Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:07 AM - Re: Re: Cooling exit ramp (Gary Vogt)
2. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Cooling exit ramp (Airport Bum)
3. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 - engine thrust angle (Gary Vogt)
4. 11:58 AM - AD 95-19-15 R1 and SB-185A (Gary Vogt)
5. 11:04 PM - Official TeamGrumman-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
6. 11:10 PM - Official TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling exit ramp |
agree=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Scott Boyce <t
scott165@cableone.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, Ma
y 31, 2011 8:55:54 PM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ram
p=0A=0A=0AI don=99t know either one of you and I don=99t unders
tand why I should be interested =0Ain these personal vendettas between the
two of you. Is this really material for =0Aa public forum? It certainly doe
s not add any value to me as a Tiger owner. =0AWhen I see certain posters
on this list I usually automatically hit the delete =0Abutton without openi
ng the email. Kinda like dealing with spam.=0A =0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-li
st-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.
com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0ASent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 9:27 PM=0ATo: tea
mgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling ex
it ramp=0A =0ANed,=0A =0AIf, as you say, your exit ramps look exactly like
mine, why do you say shit like =0A"Try laying a straight edge on yours. I b
et you'll find the same thing. If not =0Athen my cowl really has a lot more
defects than I thought." I really don't =0Aunderstand what your problem w
ith the exit ramp is (or was). The bottom of the =0Aramp is fabricated fla
t (with some curvature to conform to the cowling). The =0Acowling has it's
own ramp. The two are faired together when they are joined. =0A It's pret
ty obvious.=0A =0AHere we go again "If you had done a better job when you i
nstalled the cowling I =0Awould have had no squawks. Why didn't you check t
he engine alignment as I ask =0Ayou to do before you installed the Jaguar?
Would have saved a lot of grief." =0A OK, Ned, just what did you want me to
align it to? =0A =0AAs I recall, you wanted this cowling done and install
ed in record time. To help =0Athings along, to comply with your wishes, I
used my plane to do all of the =0Ainitial fitting of the cowling. All of t
he work trimming was already done when =0Ayou got here. Your cowling fit g
reat on my plane.=0A =0AI jeopardized my relationship with the FAA in order
to get your 3 blade prop =0Aapproved along with getting the airbox approve
d because I thought we were =0Afriends. They wanted a complete flight test
to show the 3 bladed prop had no =0Aadverse interactions with the cowling.
I called in a lot of favors and made a =0Alot of promises to get your pla
ne approved and finished as quickly as I =0Adid because I thought we were f
riends. =0A =0AI can get the cowling painted anywhere for $500 or less. I
deducted $1000 from =0Athe installed price because you said you didn't wan
t it painted. I gave you a =0Agood deal because I thought we were friends
. And then you pissed and moaned =0Aabout a $5 cam-loc you wanted replaced
. And you wanted a different right =0Aforward baffle so I gave you one. I
gave you a baffle that cost me $35 to have =0Amade. And then you had the
balls to whine about a cam-loc? Seriously, getting =0Aupset because you di
dn't get the $5 cam-loc you wanted????=0A =0AAnd the ONLY thanks I got from
you was a report saying I forgot to tighten the =0Aplug leads (not, Gary w
as so stressed getting my plane back together that he =0Aforgot to tighten
the plug leads), the plane was slower, and you weren't happy =0Awith the re
sults. Then, on top of that, you wanted me to sell you another =0Acowling
at cost. =0A =0ANed, nothing you've done or said since you left with the c
owling has been or =0Asounded like something a friend of mine would have do
ne. =0A =0AIn comparison, I have another customer who has gone out of his
way to work with =0Ame when he wanted something done. If I don't have his
plane ready, he either =0Awaits or comes over to help get another plane don
e so I can work on his. He has =0Abought me $100 bottles of single malt sc
otch on more than one occasion, brings =0Agifts for Clytie when he comes to
pick up his plane, and gave me a $100 bonus =0Abecause he said I didn't ch
arge enough for the time I put into his wheel pants. =0A In return, I sold
him an eyebrow for $100, given him instrument panel overlays, =0Aand he wil
l be getting the cowling from my plane for $1000 when I get the new =0Aone
