Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:04 AM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary L Vogt)
2. 10:16 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt)
3. 10:48 AM - Jaguar baffles (Gary Vogt)
4. 11:05 AM - pics and studs (Gary Vogt)
5. 11:44 AM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (flyv35b)
6. 12:15 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
7. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Hosler, John)
8. 01:44 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt)
9. 01:45 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt)
10. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt)
11. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Hosler, John)
12. 02:45 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
Oh, sorry. The Challenger (which is a K&N E1000 from a slant 6 Dodge) fits fairly
well. Without something to keep it round, it distorts when installed. K&N supplies
a grease to seal the surfaces to the air box.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 4, 2011, at 8:05 PM, b v <bvnj@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining:
>
> 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David Fletcher calls
"pie pans"?
> 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse the old
ones from Brakett filter?
> 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in
> 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to 79 Tiger?
What is your experience? A little tight squeeze or a horrible struggle every
time?
>
> (http://media.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20installation%20in%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3783-1.jpg?o=1)
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
Hi Bill,
I have the filter from my plane that you can use. Come on down. I'd like to
know if you see what I saw on the temps. It would be better if the K&N had
something to keep it round.
Gary
________________________________
From: "BILL9725@AOL.COM" <BILL9725@AOL.COM>
Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 12:16:41 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
Hi Gary
I do have a JIP 4 cylinder and did run some tests on it when we put the new
engine in, but don`t have the data anymore, best I could remember was the CHT
went up on all cylinders, but EGT went down, I assumed due to different flow
patterns. But a note here also installed a fine mixture adjustment then and that
may have contributed to the different patterns also. You have a good idea and
I will see if I still have the original filter in Hanger and if so will do some
tests. Best I could saw was with original motor, 2200 hrs, it ran a lot
stronger with the Bracket, but no JIP then so hard to say.
Will have to do some new tests just for fun though, do you have a stock filter
lying around in case I discarded my old one. Great reason for visiting Auburn
again.
Thanks
Bill
In a message dated 7/4/2011 11:44:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
>Bill,
>
>
>If you have a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT, particularly a fast responding JPI, if you
>could, get a stock air filter and do some independent testing on the filters.
>
>
>Gary
>
>
________________________________
From: "BILL9725@AOL.COM" <BILL9725@AOL.COM>
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 11:06:24 AM
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
>
>Hi
>
>I have been using a Challenger filter on my Tiger (75), for last 4 years and
>it does make a difference, as Gary says, mileage does vary, but on a run-out
>0 360 it raised the full throttle ceiling from 8000 per the manual to closer
>to 9000 ft on the same day so it does breath better. As a long time user of
>the same filters in my car, Flow master, they do actually give more air
>volume, and also as Gary says probably make the unbalance of our intake even
>worse! On a new 0 360 I can say that the Challenger may even help more, even
>at 14,000 it still has throttle left. Of course when I can afford Gary`s
>wonder I will be in heaven!
>
>
>Bill
>
>In a message dated 7/3/2011 10:34:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>bvnj@yahoo.com writes:
>Guys,
>>
>>My Brakett air filter bottom pie pan has several holes in it. Please see
>>the picture. They don't make sense to me because I think that they let
>>unfiltered air into the carb. Are those holes supposed to be there? Why?
>>
>>A related subject. Is challenger filter installed with pie pans? Does it
>>come with it's own pans or is one supposed to reuse the original ones? Does
>>anybody have experience with challenger on 78 tiger? It looks like it may
>>not be a good fit:
>>
>>http://m831.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3783-1.jpg.html?o=0
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Thank you,
>>Boris.
>>
>>On Jul 2, 2011, at 2:22 PM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gary,
>>>
>>> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe
>>>shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh
>>>air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air
is
>>>too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even
>>>windshield.
>>>
>>> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you
>>>been connecting it to?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> -Boris
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution===========
>>
>>
Message 3
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I took a bunch of pics yesterday. After taking the pics I realized it would
have been better to have the left inner baffle in place. Oh, well. It's close.
As you can see, from a bird's eye view, the baffles line up pretty well. The
left inner (on the right side of the pics adjacent to the engine) fits more
parallel to the engine. There is no hardware holding any of this in place.
Boris, I appreciate, more than you know, your questions and attention to
detail.
Gary
Message 4
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I posted the pics on the AuCountry Facebook page.
Regarding the studs that pulled through: I have a whole bunch of studs from the
wrecked 79 Tiger. I cleaned them up and looked at the attachment very closely.
They look like they are brazed in place. In contrast, the studs that pulled
through look to be stamped. Obviously a cheaper alternative. Let all your
friends and family flying the later planes know they need to inspect the studs
at every annual. Trust me, they will be easier to replace before they fail.
After they fail, the stud turns when trying to back off the nuts. You'll need
to use a Dremel with a very worn off cutting wheel to get into the hole to cut
a
slot for a screw driver. Then, you'll need a helper to remove the nuts while
you hold the stud with a screw driver. Takes about 2 hours.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some.
How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing
would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic
securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air
outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air
mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better
to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot
air that burns your feet etc.
Cliff
On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud
and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do
you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and
it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield.
> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been
connecting it to?
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air inlet to
the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hole is all
that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the teens F.
Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as much as
it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enough to see
the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the
overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It also keeps the
exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increase scavenging
in the powerflow tuned exhaust
Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded really
hot air?
Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet
to the muffler.
