Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:46 AM - why put baffle seals outside the baffle (b v)
2. 10:37 AM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (b v)
3. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt)
4. 10:51 AM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt)
5. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
6. 12:28 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt)
7. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt)
8. 01:11 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
9. 01:17 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Linn Walters)
10. 01:49 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (FLYaDIVE)
11. 01:52 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt)
12. 01:55 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt)
13. 01:58 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
14. 02:00 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
15. 02:00 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (b v)
16. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (FLYaDIVE)
17. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (923te)
18. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt)
19. 05:20 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (FLYaDIVE)
20. 06:32 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te)
21. 06:46 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (FLYaDIVE)
22. 08:35 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
Gary and all,
A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air pressure
pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while if you put
them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets.
So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the cylinder
and rear baffles?
Thank you,
-Boris
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
A lot of useful info, thank you!
I guess I might want to try to attach an aluminum strip to the right front baffle
and see how much of the cabin heat inlet I can cover and still get the carb
heat temp drop.
As for the 1" fresh line, just leave it open into cowl space and use your nose
as an additional engine diagnostic tool? ;)
Q - 1. Gary, if I am not using that 1" line, is there any place I could get a 3"
to 2" reducer to put on the PowerFlow cabin heat outlet and get rid of that
ugly "Y" altogether? Exhaust section of car parts store?
Q - 2. I have another contraption in my cabin heat inlet SCAT, called "muffler".
It's number 13 on the attached diagram. It was added in '77, I think. What the
@&^% is that for?
Thank you,
-Boris
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
Yes, that is a problem. On one installation I tried two blocks stacked and
shaved. I mounted them so they hit the filter and not the housing. It would put
a big dent in the filter, but seemed to work ok.
________________________________
From: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER@epri.com>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 1:59:50 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
Gary:
Years ago I tried a block at the bottom but the filter machined itself into it.
The world could use an improved design.
(I note there is a hole at the back of the airbox that could be used to secure
the filter (with a bolt if a nut were welded on to the air filter pie pan).
John
________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
John,
By design, there should be a block on the bottom of the airbox which holds the
air filter up. There should be a tab at the outer most corner up inside the
airbox. There is a deflector plate at the inlet which holds it to the center.
On N28840, I replaced the tab with a stainless steel tube, held in place with
a
1/4 inch bolt.
The design of the airbox allows the filter to move around a lot. It's a shitty
design from the point of wear and tear. Just the vibration alone wears holes
in the pie tins around the parameter. Over the years I've tried a number of
things to keep the filter in my Tiger from eating itself. Right now I have two
blocks in the bottom in an attempt to keep the filter from moving too much. It
helps, but not a lot.
What about a redesigned airbox with an opening on top to drop the filter in?
________________________________
From: "Hosler, John" <JHOSLER@epri.com>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:39:08 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter
centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)?
Does anyone know?
I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and
back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems
it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the
carburetor.
Is this really the origial design?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
allenc3@bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but
do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the
airbox.
Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart.
Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a
Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will
work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.!
--------------------------------------------------
From: "b v" <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: b v <bvnj@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining:
>
> 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David
> Fletcher calls "pie pans"?
> 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse
> the old ones from Brakett filter?
> 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in
> 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to
> 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
I know what you mean about the carb heat entrance. Seems there is enough heat
there and that leaving it open improves the airflow to the carb. I fabricated
a
plate and did a number of carb heat rise tests. There was about 2 or 3 degrees
difference, higher, with the plate. Not worth the aggravation.
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 2:42:19 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line
I'm not convinced the duct is even needed. Seems to me that the air in the lower
cowl is "fresh" enough. It was fresh enough for VW to use in millions of bugs
and some Corvairs. Only smelled bad when the cylinders were either brand new or
really old ;)
I don't get why my PF muffler is open ended next to the carb heat intake. That
just allows mostly lower cowl air for carb heat instead of mostly hot air off
the exhaust pipes thru the 'box'
Didn't your test show PF has an issue providing enough heat for the required
rise?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
Boris
I still reduce the air inlet at the muffler while having the Jaguar cowl.