Dave is making for me. This customer has never asked for anything extra or
=0Aasked if I can sell something to him cheaper or asked for anything for
free. =0A Unlike another customer of mine who comes in and loads up on bott
led water from =0Amy refrigerator (putting it in his plane while he waits f
or me to get the plane =0Aout of the hangar), he's not a cheap bastard. He
leaves $5 in the fridge if he =0Atakes some water. I like working with hi
m. He's honest and doesn't expect =0Asomething for nothing. I consider hi
m my friend.=0A =0AI never posted that I HAVE reported you to the FAA. =0A
=0AGary=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:discover <923t
e@att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, May 31, 2011 2
:19:19 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ramp=0A=0A--> TeamG
rumman-List message posted by: "discover" <923te@att.net>=0A=0AI just got a
call from a friend who mentioned this post from Gary about my =0AJaguar co
wling. Really for the life of me I don't understand where you are =0Acoming
from Gary. I have absolutely no interest in manufacturing or competing on
=0Aa cowling. You've got to be kidding!=0A=0AMy exit ramps look exactly the
same as your pictures Gary.=0ALet me say that again, My cowl is the same a
s yours; the pictures look EXACTLEY =0Athe same.=0A=0AI have made no modifi
cations to the cowling.=0A=0AI am doing a repair by adding length to the tr
ailing edge of the cowling so that =0Ait can be aligned with the prop spinn
er. I don't believe am making it any longer =0Athan it was in its pre-trimm
ed state. I am just trying to get it properly =0Aaligned to my Tiger. Again
I have made no modifications.=0A=0AIf you had done a better job when you i
nstalled the cowling I would have had no =0Asquawks. Why didn't you check t
he engine alignment as I ask you to do before you =0Ainstalled the Jaguar?
Would have saved a lot of grief.=0A=0AAs to why my engine ran rough remembe
r posting this Gary: "As for the plug wires =0Anot being tight, OOPs"=0A=0A
That's kinda how I was looking at the whole cowling experience with you=0AG
ary....you just had a lot of oops...=0A=0ABut your making false accusations
about me to the FAA puts this on a whole =0Adifferent level. Do you really
want to go to war over this?=0A=0AI see the posts we put here last fall wh
ere we discussed the poor fitting of the =0Acowl have been removed. At leas
t I cannot locate them here now. However, I do =0Ahave pictures of how it w
as installed and how it was a poor fit. I have a copy =0Aof your emails whe
rein you agreed with me about this.=0AI'm sure my FSDO inspector will want
to see all this information should it =0Aactually go that far. Since you ha
ve made some kind of formal complaint to the =0AFAA perhaps I should as wel
l? =0A=0A=0APlease let me know if you want to make something of this or if
you will retract =0Ayour false assertions to the FAA=0A=0AGee Gary, I thoug
ht we were friends!=0A =0AWhen I flew home from your place with the new Ja
guar cowl I found that it did =0Anot cool any better than the factory cowl
and I posted this here. Later I found =0Ayour safety wire "springs" broken.
These are supposed to hold the under =0Acylinder baffles together but the
y had broken and that is why it was not cooling =0Abetter. After I replaced
the broken springs with heavier safety wire I found and =0Aposted that the
cowl did provide better cooling.=0A=0AI would think you owe me the courtes
y of at least a phone call or personal =0Aemails before you go and make =0A
=0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Ahttp://f
============== =0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling exit ramp |
Actually I know both parties and I'm interested in the discussion.
This is an interesting new product in a very tough market. Anytime a new product
comes the market it's bound to have growing pains. What makes the difference
is how the vender handles the issue. I also think it's important to see
customer feedback.
Gary can be flowery and dramatic sometimes that's just his style. Net is a good
guy, if a little high strung sometimes. At the end of the day they are both
good guys, I hope they work it out and everyone goes home happy.
This is an open forum unlike the Levy gang where you get to hear Ron's opinion
on everything weather you ask for it or not.
Kevin
Scott Boyce <tscott165@cableone.net> wrote:
>I don't know either one of you and I don't understand why I should be
>interested in these personal vendettas between the two of you. Is this
>really material for a public forum? It certainly does not add any value to
>me as a Tiger owner. When I see certain posters on this list I usually
>automatically hit the delete button without opening the email. Kinda like
>dealing with spam.
