Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:40 AM - Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal (Doug Doty)
2. 11:24 AM - Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal (Gary Vogt)
3. 01:01 PM - Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal (flyv35b)
4. 06:40 PM - Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal (Doug Doty)
5. 06:46 PM - Gary, your honest opinion on ..... (Doug Doty)
6. 07:04 PM - Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... (Airport Bum)
7. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal (Gary Vogt)
8. 07:08 PM - Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... (Gary Vogt)
9. 07:21 PM - Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... (Brian Hausknecht)
10. 09:07 PM - Competitive Products (arjays@AOL.COM)
11. 10:16 PM - Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... (Gary L Vogt)
12. 10:35 PM - Re: Competitive Products (Gary L Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal |
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/cowlingchafeseal.php
The welting as I have always called it does not appear to have ever been installed
on my plane, it surely was in the begining. I am talking about where the engine
cowls folds down and lay against the aluminum tabs projecting forward from
the firewall. I can see they have started to wear into the underside of the
doubler on the cowl doors from chaffing together. I guess I am actually going
from memory but was thinking there should be seal/cushion material on the under
side of the cowl doors on the rear, help, what is correct.
1977 AA5B..........
--------
Boats and Planes
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356317#356317
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal |
It's called chafe tape. -I doubt the plane came with any. -I don't use
any on my fiberglass cowling. -On the new cowlings, ones being sold now,
the joggle in the front is low enough to add the tape. -=0A=0AYou can get
some from Aircraft Spruce and install it. -It will only look good immedi
ately after you install it.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom
: Doug Doty <39marinette@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 5:37 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Is this
the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal=0A=0A--> TeamGrumman-List message
posted by: "Doug Doty" <39marinette@gmail.com>=0A=0Ahttp://www.aircraftspru
ce.com/catalog/cspages/cowlingchafeseal.php=0A=0AThe welting as I have alwa
ys called it does not appear to have ever been installed on my plane, it su
rely was in the begining. I am talking about where the engine cowls folds d
own and lay against the aluminum tabs projecting forward from the firewall.
I can see they have started to wear into the underside of the doubler on t
he cowl doors from chaffing together. I guess I am actually going from memo
ry but was thinking there should be seal/cushion material on the under side
of the cowl doors on the rear,- help, what is correct.=0A=0A1977 AA5B...
.......=0A=0A--------=0ABoats and Planes=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic onli
ne here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356317#356317
=
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal |
On 10/30/2011 11:20 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> It's called chafe tape. I doubt the plane came with any. I don't use any
> on my fiberglass cowling. On the new cowlings, ones being sold now, the
> joggle in the front is low enough to add the tape.
>
> You can get some from Aircraft Spruce and install it. It will only look
> good immediately after you install it.
A far better product that is sold by Spruce is Teflon coated fiberglass
anti-chafe tape. Comes in 5 and 10 mil thickness. I have used to on my
Bonanza cowl doors and on Grumman cowlings. It is very slick, thin and
wears very well, but much more expensive than the chafe seal you mentioned.
Cliff
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal |
I was surprised by your answer, do you typically see the tabs wearing thru the
underside of the engine cowls, there is chaf guard on the new lopresti nose and
it caught my attention and made me feel like I remembered seeing it in both
locations on my 79 cheetah years ago and so i made the assumption and am still
curious as to what you recomend to slow the wear into the hood.
--------
Boats and Planes
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356370#356370
Message 5
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| Subject: | Gary, your honest opinion on ..... |
The Lopresti nose bowl and related install components, I think it looks like it
was well done in terms of installation and craftmanship of the parts but really
wonder how good it is for performance and cooling since I bought it installed
on the plane and have no base for comparison. I do not have cht data available.
--------
Boats and Planes
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356371#356371
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... |
The lopresti kit is an expensive exit ramp with an aestheticly improved nose bowl
and a cool looking intake naca duct.
Great marketing, poor service otherwise.
Kevin
Doug Doty <39marinette@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>The Lopresti nose bowl and related install components, I think it looks like it
was well done in terms of installation and craftmanship of the parts but really
wonder how good it is for performance and cooling since I bought it installed
on the plane and have no base for comparison. I do not have cht data available.