On another note, the baffles covering the front of the front cylinders can be adjusted
to cause CHTs to change. For example, if you find the front cylinders
running hotter than the back you can lower the baffle. Take note that very small
changes make big changes in cooling. Like 1/16 inch up or down can make large
temp changes.
Gary was interested in me doing some experimenting and he gave me an additional
right front baffle.
I removed the tab covering the cylinder head and made the baffle straight and even.
This seemed to be the best solution for the right side baffle in my particular
Tiger for lowest CHT and eveness between Cylinders
my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2011, at 12:34 PM, b v <bvnj@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A lot of useful info, thank you!
>
> I guess I might want to try to attach an aluminum strip to the right front baffle
and see how much of the cabin heat inlet I can cover and still get the carb
heat temp drop.
>
> As for the 1" fresh line, just leave it open into cowl space and use your nose
as an additional engine diagnostic tool? ;)
>
> Q - 1. Gary, if I am not using that 1" line, is there any place I could get a
3" to 2" reducer to put on the PowerFlow cabin heat outlet and get rid of that
ugly "Y" altogether? Exhaust section of car parts store?
>
> Q - 2. I have another contraption in my cabin heat inlet SCAT, called "muffler".
It's number 13 on the attached diagram. It was added in '77, I think. What
the @&^% is that for?
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
> <Cabin Heat.jpg>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
Boris,
I've heard this argument before and it's total bullshit. The baffle seals bend
over the baffle and seal between the baffle and the cowling. If you want baffle
seals to conform to the shape of your cowling, follow the directions.
Otherwise, you'll end up with baffles that stick straight up into the air and
you'll never get the cowling closed.
A very well known Grumman expert puts the seals on the inside and then bends the
metal baffles to force the seal to bend over. This not only makes it nearly
impossible to remove the plugs, but it looks like shit too.
see pics.
First set: customers plane. How not to do baffles.
Second set: my plane. Note how the baffles conform to the shape of the cowling.
Third set: N119ST. This is during the installation of the baffles on N119ST.
These are new baffle seals. Note how they conform to the shape of the cowling.
I would feel confident in saying that there are few mechanics, A&Ps, plane
owners, or novices that know how to correctly install baffle seals so they fit
properly.
Go to www.AuCountry.com and click on Restoration. Under 2003, you'll see Baffle
Installation. That may help.
Gary
PS. Now ask how I really feel about baffles/baffle seals. {smile}
________________________________
From: b v <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 9:43:31 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle
Gary and all,
A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air pressure
pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while if you put
them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets.
So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the cylinder
and rear baffles?
Thank you,
-Boris
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
You cannot affect carb heat drop. That is a function of the Power Flow.
Plug the hole in the "Y" divider with a 1 inch rubber plug. RTV it in place.
A-1: In 1985, I cut off the 1 inch duct on the "Y" and had a shop weld a piece
in place. After powder coating, it looked pretty good. Note, the AG5B does not
use that 1 inch duct. Get one of the reducers from Fletchair.
A-2: VERY GOOD QUESTION! In 1984 when I began the restoration on my first
Cheetah, I discovered that too. At the time, I was told that Grumman-American
included that muffler so the pilot could not hear the engine with the cabin heat
on. I removed it and flew for a while. Then put it back on and flew for a
while. I couldn't tell any difference. On a Cheetah, the cabin heat is in the
middle of the firewall. SOOOOO. I had a piece of aluminum tubing swedged out
and used it as a coupler. I mounted the muffler onto the cabin heat valve with
fuel tank sealant. Years later, on my second Cheetah, I removed the muffler
material from the muffler and put the muffler material inside the cabin heat
valve. After that, I just eliminated the damn thing.
Keep It Simple Stupid. The good ole KISS principle.