>
>
>
>From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 9:27 PM
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ramp
>
>
>
>Ned,
>
>
>
>If, as you say, your exit ramps look exactly like mine, why do you say shit
>like "Try laying a straight edge on yours. I bet you'll find the same thing.
>If not then my cowl really has a lot more defects than I thought." I really
>don't understand what your problem with the exit ramp is (or was). The
>bottom of the ramp is fabricated flat (with some curvature to conform to the
>cowling). The cowling has it's own ramp. The two are faired together when
>they are joined. It's pretty obvious.
>
>
>
>Here we go again "If you had done a better job when you installed the
>cowling I would have had no squawks. Why didn't you check the engine
>alignment as I ask you to do before you installed the Jaguar? Would have
>saved a lot of grief." OK, Ned, just what did you want me to align it to?
>
>
>
>As I recall, you wanted this cowling done and installed in record time. To
>help things along, to comply with your wishes, I used my plane to do all of
>the initial fitting of the cowling. All of the work trimming was already
>done when you got here. Your cowling fit great on my plane.
>
>
>
>I jeopardized my relationship with the FAA in order to get your 3 blade prop
>approved along with getting the airbox approved because I thought we were
>friends. They wanted a complete flight test to show the 3 bladed prop had
>no adverse interactions with the cowling. I called in a lot of favors and
>made a lot of promises to get your plane approved and finished as quickly as
>I did because I thought we were friends.
>
>
>
>I can get the cowling painted anywhere for $500 or less. I deducted $1000
>from the installed price because you said you didn't want it painted. I
>gave you a good deal because I thought we were friends. And then you pissed
>and moaned about a $5 cam-loc you wanted replaced. And you wanted a
>different right forward baffle so I gave you one. I gave you a baffle that
>cost me $35 to have made. And then you had the balls to whine about a
>cam-loc? Seriously, getting upset because you didn't get the $5 cam-loc you
>wanted????
>
>
>
>And the ONLY thanks I got from you was a report saying I forgot to tighten
>the plug leads (not, Gary was so stressed getting my plane back together
>that he forgot to tighten the plug leads), the plane was slower, and you
>weren't happy with the results. Then, on top of that, you wanted me to sell
>you another cowling at cost.
>
>
>
>Ned, nothing you've done or said since you left with the cowling has been or
>sounded like something a friend of mine would have done.
>
>
>
>In comparison, I have another customer who has gone out of his way to work
>with me when he wanted something done. If I don't have his plane ready, he
>either waits or comes over to help get another plane done so I can work on
>his. He has bought me $100 bottles of single malt scotch on more than one
>occasion, brings gifts for Clytie when he comes to pick up his plane, and
>gave me a $100 bonus because he said I didn't charge enough for the time I
>put into his wheel pants. In return, I sold him an eyebrow for $100, given
>him instrument panel overlays, and he will be getting the cowling from my
>plane for $1000 when I get the new one Dave is making for me. This customer
>has never asked for anything extra or asked if I can sell something to him
>cheaper or asked for anything for free. Unlike another customer of mine who
>comes in and loads up on bottled water from my refrigerator (putting it in
>his plane while he waits for me to get the plane out of the hangar), he's
>not a cheap bastard. He leaves $5 in the fridge if he takes some water. I
>like working with him. He's honest and doesn't expect something for
>nothing. I consider him my friend.
>
>
>
>I never posted that I HAVE reported you to the FAA.
>
>
>
>Gary
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: discover <923te@att.net>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 2:19:19 PM
>Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Cooling exit ramp
>
>
>I just got a call from a friend who mentioned this post from Gary about my
>Jaguar cowling. Really for the life of me I don't understand where you are
>coming from Gary. I have absolutely no interest in manufacturing or
>competing on a cowling. You've got to be kidding!
>
>My exit ramps look exactly the same as your pictures Gary.
>Let me say that again, My cowl is the same as yours; the pictures look
>EXACTLEY the same.
>
>I have made no modifications to the cowling.
>
>I am doing a repair by adding length to the trailing edge of the cowling so
>that it can be aligned with the prop spinner. I don't believe am making it
>any longer than it was in its pre-trimmed state. I am just trying to get it
>properly aligned to my Tiger. Again I have made no modifications.
