---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/06/11: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:46 AM - why put baffle seals outside the baffle (b v) 2. 10:37 AM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (b v) 3. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt) 4. 10:51 AM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt) 5. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) 6. 12:28 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt) 7. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt) 8. 01:11 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) 9. 01:17 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Linn Walters) 10. 01:49 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (FLYaDIVE) 11. 01:52 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (Gary Vogt) 12. 01:55 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt) 13. 01:58 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) 14. 02:00 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) 15. 02:00 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (b v) 16. 02:07 PM - Re: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (FLYaDIVE) 17. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (923te) 18. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt) 19. 05:20 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (FLYaDIVE) 20. 06:32 PM - Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line (923te) 21. 06:46 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (FLYaDIVE) 22. 08:35 PM - Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle (Gary Vogt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:31 AM PST US From: b v Subject: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Gary and all, A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air pressure pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while if you put them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets. So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the cylinder and rear baffles? Thank you, -Boris ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:33 AM PST US From: b v Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line A lot of useful info, thank you! I guess I might want to try to attach an aluminum strip to the right front baffle and see how much of the cabin heat inlet I can cover and still get the carb heat temp drop. As for the 1" fresh line, just leave it open into cowl space and use your nose as an additional engine diagnostic tool? ;) Q - 1. Gary, if I am not using that 1" line, is there any place I could get a 3" to 2" reducer to put on the PowerFlow cabin heat outlet and get rid of that ugly "Y" altogether? Exhaust section of car parts store? Q - 2. I have another contraption in my cabin heat inlet SCAT, called "muffler". It's number 13 on the attached diagram. It was added in '77, I think. What the @&^% is that for? Thank you, -Boris ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:36 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes Yes, that is a problem. On one installation I tried two blocks stacked and shaved. I mounted them so they hit the filter and not the housing. It would put a big dent in the filter, but seemed to work ok. ________________________________ From: "Hosler, John" Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 1:59:50 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes Gary: Years ago I tried a block at the bottom but the filter machined itself into it. The world could use an improved design. (I note there is a hole at the back of the airbox that could be used to secure the filter (with a bolt if a nut were welded on to the air filter pie pan). John ________________________________ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 4:49 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes John, By design, there should be a block on the bottom of the airbox which holds the air filter up. There should be a tab at the outer most corner up inside the airbox. There is a deflector plate at the inlet which holds it to the center. On N28840, I replaced the tab with a stainless steel tube, held in place with a 1/4 inch bolt. The design of the airbox allows the filter to move around a lot. It's a shitty design from the point of wear and tear. Just the vibration alone wears holes in the pie tins around the parameter. Over the years I've tried a number of things to keep the filter in my Tiger from eating itself. Right now I have two blocks in the bottom in an attempt to keep the filter from moving too much. It helps, but not a lot. What about a redesigned airbox with an opening on top to drop the filter in? ________________________________ From: "Hosler, John" Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 12:39:08 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes So exactly what is supposed to hold a 1977 Tiger bracket air filter centered in the airbox(and not fall to the bottom)? Does anyone know? I have seen sticky (on both sides) rubber tape used on the front and back face of the filter pie pans. This seems pretty lame and it seems it would offer the opportunity for worn rubber to get into the carburetor. Is this really the origial design? John -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of allenc3@bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 2:23 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes I use a Challenger filter in my Converted Cheetah. It is a 76 model, but do not know what year the airbox is .No pie plate, just slides in the airbox. Just recharge it every annual with a kit you can buy at Wall mart. Actually, you can buy the whole filter at Wall Mart, K&N filter for a Slant Six Chrysler product, around 1976. I think a Dodge Dart will work.. About 24 bucks, but no STC.! -------------------------------------------------- From: "b v" Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 11:05 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: b v > > Thanks for all the answers, but a couple of questions are remaining: > > 1. does the Chalenger filter use an aluminum plates, which David > Fletcher calls "pie pans"? > 2. if it does, does it come with new ones or is one supposed to reuse > the old ones from Brakett filter? > 3. David Fletcher on his web site suggests that they don't fit well in > 77 to 79 Tiger airbox. Does anybody have a Chalenger filter on a 77 to > 79 Tiger? What is your experience? A little tight squeeze href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:43 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line I know what you mean about the carb heat entrance. Seems there is enough heat there and that leaving it open improves the airflow to the carb. I fabricated a plate and did a number of carb heat rise tests. There was about 2 or 3 degrees difference, higher, with the plate. Not worth the aggravation. ________________________________ From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Tue, July 5, 2011 2:42:19 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line I'm not convinced the duct is even needed. Seems to me that the air in the lower cowl is "fresh" enough. It was fresh enough for VW to use in millions of bugs and some Corvairs. Only smelled bad when the cylinders were either brand new or really old ;) I don't get why my PF muffler is open ended next to the carb heat intake. That just allows mostly lower cowl air for carb heat instead of mostly hot air off the exhaust pipes thru the 'box' Didn't your test show PF has an issue providing enough heat for the required rise? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:07 AM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line Boris I still reduce the air inlet at the muffler while having the Jaguar cowl. On another note, the baffles covering the front of the front cylinders can be adjusted to cause CHTs to change. For example, if you find the front cylinders running hotter than the back you can lower the baffle. Take note that very small changes make big changes in cooling. Like 1/16 inch up or down can make large temp changes. Gary was interested in me doing some experimenting and he gave me an additional right front baffle. I removed the tab covering the cylinder head and made the baffle straight and even. This seemed to be the best solution for the right side baffle in my particular Tiger for lowest CHT and eveness between Cylinders my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 12:34 PM, b v wrote: > A lot of useful info, thank you! > > I guess I might want to try to attach an aluminum strip to the right front baffle and see how much of the cabin heat inlet I can cover and still get the carb heat temp drop. > > As for the 1" fresh line, just leave it open into cowl space and use your nose as an additional engine diagnostic tool? ;) > > Q - 1. Gary, if I am not using that 1" line, is there any place I could get a 3" to 2" reducer to put on the PowerFlow cabin heat outlet and get rid of that ugly "Y" altogether? Exhaust section of car parts store? > > Q - 2. I have another contraption in my cabin heat inlet SCAT, called "muffler". It's number 13 on the attached diagram. It was added in '77, I think. What the @&^% is that for? > > Thank you, > -Boris > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:45 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Boris, I've heard this argument before and it's total bullshit. The baffle seals bend over the baffle and seal between the baffle and the cowling. If you want baffle seals to conform to the shape of your cowling, follow the directions. Otherwise, you'll end up with baffles that stick straight up into the air and you'll never get the cowling closed. A very well known Grumman expert puts the seals on the inside and then bends the metal baffles to force the seal to bend over. This not only makes it nearly impossible to remove the plugs, but it looks like shit too. see pics. First set: customers plane. How not to do baffles. Second set: my plane. Note how the baffles conform to the shape of the cowling. Third set: N119ST. This is during the installation of the baffles on N119ST. These are new baffle seals. Note how they conform to the shape of the cowling. I would feel confident in saying that there are few mechanics, A&Ps, plane owners, or novices that know how to correctly install baffle seals so they fit properly. Go to www.AuCountry.com and click on Restoration. Under 2003, you'll see Baffle Installation. That may help. Gary PS. Now ask how I really feel about baffles/baffle seals. {smile} ________________________________ From: b v Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 9:43:31 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Gary and all, A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air pressure pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while if you put them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets. So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the cylinder and rear baffles? Thank you, -Boris ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:03 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line You cannot affect carb heat drop. That is a function of the Power Flow. Plug the hole in the "Y" divider with a 1 inch rubber plug. RTV it in place. A-1: In 1985, I cut off the 1 inch duct on the "Y" and had a shop weld a piece in place. After powder coating, it looked pretty good. Note, the AG5B does not use that 1 inch duct. Get one of the reducers from Fletchair. A-2: VERY GOOD QUESTION! In 1984 when I began the restoration on my first Cheetah, I discovered that too. At the time, I was told that Grumman-American included that muffler so the pilot could not hear the engine with the cabin heat on. I removed it and flew for a while. Then put it back on and flew for a while. I couldn't tell any difference. On a Cheetah, the cabin heat is in the middle of the firewall. SOOOOO. I had a piece of aluminum tubing swedged out and used it as a coupler. I mounted the muffler onto the cabin heat valve with fuel tank sealant. Years later, on my second Cheetah, I removed the muffler material from the muffler and put the muffler material inside the cabin heat valve. After that, I just eliminated the damn thing. Keep It Simple Stupid. The good ole KISS principle. On a side note: air flow testing showed the cabin heat inlet in front of #1 kept the airflow attached to the inlet better. Without the cabin heat duct (I call it the vacuum cleaner attachment), there is a big recirculation of airflow in the inner corner. The same is true on the left inlet in front of #2. But, the fix for that one is a little more involved. Gary ________________________________ From: b v Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 10:34:35 AM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line A lot of useful info, thank you! I guess I might want to try to attach an aluminum strip to the right front baffle and see how much of the cabin heat inlet I can cover and still get the carb heat temp drop. As for the 1" fresh line, just leave it open into cowl space and use your nose as an additional engine diagnostic tool? ;) Q - 1. Gary, if I am not