On a side note: air flow testing showed the cabin heat inlet in front of #1
kept the airflow attached to the inlet better. Without the cabin heat duct (I
call it the vacuum cleaner attachment), there is a big recirculation of airflow
in the inner corner. The same is true on the left inlet in front of #2. But,
the fix for that one is a little more involved.
Gary
________________________________
From: b v <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 10:34:35 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line
A lot of useful info, thank you!
I guess I might want to try to attach an aluminum strip to the right front
baffle and see how much of the cabin heat inlet I can cover and still get the
carb heat temp drop.
As for the 1" fresh line, just leave it open into cowl space and use your nose
as an additional engine diagnostic tool? ;)
Q - 1. Gary, if I am not using that 1" line, is there any place I could get a 3"
to 2" reducer to put on the PowerFlow cabin heat outlet and get rid of that ugly
"Y" altogether? Exhaust section of car parts store?
Q - 2. I have another contraption in my cabin heat inlet SCAT, called "muffler".
It's number 13 on the attached diagram. It was added in '77, I think. What the
@&^% is that for?
Thank you,
-Boris
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
That's interesting, only 2 or 3 deg difference in carb heat rise. Is that s
tatic on the ground or flying?
I have a temp probe in front of the carb air intake behind cyl #3. I was try
ing to see where LoPresti gets that there is really hot air off cylinders go
ing into the carb. I didn't find any hot air there while flying. It was abo
ut same as my OAT gauge. I could only get a higher reading after being stati
onary on ground at idle for 10 minutes last summer. I think it got about 15
deg hotter than OAT
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I know what you mean about the carb heat entrance. Seems there is enough h
eat there and that leaving it open improves the airflow to the carb. I fabr
icated a plate and did a number of carb heat rise tests. There was about 2 o
r 3 degrees difference, higher, with the plate. Not worth the aggravation.
>>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
On 7/6/2011 3:25 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Boris,
>
> I've heard this argument before and it's total bullshit. The baffle
> seals bend over the baffle and seal between the baffle and the
> cowling. If you want baffle seals to conform to the shape of your
> cowling, follow the directions. Otherwise, you'll end up with baffles
> that stick straight up into the air and you'll never get the cowling
> closed.
>
> A very well known Grumman expert puts the seals on the inside and then
> bends the metal baffles to force the seal to bend over. This not only
> makes it nearly impossible to remove the plugs, but it looks like shit
> too.
snip
Good pics Gary! I've seen quite a few really bad cowl seal
installations .... admittedly on homebuilts.
Almost every baffle segment is attached to a curved edge. I attach the
baffle seal material using the 'devide and conquer' method. I attach
the material to the outside at the mid-point of the curve. I use the
outside because so the seal material protects the cowl from the aluminum
edge .... if it's close and the engine rocks. The next rivet 1/2 way to
one end, pulling it down just a little so it folds over towards the
inside. Do the other side 1/2 way towards the end. Continue the
stretching/riveting until you're satisfied. Once all the riveting is
done I run a small bead of silicone along the top of the aluminum edge
and lay the top cowl on until the silicone cures. I've had the best
luck this way.
Now, as for the material. I use the thin fiberglass reinforced stuff
like in Gary's pictures. I've seen a lot of 1/8" silicone installations
and they all look like crap. The thin stuff forms much easier to the
cowl shape and is easier to work that subtle curve.
Linn
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
Ned:
I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler reduce
the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed from
the muffler to the cabin.
Am I missing something?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
>
> Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air
> inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter
> hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the
> teens F.
>
> Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as
> much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs,
> enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling
> drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things
> up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up
> to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust
>
> Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded
> really hot air?
>
> Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the
> inlet to the muffler.
>
> Carb heat was unaffected
>
> It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
>
> YMMV
> Ned
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How
> much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would
> have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the
> Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange
> (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
> >
> > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air
> mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to
> have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that
> burns your feet etc.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
> >>
> >> Hi Gary,
> >>
> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe
> shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh
> air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is
> too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even
> windshield.
> >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you
> been connecting it to?