>
>If you had done a better job when you installed the cowling I would have had
>no squawks. Why didn't you check the engine alignment as I ask you to do
>before you installed the Jaguar? Would have saved a lot of grief.
>
>As to why my engine ran rough remember posting this Gary: "As for the plug
>wires not being tight, OOPs"
>
>That's kinda how I was looking at the whole cowling experience with you
>Gary....you just had a lot of oops...
>
>But your making false accusations about me to the FAA puts this on a whole
>different level. Do you really want to go to war over this?
>
>I see the posts we put here last fall where we discussed the poor fitting of
>the cowl have been removed. At least I cannot locate them here now. However,
>I do have pictures of how it was installed and how it was a poor fit. I have
>a copy of your emails wherein you agreed with me about this.
>I'm sure my FSDO inspector will want to see all this information should it
>actually go that far. Since you have made some kind of formal complaint to
>the FAA perhaps I should as well?
>
>Please let me know if you want to make something of this or if you will
>retract your false assertions to the FAA
>
>Gee Gary, I thought we were friends!
>
>When I flew home from your place with the new Jaguar cowl I found that it
>did not cool any better than the factory cowl and I posted this here. Later
>I found your safety wire "springs" broken. These are supposed to hold the
>under cylinder baffles together but they had broken and that is why it was
>not cooling better. After I replaced the broken springs with heavier safety
>wire I found and posted that the cowl did provide better cooling.
>
>I would think you owe me the courtesy of at least a phone call or personal
>emails before you go and make
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 |
- engine thrust angle
One other thing I want to add: Not all planes will require resetting the engine
alignment to the cowling.
The plane from which I made the tooling had one shim per mount. My plane has 2
on the upper right. I have interchanged the two cowlings without needing to
realign. I also put my cowling on a 73 Traveler to see what the interference
problems might be with the airbox. That one lined up too with one shim in each
location.
I tried off and on for 5 years to get some data regarding engine alignment. I
knew it would be an issue because so many are so different. I have a total of
10 responses from 'the field' plus 20 or so that I have looked at. There is no
one combination that always works.
Maybe Kevin can shed a little light on this and tell us what the drawings say
about engine down thrust angle. "IF" the drawings say anything at all.
On another note, Bob correctly stated that engine alignment affects flying
characteristics. I had a customer come in with the engine clearly offset to the
left. He had had a new engine installed and the FBO just put a single shim on
each mount. I asked him about the offset and he told me the FBO said that is
the way the engine is supposed to be aligned to the airplane. I convinced him
to install an additional shim on each left mount. This brought the engine in
alignment with the cowling. After the annual, we went flying. The customer
complained that he never had to use so much rudder to keep the ball centered and
that it was because of the shims moving the engine over. I attempted to adjust
out the rudder trim using the rudder trim tab to see if he found the difference
acceptable. Bottom line was, he wanted the shims removed. That was in 2004.
To this day, he's happy with the engine being offset with respect to the
cowling.
In 1998, George Ismael from Rosemond, just North of Lancaster, had a new engine
installed in his Tiger by an FBO in Mojave. They put the engine mounts in with
the soft side toward the front on all mounts. His engine was about 3/8 inch
above the cowling. I tried to convince him they'd installed the bottom mounts
wrong but he was happy with that too.
________________________________
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 1:51:59 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 -
engine thrust angle
Bob, you are always so wordy.
Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's not get your panties all in a bunch over this engine
alignment.
Boris (or whoever is interested) get on the internet and find a digital level.
Find one good to .5 degrees. Now, go out and measure the engine down thrust
angle every AA5, AA5A, AA5B, AG5B you see. Measure at the canopy rails, and
measure across the rocker boxes. You will likely find, as I have, that the down
thrust angle varies between 1.5 and 7.5 degrees down. I had a new customer come
in with 1 degree up but his engine was obviously wrong (WRT the cowling).
Bob, if the engine down thrust angle were that critical, we'd be given
directions on how to keep safe.
Bob, if the factory set up the planes so precisely, explain how there can be so
much deviation between planes regarding the number of shims required to make
the engine in line with the cowling. Also explain how the space between the
firewall and the spinner can vary between 39 1/2 inches to 40 inches and still
meet type design.