using that 1" line, is there any place I could get a 3" to 2" reducer to put on the PowerFlow cabin heat outlet and get rid of that ugly "Y" altogether? Exhaust section of car parts store? Q - 2. I have another contraption in my cabin heat inlet SCAT, called "muffler". It's number 13 on the attached diagram. It was added in '77, I think. What the @&^% is that for? Thank you, -Boris ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line From: 923te <923te@att.net> That's interesting, only 2 or 3 deg difference in carb heat rise. Is that s tatic on the ground or flying? I have a temp probe in front of the carb air intake behind cyl #3. I was try ing to see where LoPresti gets that there is really hot air off cylinders go ing into the carb. I didn't find any hot air there while flying. It was abo ut same as my OAT gauge. I could only get a higher reading after being stati onary on ground at idle for 10 minutes last summer. I think it got about 15 deg hotter than OAT Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > I know what you mean about the carb heat entrance. Seems there is enough h eat there and that leaving it open improves the airflow to the carb. I fabr icated a plate and did a number of carb heat rise tests. There was about 2 o r 3 degrees difference, higher, with the plate. Not worth the aggravation. >> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:03 PM PST US From: Linn Walters Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle On 7/6/2011 3:25 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > Boris, > > I've heard this argument before and it's total bullshit. The baffle > seals bend over the baffle and seal between the baffle and the > cowling. If you want baffle seals to conform to the shape of your > cowling, follow the directions. Otherwise, you'll end up with baffles > that stick straight up into the air and you'll never get the cowling > closed. > > A very well known Grumman expert puts the seals on the inside and then > bends the metal baffles to force the seal to bend over. This not only > makes it nearly impossible to remove the plugs, but it looks like shit > too. snip Good pics Gary! I've seen quite a few really bad cowl seal installations .... admittedly on homebuilts. Almost every baffle segment is attached to a curved edge. I attach the baffle seal material using the 'devide and conquer' method. I attach the material to the outside at the mid-point of the curve. I use the outside because so the seal material protects the cowl from the aluminum edge .... if it's close and the engine rocks. The next rivet 1/2 way to one end, pulling it down just a little so it folds over towards the inside. Do the other side 1/2 way towards the end. Continue the stretching/riveting until you're satisfied. Once all the riveting is done I run a small bead of silicone along the top of the aluminum edge and lay the top cowl on until the silicone cures. I've had the best luck this way. Now, as for the material. I use the thin fiberglass reinforced stuff like in Gary's pictures. I've seen a lot of 1/8" silicone installations and they all look like crap. The thin stuff forms much easier to the cowl shape and is easier to work that subtle curve. Linn ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line From: FLYaDIVE Ned: I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler reduce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed from the muffler to the cabin. Am I missing something? Barry On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote: > > Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air > inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter > hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the > teens F. > > Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as > much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, > enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling > drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things > up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up > to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust > > Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded > really hot air? > > Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the > inlet to the muffler. > > Carb heat was unaffected > > It is a simple to do for many benefits..... > > YMMV > Ned > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > > > > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How > much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would > have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the > Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange > (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. > > > > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air > mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to > have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that > burns your feet etc. > > > > Cliff > > > > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: > >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com > >> > >> Hi Gary, > >> > >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe > shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh > air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is > too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even > windshield. > >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you > been connecting it to? > >> > >> Thank you, > >> -Boris > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:22 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line I did that test in 2000. Only, I tested the temp of the air going into the oil cooler. Very little if any radiant heat from the cylinders. I did the carb heat rise tests in flight as part of the FAA testing. ________________________________ From: 923te <923te@att.net> Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 1:09:12 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line That's interesting, only 2 or 3 deg difference in carb heat rise. Is that static on the ground or flying? I have a temp probe in front of the carb air intake behind cyl #3. I was trying to see where LoPresti gets that there is really hot air off cylinders going into the carb. I didn't find any hot air there while flying. It was about same as my OAT gauge. I could only get a higher reading after being stationary on ground at idle for 10 minutes last summer. I think it got about 15 deg hotter than OAT Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: I know what you mean about the carb heat entrance. Seems there is enough heat there and that leaving it open improves the airflow to the carb. I fabricated a plate and did a number of carb heat rise tests. There was about 2 or 3 degrees difference, higher, with the plate. Not worth the aggravation. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:45 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle I start at one end at 3/4 inches overlap. The first two rivets are quite close together . . . 1 inch or less. The next ones are installed at intervals needed to form the curve. ________________________________ From: Linn Walters Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 1:14:11 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle On 7/6/2011 3:25 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: Boris, > > >I've heard this argument before and it's total bullshit. The baffle >seals bend over the baffle and seal between the baffle and the >cowling. If you want baffle seals to conform to the shape of your >cowling, follow the directions. Otherwise, you'll end up with baffles >that stick straight up into the air and you'll never get the cowling >closed. > > >A very well known Grumman expert puts the seals on the inside and then >bends the metal baffles to force the seal to bend over. This not only >makes it nearly impossible to remove the plugs, but it looks like shit >too. > snip Good pics Gary! I've seen quite a few really bad cowl seal installations .... admittedly on homebuilts. Almost every baffle segment is attached to a curved edge. I attach the baffle seal material using the 'devide and conquer' method. I attach the material to the outside at the mid-point of the curve. I use the outside because so the seal material protects the cowl from the aluminum edge .... if it's close and the engine rocks. The next rivet 1/2 way to one end, pulling it down just a little so it folds over towards the inside. Do the other side 1/2 way towards the end. Continue the stretching/riveting until you're satisfied. Once all the riveting is done I run a small bead of silicone along the top of the aluminum edge and lay the top cowl on until the silicone cures. I've had the best luck this way. Now, as for the material. I use the thin fiberglass reinforced stuff like in Gary's pictures. I've seen a lot of 1/8" silicone installations and they all look like crap. The thin stuff forms much easier to the cowl shape and is easier to work that subtle curve. Linn ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:07 PM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line Remember the cabin heat valve? It is always open to the lower cowl unless ca bin heat is fully opened. That's why you sometimes see evidence of heat on t he firewall at the bottom of the cabin heat valve where the opening is. Ther e is a lot if air moving thru there and it is very hot. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Ned: > > I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler redu ce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed fr om the muffler to the cabin. > > Am I missing something? > > Barry > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote: > > Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air in let to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hol e is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the tee ns F. > > Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as mu ch as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enoug h to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It a lso keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increa se scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust > > Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneede d really hot air? > > Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet to the muffler. > > Carb heat was unaffected > > It is a simple to do for many benefits..... > > YMMV > Ned > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > > > > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would h ave been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78 /79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. > > > > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air m ixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to hav e a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that bur ns your feet etc. > > > > Cliff > > > > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: > >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com > >> > >> Hi Gary, > >> > >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pip e shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh a ir. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is t oo hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windsh ield. > >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been connecting it to? > >> > >> Thank you, > >> -Boris > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis t > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:07 PM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line I didn't reduce the scat tube diameter. I put a plate over the muffler openi ng and drilled a hole in the middle of it. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Ned: > > I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler redu ce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed fr om the muffler to the cabin. > > Am I missing something? > > Barry > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote: > > Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air in let to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hol e is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the tee ns F. > > Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as mu ch as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enoug h to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It a lso keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increa se scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust > > Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneede d really hot air? > > Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet to the muffler. > > Carb heat was unaffected > > It is a simple to do for many benefits..... > > YMMV > Ned > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > > > > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would h ave been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78 /79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. > > > > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air m ixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to hav e a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that bur ns your feet etc. > > > > Cliff > > > > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: > >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com > >> > >> Hi Gary, > >> > >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pip e shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh a ir. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is t oo hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windsh ield. > >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been connecting it to? > >> > >> Thank you, > >> -Boris > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis t > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:22 PM PST US From: b v Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Thank you for the pictures, Gary! I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the cabin heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt. Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal material. I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and expose the reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the top cowl and for that reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I haven't seen it rub a hole all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in the top aluminum cowl. Some people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the contact area as a remedy. What do you think? Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come? The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a one-piece top cowl now? Thank you, -Boris ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle From: FLYaDIVE Boris: You will see ware on the cowl after a while. My cure is to use 100 MPH aluminum tape and line out the area where the seal contacts the cowl. Looks good, easy to clean and prevents ware... AND easy to replace. I have some so after you paint call me. Barry On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:58 PM, b v wrote: > > Thank you for the pictures, Gary! > > I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the > cabin heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt. > > Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal > material. I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and > expose the reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the top > cowl and for that reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I > haven't seen it rub a hole all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in > the top aluminum cowl. Some people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the > contact area as a remedy. What do you think? > > Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come? > > The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a > one-piece top cowl now? > > Thank you, > -Boris > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:25 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle I use clear silicone on the upper cowl where the wear marks are. I put clear packing tape on the baffle seals and close the cowl and leave it over night. The next day I open the cowl, (the tape acts as a good releasing agent) peal the tape of the baffles and am done. The clear silicone spreads out nice and thin and doesn't change the appearance much like aluminum tape does. You can do this to seal around where the upper cowl doors contact the firewall and nosebowl.... One of the things I do is to use a shop light when its dark. I put the light behind the engine and close the cowl. The light helps to show all the leaks. I usually have to take a razor blade and split the baffles where they have folded away from the cowl, splitting it there will make it lay flat on the cowl. Sometimes I have used the above silicone method in reverse were I put a matching color silicone on on the baffle and the tape on the cowl. When you close the cowl doors the shape of the seals changes. Look thru the air intakes during daylight to get an idea of how much the baffles need worked on. Another area: There is usually a big gaping leak at the back cylinders down where the sun don't shine around the cylinder bolt nut. Gary's baffles are much better here than the factory but you can still seal it with silicone there. ----- Original Message ----- From: FLYaDIVE To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:05 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Boris: You will see ware on the cowl after a while. My cure is to use 100 MPH aluminum tape and line out the area where the seal contacts the cowl. Looks good, easy to clean and prevents ware... AND easy to replace. I have some so after you paint call me. Barry On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:58 PM, b v wrote: Thank you for the pictures, Gary! I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the cabin heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt. Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal material. I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and expose the reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the top cowl and for that reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I haven't seen it rub a hole all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in the top aluminum cowl. Some people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the contact area as a remedy. What do you think? Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come? The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a one-piece top cowl now? Thank you, -Boris ========== List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:28 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle I use the 3/16 inch reinforced material from Bee-Gee. I buy it in 100 foot rolls from Sacramento Sky Ranch. You can probably buy it direct. You'll need about 4 feet or more. The pics of my plane are pre-2005. Originally I was going to do both exhaust systems. Then I learned the cost of extra drawings and testing. Based on the number of cowling sales, I'll break even at about 50 to 60 cowlings. Had I done the stock exhaust system, figure another 30 cowlings. I don't have any pics of my upper cowling and the wear on the baffle seals. For the most part, the Imron on the underside of the cowling will be smooth enough to stop chafing. There is some wear. But, after 7 years on my plane, nothing is worn through. N119ST. It wasn't finished yet. ________________________________ From: b v Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 1:58:02 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Thank you for the