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> -Boris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
I did that test in 2000. Only, I tested the temp of the air going into the oil
cooler. Very little if any radiant heat from the cylinders.
I did the carb heat rise tests in flight as part of the FAA testing.
________________________________
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 1:09:12 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line
That's interesting, only 2 or 3 deg difference in carb heat rise. Is that
static on the ground or flying?
I have a temp probe in front of the carb air intake behind cyl #3. I was trying
to see where LoPresti gets that there is really hot air off cylinders going into
the carb. I didn't find any hot air there while flying. It was about same as my
OAT gauge. I could only get a higher reading after being stationary on ground at
idle for 10 minutes last summer. I think it got about 15 deg hotter than OAT
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know what you mean about the carb heat entrance. Seems there is enough heat
there and that leaving it open improves the airflow to the carb. I fabricated
a
plate and did a number of carb heat rise tests. There was about 2 or 3 degrees
difference, higher, with the plate. Not worth the aggravation.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
I start at one end at 3/4 inches overlap. The first two rivets are quite close
together . . . 1 inch or less. The next ones are installed at intervals needed
to form the curve.
________________________________
From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 1:14:11 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle
On 7/6/2011 3:25 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
Boris,
>
>
>I've heard this argument before and it's total bullshit. The baffle
>seals bend over the baffle and seal between the baffle and the
>cowling. If you want baffle seals to conform to the shape of your
>cowling, follow the directions. Otherwise, you'll end up with baffles
>that stick straight up into the air and you'll never get the cowling
>closed.
>
>
>A very well known Grumman expert puts the seals on the inside and then
>bends the metal baffles to force the seal to bend over. This not only
>makes it nearly impossible to remove the plugs, but it looks like shit
>too.
>
snip
Good pics Gary! I've seen quite a few really bad cowl seal installations
.... admittedly on homebuilts.
Almost every baffle segment is attached to a curved edge. I attach the
baffle seal material using the 'devide and conquer' method. I attach the
material to the outside at the mid-point of the curve. I use the outside
because so the seal material protects the cowl from the aluminum edge ....
if it's close and the engine rocks. The next rivet 1/2 way to one end,
pulling it down just a little so it folds over towards the inside. Do the
other side 1/2 way towards the end. Continue the stretching/riveting until
you're satisfied. Once all the riveting is done I run a small bead of
silicone along the top of the aluminum edge and lay the top cowl on until
the silicone cures. I've had the best luck this way.
Now, as for the material. I use the thin fiberglass reinforced stuff like
in Gary's pictures. I've seen a lot of 1/8" silicone installations and they
all look like crap. The thin stuff forms much easier to the cowl shape and
is easier to work that subtle curve.
Linn
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
Remember the cabin heat valve? It is always open to the lower cowl unless ca
bin heat is fully opened. That's why you sometimes see evidence of heat on t
he firewall at the bottom of the cabin heat valve where the opening is. Ther
e is a lot if air moving thru there and it is very hot.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ned:
>
> I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler redu
ce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed fr
om the muffler to the cabin.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
>
> Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air in
let to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hol
e is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the tee
ns F.
>
> Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as mu
ch as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enoug
h to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and
keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It a
lso keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increa
se scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust
>
> Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneede
d really hot air?
>
> Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the
inlet to the muffler.
>
> Carb heat was unaffected
>
> It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
>
> YMMV
> Ned
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How
much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would h
ave been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y
to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78
/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
> >
> > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air m
ixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to hav
e a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that bur
ns your feet etc.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
> >>
> >> Hi Gary,
> >>
> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pip
e shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh a
ir. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is t
oo hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windsh
ield.
> >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you
been connecting it to?
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> -Boris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ==========
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
I didn't reduce the scat tube diameter. I put a plate over the muffler openi
ng and drilled a hole in the middle of it.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ned:
>
> I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler redu
ce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed fr
om the muffler to the cabin.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
>
> Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air in
let to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hol
e is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the tee
ns F.