Bob, 43.13 also says you can paint the back of the prop (the face) with black
paint. Tain't so. The Sensenich TCDS specifically calls out Polane paint.
Painting the prop with anything else makes the prop not in compliance with type
design.
Bob, you wrote, "The method we used before Gary sent out his cowl was to align
the spinner with the factory cowling," What makes you think the factory cowling
was right?
Boris, the gap between the spinner and the cowling on all AA5x/AG5B airplanes is
up to 1 inch. Most are around 3/4 inches. Mine is 3/16. With 3/4 of an inch
gap, it really doesn't make a tinker's damn how square the engine is with the
cowling. Who's going to notice? With 3/16 inch gap, you'll notice.
Bob, you wrote " leaving it perhaps 3/8" high with new mounts, as they sag with
age, and in a few months they'd be allowing the spinner to align very closely
with the nose bowl." I'm sure that is your experience. However, I'm having
Travis send pictures of his spinner/cowling. I installed his engine in 2000
with new mounts, set up the way I set them, and it hasn't changed in 11 years.
Bob, I could argue with you and everyone else about the position of the engine
in flight and while maneuvering. But, what's the point? Believe what you want.
I designed the cowling to fit as closely as possible. During flight, there is
about 1/4 inch between the cowling and the alternator. Alter the alignment from
where I have it and all bets are off.
Boris, your best bet is to trim the cowling as I said, install it without any
muffler or baffles on your engine, and then align the engine to the cowling.
________________________________
From: b v <bvnj@yahoo.com>
<dave@hondahaven.com>; n76lima@mindspring.com
Cc: Barry Schulte <flyadive@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, May 29, 2011 7:28:00 PM
Subject: Jaguar Cowling installation questions Part 3 - engine thrust angle
Guys,
Please take a look. I wonder if you could please help me regarding the spacers
on engine mounts.
I just bought a set of new Lord engine mounts. The old bottom ones were leaking
and the spinner was sagging about 1/2 inch against the nose bowl rim. Now I have
placed 1 spacer on each(as it was before) and torqued it per manual, 40 lb-feet.
Before fitting the new cowl I tried the old one to check and found that engine
is now hanging a little high against the nose bowl and a little to the right.
Please take a look at the attached pictures.
My question is - should I try to add spacers to align the spinner to the old
cowl before I fit the new cowl, and if you think I should, then why? In other
words, why aligning to the old cowl would give me a better thrust angle then
relying on the angle provided by the engine mount together with the set of new
properly torqued Lord mounts?
Maybe I should try to measure the thrust angle?
Gary, I think you had a method of measuring up/down thrust angle. Could you
please remind me how you did it and what is the angle to aim for?
I guess the left/right angle could be checked by measuring the distance from
propeller tips to wings when prop is positioned horizontally. I guess one should
try to make sure they are equal. Or not?
Thank you,
-Boris
P.S. By the way, you have to remove the nose strut boot before fitting the new
cowl. You all probably know it, but if you don't want to cut it off, you have to
remove the nose strut. I think the installation instructions don't mention this.
Message 4
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| Subject: | AD 95-19-15 R1 and SB-185A |
Ok, so, which has precedence?=0A=0AAD 95-19-15 R1 is non-recurring. (Withi
n the next 100 hours aircraft =0Atime-in-service (TIS) after November 17, 1
995 (the effective date of AD =0A95=9319=9315), unless already
done)=0ASB-185A says each 500 hours.=0A=0AHowever: The compliance portion
of the AD never references SB-185. The only =0Areference relative to SB-1
85 is for procedures regarding inspection and repair.=0A=0AADs, especially
this one, are really poorly written.
Message 5
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is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "teamgrumman-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the TeamGrumman-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the TeamGrumman-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/teamgrumman-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all TeamGrumman-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the TeamGrumman-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* TeamGrumman-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the TeamGrumman-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the TeamGrumman-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the TeamGrumman-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?TeamGrumman
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the TeamGrumman-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the TeamGrumman-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
TeamGrumman-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the TeamGrumman-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
TeamGrumman-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/TeamGrumman-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
TeamGrumman-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the TeamGrumman-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the TeamGrumman-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
TeamGrumman-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the TeamGrumman-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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