painted anywhere for $500 or less. I deducted $1000 from
the installed price because you said you didn't want it painted. I gave you a
good deal because I thought we were friends. And then you pissed and moaned
about a $5 cam-loc you wanted replaced. And you wanted a different right
forward baffle so I gave you one. I gave you a baffle that cost me $35 to have
made. And then you had the balls to whine about a cam-loc? Seriously, getting
upset because you didn't get the $5 cam-loc you wanted????
And the ONLY thanks I got from you was a report saying I forgot to tighten the
plug leads (not, Gary was so stressed getting my plane back together that he
forgot to tighten the plug leads), the plane was slower, and you weren't happy
with the results. Then, on top of that, you wanted me to sell you another
cowling at cost.
Ned, nothing you've done or said since you left with the cowling has been or
sounded like something a friend of mine would have done.
In comparison, I have another customer who has gone out of his way to work with
me when he wanted something done. If I don't have his plane ready, he either
waits or comes over to help get another plane done so I can work on his. He has
bought me $100 bottles of single malt scotch on more than one occasion, brings
gifts for Clytie when he comes to pick up his plane, and gave me a $100 bonus
because he said I didn't charge enough for the time I put into his wheel pants.
In return, I sold him an eyebrow for $100, given him instrument panel overlays,
and he will be getting the cowling from my plane for $1000 when I get the new
one Dave is making for me. This customer has never asked for anything extra or
asked if I can sell something to him cheaper or asked for anything for free.
Unlike another customer of mine who comes in and loads up on bottled water from
my refrigerator (putting it in his plane while he waits for me to get the plane
out of the hangar), he's not a cheap bastard. He leaves $5 in the fridge if he
takes some water. I like working with him. He's honest and doesn't expect
something for nothing. I consider him my friend.
I never posted that I HAVE reported you to the FAA.
Gary
________________________________
From: discover <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 2:19:19 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ramp
I just got a call from a friend who mentioned this post from Gary about my
Jaguar cowling. Really for the life of me I don't understand where you are
coming from Gary. I have absolutely no interest in manufacturing or competing on
a cowling. You've got to be kidding!
My exit ramps look exactly the same as your pictures Gary.
Let me say that again, My cowl is the same as yours; the pictures look EXACTLEY
the same.
I have made no modifications to the cowling.
I am doing a repair by adding length to the trailing edge of the cowling so that
it can be aligned with the prop spinner. I don't believe am making it any longer
than it was in its pre-trimmed state. I am just trying to get it properly
aligned to my Tiger. Again I have made no modifications.
If you had done a better job when you installed the cowling I would have had no
squawks. Why didn't you check the engine alignment as I ask you to do before you
installed the Jaguar? Would have saved a lot of grief.
As to why my engine ran rough remember posting this Gary: "As for the plug wires
not being tight, OOPs"
That's kinda how I was looking at the whole cowling experience with you
Gary....you just had a lot of oops...
But your making false accusations about me to the FAA puts this on a whole
different level. Do you really want to go to war over this?
I see the posts we put here last fall where we discussed the poor fitting of the
cowl have been removed. At least I cannot locate them here now. However, I do
have pictures of how it was installed and how it was a poor fit. I have a copy
of your emails wherein you agreed with me about this.
I'm sure my FSDO inspector will want to see all this information should it
actually go that far. Since you have made some kind of formal complaint to the
FAA perhaps I should as well?
Please let me know if you want to make something of this or if you will retract
your false assertions to the FAA
Gee Gary, I thought we were friends!
When I flew home from your place with the new Jaguar cowl I found that it did
not cool any better than the factory cowl and I posted this here. Later I found
your safety wire "springs" broken. These are supposed to hold the under
cylinder baffles together but they had broken and that is why it was not cooling
better. After I replaced the broken springs with heavier safety wire I found and
posted that the cowl did provide better cooling.
I would think you owe me the courtesy of at least a phone call or personal
emails before you go and make false reports to the FAA
But maybe I was wrong to assume we are friends?
Your Fellow Grumman Enthusiast,
Ned
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341650#341650
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling exit ramp |
"I never posted that I HAVE reported you to the FAA.
Gary"
What exactly did you mean to communicate when you wrote the following in your post
that started this thread:
"I notified the FAA ACO and they have called the Oklahoma office. He will need
to re-certify the cowling if he decides to fly it."
Seemed pretty clear to those who informed me that you posted it. Seems clear to
me that you are now contradicting yourself. Care to clear it up?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341689#341689
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling exit ramp |
I don't know either one of you and I don't understand why I should be
interested in these personal vendettas between the two of you. Is this
really material for a public forum? It certainly does not add any value to
me as a Tiger owner. When I see certain posters on this list I usually
automatically hit the delete button without opening the email. Kinda like
dealing with spam.
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ramp
Ned,
If, as you say, your exit ramps look exactly like mine, why do you say shit
like "Try laying a straight edge on yours. I bet you'll find the same thing.