>
> Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as mu
ch as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enoug
h to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and
keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It a
lso keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increa
se scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust
>
> Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneede
d really hot air?
>
> Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the
inlet to the muffler.
>
> Carb heat was unaffected
>
> It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
>
> YMMV
> Ned
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How
much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would h
ave been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y
to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78
/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
> >
> > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air m
ixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to hav
e a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that bur
ns your feet etc.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
> >>
> >> Hi Gary,
> >>
> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pip
e shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh a
ir. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is t
oo hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windsh
ield.
> >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you
been connecting it to?
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >> -Boris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ==========
> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
Thank you for the pictures, Gary!
I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the cabin
heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt.
Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal material.
I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and expose the reinforcement
material and it starts rubbing holes in the top cowl and for that
reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I haven't seen it rub a hole
all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in the top aluminum cowl. Some
people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the contact area as a remedy. What
do you think?
Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come?
The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a one-piece
top cowl now?
Thank you,
-Boris
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
Boris:
You will see ware on the cowl after a while. My cure is to use 100 MPH
aluminum tape and line out the area where the seal contacts the cowl.
Looks good, easy to clean and prevents ware... AND easy to replace.
I have some so after you paint call me.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:58 PM, b v <bvnj@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the pictures, Gary!
>
> I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the
> cabin heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt.
>
> Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal
> material. I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and
> expose the reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the top
> cowl and for that reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I
> haven't seen it rub a hole all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in
> the top aluminum cowl. Some people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the
> contact area as a remedy. What do you think?
>
> Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come?
>
> The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a
> one-piece top cowl now?
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
I use clear silicone on the upper cowl where the wear marks are. I put
clear packing tape on the baffle seals and close the cowl and leave it
over night. The next day I open the cowl, (the tape acts as a good
releasing agent) peal the tape of the baffles and am done. The clear
silicone spreads out nice and thin and doesn't change the appearance
much like aluminum tape does. You can do this to seal around where the
upper cowl doors contact the firewall and nosebowl....
One of the things I do is to use a shop light when its dark. I put the
light behind the engine and close the cowl. The light helps to show all
the leaks. I usually have to take a razor blade and split the baffles
where they have folded away from the cowl, splitting it there will make
it lay flat on the cowl. Sometimes I have used the above silicone method
in reverse were I put a matching color silicone on on the baffle and the
tape on the cowl.
When you close the cowl doors the shape of the seals changes. Look thru
the air intakes during daylight to get an idea of how much the baffles
need worked on.
Another area: There is usually a big gaping leak at the back cylinders
down where the sun don't shine around the cylinder bolt nut. Gary's
baffles are much better here than the factory but you can still seal it
with silicone there.
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the
baffle
Boris:
You will see ware on the cowl after a while. My cure is to use 100
MPH aluminum tape and line out the area where the seal contacts the
cowl.
Looks good, easy to clean and prevents ware... AND easy to replace.
I have some so after you paint call me.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:58 PM, b v <bvnj@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thank you for the pictures, Gary!
I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out
in the cabin heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt
adjustment bolt.
Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal
material. I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out
and expose the reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the
top cowl and for that reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals.
I haven't seen it rub a hole all the way thru, but I have seen some
damage in the top aluminum cowl. Some people suggest to put aluminum
tape to cover the contact area as a remedy. What do you think?
Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come?
The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you
using a one-piece top cowl now?
Thank you,
-Boris
==========
List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
I use the 3/16 inch reinforced material from Bee-Gee. I buy it in 100 foot
rolls from Sacramento Sky Ranch. You can probably buy it direct. You'll need
about 4 feet or more.
The pics of my plane are pre-2005. Originally I was going to do both exhaust
systems. Then I learned the cost of extra drawings and testing. Based on the
number of cowling sales, I'll break even at about 50 to 60 cowlings. Had I done
the stock exhaust system, figure another 30 cowlings.
I don't have any pics of my upper cowling and the wear on the baffle seals. For
the most part, the Imron on the underside of the cowling will be smooth enough
to stop chafing. There is some wear. But, after 7 years on my plane, nothing
is worn through.