pictures, Gary! I have just learned so much! For example, I need to make a cut-out in the cabin heat inlet duct to accommodate the alternator belt adjustment bolt. Another "Other people suggest" question - this one about baffle seal material. I heard people say that the reinforced baffle seals wear out and expose the reinforcement material and it starts rubbing holes in the top cowl and for that reason they prefer non-reinforced silicone seals. I haven't seen it rub a hole all the way thru, but I have seen some damage in the top aluminum cowl. Some people suggest to put aluminum tape to cover the contact area as a remedy. What do you think? Your plane has a standard exhaust! How come? The N119ST baffle doesn't have a cut-out for the hinge. Are you using a one-piece top cowl now? Thank you, -Boris ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line From: FLYaDIVE AHhhhhh I see your point. So, if a fitting was made around the valve and SCAT tube directed out the cowl flaps you wold lower the cowl temp. Barry On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:55 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote: > Remember the cabin heat valve? It is always open to the lower cowl unless > cabin heat is fully opened. That's why you sometimes see evidence of heat on > the firewall at the bottom of the cabin heat valve where the opening is. > There is a lot if air moving thru there and it is very hot. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > > Ned: > > I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to > the muffler reduce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the > muffler and sealed from the muffler to the cabin. > > Am I missing something? > > Barry > > On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te < <923te@att.net>923te@att.net>wrote: > >> 923te@att.net> >> >> Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air >> inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter >> hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the >> teens F. >> >> Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as >> much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, >> enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling >> drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things >> up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up >> to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust >> >> Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping >> unneeded really hot air? >> >> Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the >> inlet to the muffler. >> >> Carb heat was unaffected >> >> It is a simple to do for many benefits..... >> >> YMMV >> Ned >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b < >> flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote: >> >> flyv35b@minetfiber.com> >> > >> > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How >> much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would >> have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the >> Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange >> (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. >> > >> > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air >> mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to >> have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that >> burns your feet etc. >> > >> > Cliff >> > >> > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: >> bvnj@yahoo.com >> >> >> >> Hi Gary, >> >> >> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust >> pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply >> fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot >> air is too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe >> even windshield. >> >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you >> been connecting it to? >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> -Boris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========== >> List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > * > > > 3D > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:24 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line Yes and lower the pressure min the lower cowl if you have the OEM muffler. Not if you have the PowerFlow muffler as it is open ended to the lower cowl. Also, I question whether the cabin heat valve could with stand the pressure and heat with the vavle body being sealed. It might allow hot air into the cabin all the time if it were pressurized ----- Original Message ----- From: FLYaDIVE To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 7:18 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowl cabin heat cold air scat line AHhhhhh I see your point. So, if a fitting was made around the valve and SCAT tube directed out the cowl flaps you wold lower the cowl temp. Barry On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:55 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote: Remember the cabin heat valve? It is always open to the lower cowl unless cabin heat is fully opened. That's why you sometimes see evidence of heat on the firewall at the bottom of the cabin heat valve where the opening is. There is a lot if air moving thru there and it is very hot. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 6, 2011, at 3:45 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Ned: I am lost... Why would reducing the SCAT tube diameter to the muffler reduce the lower cowl pressure? It is sealed going to the muffler and sealed from the muffler to the cabin. Am I missing something? Barry On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 923te <923te@att.net> wrote: Years ago I began experimenting with reducing the size of the fresh air inlet to the muffler. I found that no more than about a half inch diameter hole is all that is needed to maintain cabin heat with OAT even down in the teens F. Among several benefits one is that the lower cowl is not pressurized as much as it is with the full size opening. This helps with lowering CHTs, enough to see the difference with the gauges and it also reduces cooling drag and keeps the overflow air at the cabin heat valve from burning things up. It also keeps the exhaust pipes from cooling which keeps velocities up to increase scavenging in the powerflow tuned exhaust Why pressurize the lower cowl all the time by continuously dumping unneeded really hot air? Would have been nice if the cabin heat valve were originally placed at the inlet to the muffler. Carb heat was unaffected It is a simple to do for many benefits..... YMMV Ned Sent from my iPhone