>
>--------
>Boats and Planes
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=356371#356371
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Is this the right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal |
If it hits hard enough to cut the cowling, bend it slightly until it doesn'
t.=0A=0AIMHO, if the cowling can't move a little, any bending motions trans
lates into cracks. -I like the cloth tapes. -Just enough drag and it le
ts the cowling move.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Doug
Doty <39marinette@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASent: S
unday, October 30, 2011 6:37 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Is this th
e right stuff ?? colwing cushion seal=0A=0A--> TeamGrumman-List message pos
ted by: "Doug Doty" <39marinette@gmail.com>=0A=0AI was surprised by your an
swer, do you typically see the tabs wearing thru the underside of the engin
e cowls, there is chaf guard on the new lopresti nose and it caught my atte
ntion and made me feel like I remembered seeing it in both locations on my
79 cheetah years ago and so i made the assumption and am still curious as t
o what you recomend to slow the wear into the hood.=0A=0A--------=0ABoats a
nd Planes=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.mat
===============
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... |
The truth is, there is little or no difference between the LoPresti nose bo
wl and a stock nose bowl.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:
Doug Doty <39marinette@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASe
nt: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:43 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Gary, you
g Doty" <39marinette@gmail.com>=0A=0AThe Lopresti nose bowl and related ins
tall components, I think it looks like it was well done in terms of install
ation and craftmanship of the parts but really wonder how good it is for pe
rformance and cooling since I bought it installed on the plane and have no
base for comparison. I do not have cht data available.=0A=0A--------=0ABoat
s and Planes=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.
===============
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... |
Truth, or just your opinion? The Lopresti is a significantly different
design and similar nosebowls are available for many aircraft.
Seems like Gary is very dismissive of a competing product, so take
that opinion with a dose of skepticism. The Lopresti may not have tha
same characteristics as his cowl, but is it an exaggeration to say
there is little or no difference? Bet Lopresti has a different
perspective.
On 10/30/11, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The truth is, there is little or no difference between the LoPresti nose
> bowl and a stock nose bowl.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Doug Doty <39marinette@gmail.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:43 PM
> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Gary, your honest opinion on .....
>
>
> The Lopresti nose bowl and related install components, I think it looks like
> it was well done in terms of installation and craftmanship of the parts but
> really wonder how good it is for performance and cooling since I bought it
> installed on the plane and have no base for comparison. I do not have cht
> data available.
>
> --------
> Boats and Planes
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.===============
--
Brian Hausknecht
www.Brianflys.net (Blog)
www.Brianflys.com (Aerial Photo site)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Competitive Products |
Sigh!
I'm pretty laid back when it comes to competitive products. I think
ultimately the marketplace comes to the truth by itself with no help
needed from pundits. If a product really does not work or has fit
problems or teething issues, you will hear about it. A LOT! (Most
aircraft owners are not shy about sharing their personal
dissatisfaction). I also pretty much discount second hand data. Unless
you were there, I don't want to hear the story second hand. So, for my
part I am very happy at the way our customers applaud our products and
about the feedback we get.
Now as to Gary's cowl, I really like it. Make no mistake, I think he's
done very nice work. He spent a over a decade with this design. I mean,
think about giving TEN years of your life to a project. It takes
passion and dedication. But our cowl products are very different. Roy
LoPresti was the genius behind the Tiger and Cheetah to begin with.
When he went back to improve it, he was very sensitive to what could be
done with the maximum result keeping an eye on cost and engine life. He
designed a full cowl vey similar to Gary's and in fact the Mooney cowl
we sell has all those features. However, Roy decided to take the 80/20
rule to heart and get 80% of the bang for less complexity time and
money. Thus the nose bowl he designed was a 80% solution. Personally, I
like the solution but I must admit I went back to his complete design
with an eye on bringing it to market a few years ago. Gary was finally
completing his and I decided it was a nice way to offer the customer
two options. We usually sell our nosebowl ten sets at a time so I think
that means we're doing our part.
This is a very small industry and we Grumman guys are an even smaller
part of that. In fact, there are only a few hundred really active
Grumman drivers and we can ill afford to lose any of them. This goes
double for parts suppliers and product developers. It's far better to
keep your competition healthy because when you only have only one
choice in any market, it means you have no choice and that is always a
death signal for a market. So, I support Gary (even if he does not like
our products) because competition adjusts prices, improves design and
keeps the market healthy.
Cheers!
Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Gary, your honest opinion on ..... |
Except that I have experience with both.
Bob Arnold bought into the LoPresti hype and installed one on his plane because
he liked to go fast. He found that his plane was the same speed or slower. Closing
thus NACA scoop on the side and taping it over made his plane as fast as
it was before. He noticed no change in CHTs.
There is little or no change in cooling. Regardless of what you hear. The way
the inlet ramp is formed, unless you really take care installing baffle seals,
it doesn't seal off as well as the stock cowling.
There is a slight decrease in cooling drag, but not much. The inlet area is less
than the stock cowling. Smaller inlet area means less cooling drag. Unfortunately,
it also translates into less pressure drop across the cylinders.
The inclusion of a round inlet, in and of itself, does not reduce drag. The investigation
into inlet designs was done at Mississippi State in 1977. They used
round because it made the calculations easier. Just because round inlets are
in vogue doesn't mean they are designed to work well.
A classic illustration is the cowling on a Mooney Ovation. This was a beautiful
inlet. But, it's expensive and difficult to make. Enter the Mooney Acclaim. Same
basic cowling, round inlets, but no diverging inlet. The RV-10 inlet is crappy
too. Oddly enough, the RV-6 and its metal baffles make a pretty good inlet.