N119ST. It wasn't finished yet.
________________________________
From: b v <bvnj@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 1:58:02 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle
Thank you for the pictures, Gary!
I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the cabin
heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt.
Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal material.
I
heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and expose the
reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the top cowl and for that
reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I haven't seen it rub a hole
all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in the top aluminum cowl. Some
people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the contact area as a remedy. What
do you think?
Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come?
The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a
one-piece top cowl now?
Thank you,
-Boris
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
AHhhhhh
I see your point. So, if a fitting was made around the valve and SCAT tube
directed out the cowl flaps you wold lower the cowl temp.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:55 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
> Remember the cabin heat valve? It is always open to the lower cowl unless
> cabin heat is fully opened. That's why you sometimes see evidence of heat on
> the firewall at the bottom of the cabin heat valve where the opening is.
> There is a lot if air moving thru there and it is very hot.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ned:
>
> I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to
> the muffler reduce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the
> muffler and sealed from the muffler to the cabin.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te < <923te@att.net>923te@att.net>wrote:
>
>> 923te@att.net>
>>
>> Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air
>> inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter
>> hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the
>> teens F.
>>
>> Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as
>> much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs,
>> enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling
>> drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things
>> up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up
>> to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust
>>
>> Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping
>> unneeded really hot air?
>>
>> Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the
>> inlet to the muffler.
>>
>> Carb heat was unaffected
>>
>> It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
>>
>> YMMV
>> Ned
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b < <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>> flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>>
>> flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>> >
>> > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How
>> much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would
>> have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the
>> Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange
>> (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct.
>> >
>> > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air
>> mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to
>> have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that
>> burns your feet etc.
>> >
>> > Cliff
>> >
>> > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, <bvnj@yahoo.com>bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <bvnj@yahoo.com>
>> bvnj@yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >> Hi Gary,
>> >>
>> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust
>> pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply
>> fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot
>> air is too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe
>> even windshield.
>> >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you
>> been connecting it to?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >> -Boris
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> List" target="_blank"><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> ==========
>> <http://forums.matronics.com>http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank"> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> 3D
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line |
Yes and lower the pressure min the lower cowl if you have the OEM
muffler.
Not if you have the PowerFlow muffler as it is open ended to the lower
cowl.
Also, I question whether the cabin heat valve could with stand the
pressure and heat with the vavle body being sealed. It might allow hot
air into the cabin all the time if it were pressurized
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat
line
AHhhhhh
I see your point. So, if a fitting was made around the valve and SCAT
tube directed out the cowl flaps you wold lower the cowl temp.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:55 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
Remember the cabin heat valve? It is always open to the lower cowl
unless cabin heat is fully opened. That's why you sometimes see evidence
of heat on the firewall at the bottom of the cabin heat valve where the
opening is. There is a lot if air moving thru there and it is very hot.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
Ned:
I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the
muffler reduce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the
muffler and sealed from the muffler to the cabin.
Am I missing something?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote:
Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the
fresh air inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half
inch diameter hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT
even down in the teens F.
Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not
pressurized as much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with
lowering CHTs, enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also
reduces cooling drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve
from burning things up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling
which keeps velocities up to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned
exhaust
Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously
dumping unneeded really hot air?
Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally
placed at the inlet to the muffler.
Carb heat was unaffected
It is a simple to do for many benefits.....
YMMV
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
wrote:
<flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
> The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature
some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The
plumbing would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat
problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the
metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet
SCAT duct.
>
> An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of
cold air mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's
better to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very
hot air that burns your feet etc.
>
> Cliff
>
> On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com
>>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to
exhaust pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm
to supply fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that
without it the hot air is too hot and it could damage the plastic
defroster vents and maybe even windshield.
>> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now.