Carb heat was unaffected
It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
YMMV
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much
I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been
easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the
engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers)
from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
>
> An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing
with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot
of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your
feet etc.
>
> Cliff
>
> On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
>>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud
and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do
you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and
it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield.
>> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been
connecting it to?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> -Boris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter
centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)?
Does anyone know?
I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and
back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems
it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the
carburetor.
Is this really the origial design?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
allenc3@bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but
do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the
airbox.
Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart.
Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a
Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will
work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.!
--------------------------------------------------
From: "b v" <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
>
> Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining:
>
> 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David
> Fletcher calls "pie pans"?
> 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse
> the old ones from Brakett filter?
> 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in
> 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to
> 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze or a
> horrible struggle every time?
>
> (http://media.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20installation%2
> 0in%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3
> 783-1.jpg?o=1)
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature database 6120 (20110513) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>
>
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 6120 (20110513) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
With the Jaguar cowling, the fresh air for the muffler is in front of the #1
cylinder. It's pressurized air flow as opposed to the static air flow on the
stock cowling. An argument could be made that the 1" duct is designed to create
airflow through the muffler.
________________________________
From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 11:41:16 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line
The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some.
How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing
would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic
securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air
outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air
mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better
to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot
air that burns your feet etc.
Cliff
On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud
>and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you
>know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it
>could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield.
> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been
>connecting it to?
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
Thanks for the info Ned. This means I could significantly reduce the size of
the duct in front of #1.
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:12:23 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line
Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air inlet to
the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hole is all
that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the teens F.
Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as much as
it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enough to see
the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the
overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It also keeps the
exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increase scavenging in
the powerflow tuned exhaust
Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded
really hot air?
Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet
to the muffler.
Carb heat was unaffected
It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
YMMV
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much
I
>don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been
>easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the
>engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers)
>from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
>
> An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing
>with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot
of
>warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your feet
>etc.
>
> Cliff
>
> On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
>>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud
>>and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you
>>know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it
>>could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield.
>> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been
>>connecting it to?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> -Boris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
John,
By design, there should be a block on the bottom of the airbox which holds the
air filter up. There should be a tab at the outer most corner up inside the
airbox. There is a deflector plate at the inlet which holds it to the center.
On N28840, I replaced the tab with a stainless steel tube, held in place with a
1/4 inch bolt.
The design of the airbox allows the filter to move around a lot. It's a shitty
design from the point of wear and tear. Just the vibration alone wears holes in
the pie tins around the parameter. Over the years I've tried a number of things
to keep the filter in my Tiger from eating itself. Right now I have two blocks
in the bottom in an attempt to keep the filter from moving too much. It helps,
but not a lot.
What about a redesigned airbox with an opening on top to drop the filter in?
________________________________
From: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER@epri.com>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:39:08 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter
centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)?
Does anyone know?
I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and
back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems
it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the
carburetor.
Is this really the origial design?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
allenc3@bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but
do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the
airbox.
Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart.
Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a
Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will
work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.!
--------------------------------------------------
From: "b v" <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
>
> Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining:
>
> 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David
> Fletcher calls "pie pans"?
> 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse
> the old ones from Brakett filter?
> 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in
> 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to
> 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze or a
> horrible struggle every time?
>
> (http://media.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20installation%2
> 0in%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3
> 783-1.jpg?o=1)
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
> signature database 6120 (20110513) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>
>
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
signature database 6120 (20110513) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
Gary:
Years ago I tried a block at the bottom but the filter machined itself
into it.
The world could use an improved design.
(I note there is a hole at the back of the airbox that could be used to
secure the filter (with a bolt if a nut were welded on to the air filter
pie pan).
John
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
John,
By design, there should be a block on the bottom of the airbox which
holds the air filter up. There should be a tab at the outer most corner
up inside the airbox. There is a deflector plate at the inlet which
holds it to the center.
On N28840, I replaced the tab with a stainless steel tube, held in place
with a 1/4 inch bolt.
The design of the airbox allows the filter to move around a lot. It's a
shitty design from the point of wear and tear. Just the vibration alone
wears holes in the pie tins around the parameter. Over the years I've
tried a number of things to keep the filter in my Tiger from eating
itself. Right now I have two blocks in the bottom in an attempt to keep
the filter from moving too much. It helps, but not a lot.
What about a redesigned airbox with an opening on top to drop the filter
in?
________________________________
From: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER@epri.com>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:39:08 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
<JHOSLER@epri.com>
So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter
centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)?
Does anyone know?
I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and
back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems
it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the
carburetor.
Is this really the origial design?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
allenc3@bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but
do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the
airbox.
Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart.
Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a
Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will
work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.!
--------------------------------------------------
From: "b v" <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
>
> Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining:
>
> 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David
> Fletcher calls "pie pans"?
> 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse
> the old ones from Brakett filter?
> 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in
> 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to
> 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
I'm not convinced the duct is even needed. Seems to me that the air in the l
ower cowl is "fresh" enough. It was fresh enough for VW to use in millions o
f bugs and some Corvairs. Only smelled bad when the cylinders were either b
rand new or really old ;)
I don't get why my PF muffler is open ended next to the carb heat intake. T
hat just allows mostly lower cowl air for carb heat instead of mostly hot ai
r off the exhaust pipes thru the 'box'
Didn't your test show PF has an issue providing enough heat for the required
rise?
>
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