On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:41 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > The 1" duct does dilute the hot air and reduce the temperature some. How much I don't know but Grumman thought they needed it. The plumbing would have been easier without it as it has been somewhat problematic securing the Y to the engine mount tubing and keeping the metal air outlet duct flange (78/79 Tigers) from sawing into the Y inlet SCAT duct. > > An ideal system will have a mixing valve so that the amount of cold air mixing with the hot cabin heat muff air can be regulated. It's better to have a lot of warm air flow rather that a small amount of very hot air that burns your feet etc. > > Cliff > > On 7/2/2011 11:22 AM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote: >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: bvnj@yahoo.com >> >> Hi Gary, >> >> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line goes to exhaust pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is that without it the hot air is too hot and it could damage the plastic defroster vents and maybe even windshield. >> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to now. Where have you been connecting it to? >> >> Thank you, >> -Boris >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ========== List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D im"> 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle From: FLYaDIVE Boris, Gary & Team: Here are my thoughts on In Vs Out: 1. There is no advantage of putting the silicon baffle material on the outside. Only a disadvantage. - Why? Well if you think about it there is only 0.025 to 0.035" difference in position between inside and out. The thickness of the metal baffle. - The difference is in which direction the NATURAL ROLL of the silicon goes. YOU MUST place the curve of the silicon baffle material to the INSIDE. This is true for BOTH the LENGTH and the WIDTH of the silicon baffle material. - THERE IS A CURVE! ! ! - It's ugly! But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 2. Reinforced Vs Un-Reinforced: - The Un-Reinforced is softer and will bend easier and conform easier. - The Un-Reinforced will also deform easier when the Pop-Rivets are squeezed down. This causes and adds to the scalloping of the silicon baffle material. - The Un-Reinforced will tear easier. 3. The Cure for problems in #2 above: - I use 1/8" thick x 1/2" wide x Required LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material against the aluminum baffle material. - This FLATTENS the silicon baffle material ELIMINATING ALL scalloping as well as stiffening the aluminium baffle material. - So NOW you can use the softer, more flexible Non-Reinforced silicon baffle material. Which will give you a better seal and less ware. - So, why on the inside if you do all the above? It LQQKs a hell of a lot better. - Yes, you can still use the LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material against the aluminum baffle material - On The Out Side. - Oh! I use 5/8" Dia HEAD x 1/8" Dia Shank x 1/2" Long Shank - Pop-Rivets. - To prevent tearing I stitch the over laps in the corners and 'V' cuts with dental floss. Barry On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:43 PM, b v wrote: > > Gary and all, > > > A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air > pressure pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while > if you put them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets. > > So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the > cylinder and rear baffles? > > Thank you, > -Boris > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:38 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Barry, I would challenge any installation you could do with what I do regarding longevity, sealing ability, and looks compared to mine. Inside is just not right. ________________________________ From: FLYaDIVE Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 6:44:29 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: why put baffle seals outside the baffle Boris, Gary & Team: Here are my thoughts on In Vs Out: 1. There is no advantage of putting the silicon baffle material on the outside. Only a disadvantage. * Why? Well if you think about it there is only 0.025 to 0.035" difference in position between inside and out. The thickness of the metal baffle. * The difference is in which direction the NATURAL ROLL of the silicon goes. YOU MUST place the curve of the silicon baffle material to the INSIDE. This is true for BOTH the LENGTH and the WIDTH of the silicon baffle material. * THERE IS A CURVE! ! ! * It's ugly! But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 2. Reinforced Vs Un-Reinforced: * The Un-Reinforced is softer and will bend easier and conform easier. * The Un-Reinforced will also deform easier when the Pop-Rivets are squeezed down. This causes and adds to the scalloping of the silicon baffle material. * The Un-Reinforced will tear easier. 3. The Cure for problems in #2 above: * I use 1/8" thick x 1/2" wide x Required LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material against the aluminum baffle material. * This FLATTENS the silicon baffle material ELIMINATING ALL scalloping as well as stiffening the aluminium baffle material. * So NOW you can use the softer, more flexible Non-Reinforced silicon baffle material. Which will give you a better seal and less ware. * So, why on the inside if you do all the above? It LQQKs a hell of a lot better. * Yes, you can still use the LONG LENGTHS of aluminum strips that function as a CONTINUOUS WASHER to hold down the silicon baffle material against the aluminum baffle material - On The Out Side. * Oh! I use 5/8" Dia HEAD x 1/8" Dia Shank x 1/2" Long Shank - Pop-Rivets. * To prevent tearing I stitch the over laps in the corners and 'V' cuts with dental floss. Barry On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 12:43 PM, b v wrote: > >Gary and all, > > >A number of people suggest that if you put seals on the inside, the air pressure >pushes them against the baffles and provides a better seal, while if you put >them outside, the air will try to escape between the rivets. > >So what are the reasons to put the baffle seals on the outside of the cylinder >and rear baffles? > >Thank you, >-Boris > >========== >List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >========== >http://forums.matronics.com >========== >le, List Admin. >="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >========== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.