If not then my cowl really has a lot more defects than I thought." I really
don't understand what your problem with the exit ramp is (or was). The
bottom of the ramp is fabricated flat (with some curvature to conform to the
cowling). The cowling has it's own ramp. The two are faired together when
they are joined. It's pretty obvious.
Here we go again "If you had done a better job when you installed the
cowling I would have had no squawks. Why didn't you check the engine
alignment as I ask you to do before you installed the Jaguar? Would have
saved a lot of grief." OK, Ned, just what did you want me to align it to?
As I recall, you wanted this cowling done and installed in record time. To
help things along, to comply with your wishes, I used my plane to do all of
the initial fitting of the cowling. All of the work trimming was already
done when you got here. Your cowling fit great on my plane.
I jeopardized my relationship with the FAA in order to get your 3 blade prop
approved along with getting the airbox approved because I thought we were
friends. They wanted a complete flight test to show the 3 bladed prop had
no adverse interactions with the cowling. I called in a lot of favors and
made a lot of promises to get your plane approved and finished as quickly as
I did because I thought we were friends.
I can get the cowling painted anywhere for $500 or less. I deducted $1000
from the installed price because you said you didn't want it painted. I
gave you a good deal because I thought we were friends. And then you pissed
and moaned about a $5 cam-loc you wanted replaced. And you wanted a
different right forward baffle so I gave you one. I gave you a baffle that
cost me $35 to have made. And then you had the balls to whine about a
cam-loc? Seriously, getting upset because you didn't get the $5 cam-loc you
wanted????
And the ONLY thanks I got from you was a report saying I forgot to tighten
the plug leads (not, Gary was so stressed getting my plane back together
that he forgot to tighten the plug leads), the plane was slower, and you
weren't happy with the results. Then, on top of that, you wanted me to sell
you another cowling at cost.
Ned, nothing you've done or said since you left with the cowling has been or
sounded like something a friend of mine would have done.
In comparison, I have another customer who has gone out of his way to work
with me when he wanted something done. If I don't have his plane ready, he
either waits or comes over to help get another plane done so I can work on
his. He has bought me $100 bottles of single malt scotch on more than one
occasion, brings gifts for Clytie when he comes to pick up his plane, and
gave me a $100 bonus because he said I didn't charge enough for the time I
put into his wheel pants. In return, I sold him an eyebrow for $100, given
him instrument panel overlays, and he will be getting the cowling from my
plane for $1000 when I get the new one Dave is making for me. This customer
has never asked for anything extra or asked if I can sell something to him
cheaper or asked for anything for free. Unlike another customer of mine who
comes in and loads up on bottled water from my refrigerator (putting it in
his plane while he waits for me to get the plane out of the hangar), he's
not a cheap bastard. He leaves $5 in the fridge if he takes some water. I
like working with him. He's honest and doesn't expect something for
nothing. I consider him my friend.
I never posted that I HAVE reported you to the FAA.
Gary
_____
From: discover <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 2:19:19 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ramp
I just got a call from a friend who mentioned this post from Gary about my
Jaguar cowling. Really for the life of me I don't understand where you are
coming from Gary. I have absolutely no interest in manufacturing or
competing on a cowling. You've got to be kidding!
My exit ramps look exactly the same as your pictures Gary.
Let me say that again, My cowl is the same as yours; the pictures look
EXACTLEY the same.
I have made no modifications to the cowling.
I am doing a repair by adding length to the trailing edge of the cowling so
that it can be aligned with the prop spinner. I don't believe am making it
any longer than it was in its pre-trimmed state. I am just trying to get it
properly aligned to my Tiger. Again I have made no modifications.
If you had done a better job when you installed the cowling I would have had
no squawks. Why didn't you check the engine alignment as I ask you to do
before you installed the Jaguar? Would have saved a lot of grief.
As to why my engine ran rough remember posting this Gary: "As for the plug
wires not being tight, OOPs"
That's kinda how I was looking at the whole cowling experience with you
Gary....you just had a lot of oops...
But your making false accusations about me to the FAA puts this on a whole
different level. Do you really want to go to war over this?
I see the posts we put here last fall where we discussed the poor fitting of
the cowl have been removed. At least I cannot locate them here now. However,
I do have pictures of how it was installed and how it was a poor fit. I have
a copy of your emails wherein you agreed with me about this.
I'm sure my FSDO inspector will want to see all this information should it
actually go that far. Since you have made some kind of formal complaint to
the FAA perhaps I should as well?
Please let me know if you want to make something of this or if you will
retract your false assertions to the FAA
Gee Gary, I thought we were friends!
When I flew home from your place with the new Jaguar cowl I found that it
did not cool any better than the factory cowl and I posted this here. Later
I found your safety wire "springs" broken. These are supposed to hold the
under cylinder baffles together but they had broken and that is why it was
not cooling better. After I replaced the broken springs with heavier safety
wire I found and posted that the cowl did provide better cooling.
I would think you owe me the courtesy of at least a phone call or personal
emails before you go and make
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