---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/05/11: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:04 AM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary L Vogt) 2. 10:16 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt) 3. 10:48 AM - Jaguar baffles (Gary Vogt) 4. 11:05 AM - pics and studs (Gary Vogt) 5. 11:44 AM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (flyv35b) 6. 12:15 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) 7. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Hosler, John) 8. 01:44 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt) 9. 01:45 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt) 10. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt) 11. 02:02 PM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Hosler, John) 12. 02:45 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:28 AM PST US From: Gary L Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes Oh, sorry. The Challenger (which is a K&N E1000 from a slant 6 Dodge) fits fairly well. Without something to keep it round, it distorts when installed. K&N supplies a grease to seal the surfaces to the air box. Gary Sent from my iPad On Jul 4, 2011, at 8:05 PM, b v wrote: > > Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining: > > 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David Fletcher calls "pie pans"? > 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse the old ones from Brakett filter? > 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in > 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze or a horrible struggle every time? > > (http://media.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20installation%20in%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3783-1.jpg?o=1) > > Thank you, > -Boris > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:24 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes Hi Bill, I have the filter from my plane that you can use. Come on down. I'd like to know if you see what I saw on the temps. It would be better if the K&N had something to keep it round. Gary ________________________________ From: "BILL9725@AOL.COM" Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 12:16:41 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes Hi Gary I do have a JIP 4 cylinder and did run some tests on it when we put the new engine in, but don`t have the data anymore, best I could remember was the CHT went up on all cylinders, but EGT went down, I assumed due to different flow patterns. But a note here also installed a fine mixture adjustment then and that may have contributed to the different patterns also. You have a good idea and I will see if I still have the original filter in Hanger and if so will do some tests. Best I could saw was with original motor, 2200 hrs, it ran a lot stronger with the Bracket, but no JIP then so hard to say. Will have to do some new tests just for fun though, do you have a stock filter lying around in case I discarded my old one. Great reason for visiting Auburn again. Thanks Bill In a message dated 7/4/2011 11:44:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes: > > >Bill, > > >If you have a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT, particularly a fast responding JPI, if you >could, get a stock air filter and do some independent testing on the filters. > > >Gary > > ________________________________ From: "BILL9725@AOL.COM" >To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 11:06:24 AM >Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes > >Hi > >I have been using a Challenger filter on my Tiger (75), for last 4 years and >it does make a difference, as Gary says, mileage does vary, but on a run-out >0 360 it raised the full throttle ceiling from 8000 per the manual to closer >to 9000 ft on the same day so it does breath better. As a long time user of >the same filters in my car, Flow master, they do actually give more air >volume, and also as Gary says probably make the unbalance of our intake even >worse! On a new 0 360 I can say that the Challenger may even help more, even >at 14,000 it still has throttle left. Of course when I can afford Gary`s >wonder I will be in heaven! > > >Bill > >In a message dated 7/3/2011 10:34:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >bvnj@yahoo.com writes: >Guys, >> >>My Brakett air filter bottom pie pan has several holes in it. Please see >>the picture. They don't make sense to me because I think that they let >>unfiltered air into the carb. Are those holes supposed to be there? Why? >> >>A related subject. Is challenger filter installed with pie pans? Does it >>come with it's own pans or is one supposed to reuse the original ones? Does >>anybody have experience with challenger on 78 tiger? It looks like it may >>not be a good fit: >> >>http://m831.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3783-1.jpg.html?o=0 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Thank you, >>Boris. >> >>On Jul 2, 2011, at 2:22 PM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>> Hi Gary, >>> >>> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe >>>shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh >>>air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is >>>too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even >>>windshield. >>> >>> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you >>>been connecting it to? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> -Boris >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=========== >> >> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:48:42 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar baffles I took a bunch of pics yesterday. After taking the pics I realized it would have been better to have the left inner baffle in place. Oh, well. It's close. As you can see, from a bird's eye view, the baffles line up pretty well. The left inner (on the right side of the pics adjacent to the engine) fits more parallel to the engine. There is no hardware holding any of this in place. Boris, I appreciate, more than you know, your questions and attention to detail. Gary ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:34 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: TeamGrumman-List: pics and studs I posted the pics on the AuCountry Facebook page. Regarding the studs that pulled through: I have a whole bunch of studs from the wrecked 79 Tiger. I cleaned them up and looked at the attachment very closely. They look like they are brazed in place. In contrast, the studs that pulled through look to be stamped. Obviously a cheaper alternative. Let all your friends and family flying the later planes know they need to inspect the studs at every annual. Trust me, they will be easier to replace before they fail. After they fail, the stud turns when trying to back off the nuts. You'll need to use a Dremel with a very worn off cutting wheel to get into the hole to cut a slot for a screw driver. Then, you'll need a helper to remove the nuts while you hold the stud with a screw driver. Takes about 2 hours. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:37 AM PST US From: flyv35b Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your feet etc. Cliff On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com > > Hi Gary, > > My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield. > I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been connecting it to? > > Thank you, > -Boris > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:41 PM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the teens F. Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded really hot air? Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet to the muffler. Carb heat was unaffected It is a simple to do for many benefits..... YMMV Ned Sent from my iPhone On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. > > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your feet etc. > > Cliff > > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com >> >> Hi Gary, >> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield. >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been connecting it to? >> >> Thank you, >> -Boris >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes From: "Hosler, John" So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)? Does anyone know? I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the carburetor. Is this really the origial design? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of allenc3@bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the airbox. Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart. Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.! -------------------------------------------------- From: "b v" Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes > > Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining: > > 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David > Fletcher calls "pie pans"? > 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse > the old ones from Brakett filter? > 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in > 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to > 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze or a > horrible struggle every time? > > (http://media.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20installation%2 > 0in%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3 > 783-1.jpg?o=1) > > Thank you, > -Boris > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 6120 (20110513) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6120 (20110513) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:37 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line With the Jaguar cowling, the fresh air for the muffler is in front of the #1 cylinder. It's pressurized air flow as opposed to the static air flow on the stock cowling. An argument could be made that the 1" duct is designed to create airflow through the muffler. ________________________________ From: flyv35b Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 11:41:16 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your feet etc. Cliff On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com > > Hi Gary, > > My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud >and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you >know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it >could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield. > I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been >connecting it to? > > Thank you, > -Boris > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:45 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line Thanks for the info Ned. This means I could significantly reduce the size of the duct in front of #1. ________________________________ From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:12:23 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the teens F. Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded really hot air? Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet to the muffler. Carb heat was unaffected It is a simple to do for many benefits..... YMMV Ned Sent from my iPhone On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I >don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been >easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the >engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) >from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. > > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing >with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot of >warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your feet >etc. > > Cliff > > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com >> >> Hi Gary, >> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud >>and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you >>know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it >>could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield. >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been >>connecting it to? >> >> Thank you, >> -Boris >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:03 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes John, By design, there should be a block on the bottom of the airbox which holds the air filter up. There should be a tab at the outer most corner up inside the airbox. There is a deflector plate at the inlet which holds it to the center. On N28840, I replaced the tab with a stainless steel tube, held in place with a 1/4 inch bolt. The design of the airbox allows the filter to move around a lot. It's a shitty design from the point of wear and tear. Just the vibration alone wears holes in the pie tins around the parameter. Over the years I've tried a number of things to keep the filter in my Tiger from eating itself. Right now I have two blocks in the bottom in an attempt to keep the filter from moving too much. It helps, but not a lot. What about a redesigned airbox with an opening on top to drop the filter in? ________________________________ From: "Hosler, John" Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:39:08 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)? Does anyone know? I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the carburetor. Is this really the origial design? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of allenc3@bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the airbox. Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart. Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.! -------------------------------------------------- From: "b v" Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes > > Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining: > > 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David > Fletcher calls "pie pans"? > 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse > the old ones from Brakett filter? > 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in > 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to > 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze or a > horrible struggle every time? > > (http://media.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20installation%2 > 0in%20tiger/airmaster1/Challenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3 > 783-1.jpg?o=1) > > Thank you, > -Boris > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 6120 (20110513) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 6120 (20110513) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:49 PM PST US Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes From: "Hosler, John" Gary: Years ago I tried a block at the bottom but the filter machined itself into it. The world could use an improved design. (I note there is a hole at the back of the airbox that could be used to secure the filter (with a bolt if a nut were welded on to the air filter pie pan). John ________________________________ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 4:49 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes John, By design, there should be a block on the bottom of the airbox which holds the air filter up. There should be a tab at the outer most corner up inside the airbox. There is a deflector plate at the inlet which holds it to the center. On N28840, I replaced the tab with a stainless steel tube, held in place with a 1/4 inch bolt. The design of the airbox allows the filter to move around a lot. It's a shitty design from the point of wear and tear. Just the vibration alone wears holes in the pie tins around the parameter. Over the years I've tried a number of things to keep the filter in my Tiger from eating itself. Right now I have two blocks in the bottom in an attempt to keep the filter from moving too much. It helps, but not a lot. What about a redesigned airbox with an opening on top to drop the filter in? ________________________________ From: "Hosler, John" Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:39:08 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)? Does anyone know? I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the carburetor. Is this really the origial design? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of allenc3@bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the airbox. Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart. Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.! -------------------------------------------------- From: "b v" Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes > > Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining: > > 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David > Fletcher calls "pie pans"? > 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse > the old ones from Brakett filter? > 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in > 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to > 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:30 PM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line I'm not convinced the duct is even needed. Seems to me that the air in the l ower cowl is "fresh" enough. It was fresh enough for VW to use in millions o f bugs and some Corvairs. Only smelled bad when the cylinders were either b rand new or really old ;) I don't get why my PF muffler is open ended next to the carb heat intake. T hat just allows mostly lower cowl air for carb heat instead of mostly hot ai r off the exhaust pipes thru the 'box' Didn't your test show PF has an issue providing enough heat for the required rise? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.