The inlet area on the Jaguar cowling is about one half that of the stock cowling.
The difference between the inlets on the Jaguar cowling and the LoPresti nose
bowl is that the Jaguar cowling has a diverging inlet; this recovers the pressure
by slowing down the air. The pressure drop across the cylinders with the
Jaguar cowling is from 1 (slow speed climb) to 5.5 (200 knot dive) inches of
water higher than stock. This means I could have still made the inlets smaller.
Which means there is still cooling drag I can get rid of. The upside is, during
a slow speed climb, there is plenty of cooling air available.
The next time you fly in rain, watch the path the raindrops make on the cowling
as the move front to back. Probably the best wind tunnel flow visualization you
will ever experience. The rain will flow away from the hinge. As it does, it
crosses the crease in the upper cowling at an acute angle. This "flow turning"
creates drag.
I could have scabbed in round inlets onto a stock fiberglass cowling. In fact,
that was the original plan. One step at a time. But, the more I investigated the
drag on the cowling and researched drag reduction from the 30s to current research,
the more I realized I needed to do a clean sheet design.
I also flight tested 5 different designs for the bottom of the cowling. The lower
cowling on a Piper Malibu may look cool, but it's very draggy.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 30, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Brian Hausknecht <bhauskne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Truth, or just your opinion? The Lopresti is a significantly different
> design and similar nosebowls are available for many aircraft.
> Seems like Gary is very dismissive of a competing product, so take
> that opinion with a dose of skepticism. The Lopresti may not have tha
> same characteristics as his cowl, but is it an exaggeration to say
> there is little or no difference? Bet Lopresti has a different
> perspective.
>
> On 10/30/11, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The truth is, there is little or no difference between the LoPresti nose
>> bowl and a stock nose bowl.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Doug Doty <39marinette@gmail.com>
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:43 PM
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Gary, your honest opinion on .....
>>
>>
>> The Lopresti nose bowl and related install components, I think it looks like
>> it was well done in terms of installation and craftmanship of the parts but
>> really wonder how good it is for performance and cooling since I bought it
>> installed on the plane and have no base for comparison. I do not have cht
>> data available.
>>
>> --------
>> Boats and Planes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.===============
>
>
> --
> Brian Hausknecht
> www.Brianflys.net (Blog)
> www.Brianflys.com (Aerial Photo site)
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Competitive Products |
Thanks for chiming in RJ. There is a big difference between approaches to the cowling
issue.
Your's is almost plug and play. Mine, well mine requires a serious investment in
time (i.e., commitment) since it's a compete system. I wish it could be more
of a one size fits all and just installs by removing the old and installing the
new.
Like my eyebrow. I wish it were as easy as removing the old one and installing
the new one. When I quote 5-8 hours installation time, it just doesn't make sense
to most of people.
Once installed, however, maintenance and serviceability are greatly improved over
the OEM equipment; like removing the cowling in 10 minutes.
Now, for the 180 hp fuel injected IO360.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 30, 2011, at 9:05 PM, arjays@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> Sigh!
> I'm pretty laid back when it comes to competitive products. I think ultimately
the marketplace comes to the truth by itself with no help needed from pundits.
If a product really does not work or has fit problems or teething issues, you
will hear about it. A LOT! (Most aircraft owners are not shy about sharing
their personal dissatisfaction). I also pretty much discount second hand data.
Unless you were there, I don't want to hear the story second hand. So, for my
part I am very happy at the way our customers applaud our products and about
the feedback we get.
>
> Now as to Gary's cowl, I really like it. Make no mistake, I think he's done very
nice work. He spent a over a decade with this design. I mean, think about
giving TEN years of your life to a project. It takes passion and dedication. But
our cowl products are very different. Roy LoPresti was the genius behind the
Tiger and Cheetah to begin with. When he went back to improve it, he was very
sensitive to what could be done with the maximum result keeping an eye on cost
and engine life. He designed a full cowl vey similar to Gary's and in fact
the Mooney cowl we sell has all those features. However, Roy decided to take the
80/20 rule to heart and get 80% of the bang for less complexity time and money.
Thus the nose bowl he designed was a 80% solution. Personally, I like the
solution but I must admit I went back to his complete design with an eye on bringing
it to market a few years ago. Gary was finally completing his and I decided
it was a nice way to offer the customer two options. We usually sell our
nosebowl ten sets at a time so I think that means we're doing our part.
>
> This is a very small industry and we Grumman guys are an even smaller part of
that. In fact, there are only a few hundred really active Grumman drivers and
we can ill afford to lose any of them. This goes double for parts suppliers and
product developers. It's far better to keep your competition healthy because
when you only have only one choice in any market, it means you have no choice
and that is always a death signal for a market. So, I support Gary (even if
he does not like our products) because competition adjusts prices, improves design
and keeps the market healthy.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Rj Siegel CEO/LoPresti Aviation Engineering
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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