Where have you been connecting it to?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> -Boris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
==========
List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
==========
http://forums.matronics.com
==========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
im">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
Boris, Gary & Team:
Here are my thoughts on In Vs Out:
1. There is no advantage of putting the silicon baffle material on the
outside. Only a disadvantage.
- Why? Well if you think about it there is only 0.025 to
0.035" difference in position between inside and out. The
thickness of the
metal baffle.
- The difference is in which direction the NATURAL ROLL of the silicon
goes. YOU MUST place the curve of the silicon baffle material to the
INSIDE. This is true for BOTH the LENGTH and the WIDTH of the silicon
baffle material.
- THERE IS A CURVE! ! !
- It's ugly! But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
2. Reinforced Vs Un-Reinforced:
- The Un-Reinforced is softer and will bend easier and conform easier.
- The Un-Reinforced will also deform easier when the Pop-Rivets are
squeezed down. This causes and adds to the scalloping of the
silicon baffle
material.
- The Un-Reinforced will tear easier.
3. The Cure for problems in #2 above:
- I use 1/8" thick x 1/2" wide x Required LONG LENGTHS of aluminum
strips that function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the
silicon baffle
material against the aluminum baffle material.
- This FLATTENS the silicon baffle material ELIMINATING ALL scalloping
as well as stiffening the aluminium baffle material.
- So NOW you can use the softer, more flexible Non-Reinforced silicon
baffle material. Which will give you a better seal and less ware.
- So, why on the inside if you do all the above? It LQQKs a hell of a
lot better.
- Yes, you can still use the LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that
function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material
against the aluminum baffle material - On The Out Side.
- Oh! I use 5/8" Dia HEAD x 1/8" Dia Shank x 1/2" Long Shank -
Pop-Rivets.
- To prevent tearing I stitch the over laps in the corners and 'V'
cuts with dental floss.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:43 PM, b v <bvnj@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Gary and all,
>
>
> A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air
> pressure pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while
> if you put them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets.
>
> So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the
> cylinder and rear baffles?
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle |
Barry,
I would challenge any installation you could do with what I do regarding
longevity, sealing ability, and looks compared to mine. Inside is just not
right.
________________________________
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 6:44:29 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle
Boris, Gary & Team:
Here are my thoughts on In Vs Out:
1. There is no advantage of putting the silicon baffle material on the outside.
Only a disadvantage.
* Why? Well if you think about it there is only 0.025 to
0.035" difference in position between inside and out. The thickness of the
metal baffle.
* The difference is in which direction the NATURAL ROLL of the silicon goes.
YOU MUST place the curve of the silicon baffle material to the INSIDE. This is
true for BOTH the LENGTH and the WIDTH of the silicon baffle material.
* THERE IS A CURVE! ! !
* It's ugly! But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
2. Reinforced Vs Un-Reinforced:
* The Un-Reinforced is softer and will bend easier and conform easier.
* The Un-Reinforced will also deform easier when the Pop-Rivets are squeezed
down. This causes and adds to the scalloping of the silicon baffle material.
* The Un-Reinforced will tear easier.
3. The Cure for problems in #2 above:
* I use 1/8" thick x 1/2" wide x Required LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that
function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material against
the aluminum baffle material.
* This FLATTENS the silicon baffle material ELIMINATING ALL scalloping as well
as stiffening the aluminium baffle material.
* So NOW you can use the softer, more flexible Non-Reinforced silicon baffle
material. Which will give you a better seal and less ware.
* So, why on the inside if you do all the above? It LQQKs a hell of a lot
better.
* Yes, you can still use the LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that function as
a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material against the
aluminum baffle material - On The Out Side.
* Oh! I use 5/8" Dia HEAD x 1/8" Dia Shank x 1/2" Long Shank - Pop-Rivets.
* To prevent tearing I stitch the over laps in the corners and 'V' cuts
with dental floss.
Barry
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:43 PM, b v <bvnj@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Gary and all,
>
>
>A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air pressure
>pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while if you put
>them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets.
>
>So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the cylinder
>and rear baffles?
>
>Thank you,
>-Boris
>
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