---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/27/11: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:39 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (flyv35b) 2. 08:58 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (923te) 3. 08:59 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (923te) 4. 10:14 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (Ben Lowther) 5. 10:15 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (flyv35b) 6. 11:16 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (923te) 7. 11:16 AM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (923te) 8. 12:11 PM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (Ben Lowther) 9. 12:55 PM - Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning (flyv35b) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:20 AM PST US From: flyv35b Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: > what engine is in the SR-22? > > I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think > they know the failure mode. > > If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* 923te <923te@att.net> > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM > *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning > > I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to > be. Maybe I found something. > I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo: > http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf > Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or > Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs. > http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T. I think the failure mode is pretty well defined. The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine. TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs. The problems pointed to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures. NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs. No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs. TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former cannot be found. The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts. TAT SB 11-05 "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident have prompted this service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic and physical parts evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft. Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a Cessna T310R. Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a common cause of pre-ignition type combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive combustion process known to affect piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive style) are not occurring. TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs." I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our Lycoming engines. I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit. I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so. If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible. Cliff Cliff ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:22 AM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning Cliff You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks Ned Sent from my iPhone On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b wrote: > > On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: >> what engine is in the SR-22? >> >> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think >> they know the failure mode. >> >> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* 923te <923te@att.net> >> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM >> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning >> >> I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to >> be. Maybe I found something. >> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo: >> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf >> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or >> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs. >> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire > > The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T. > > I think the failure mode is pretty well defined. The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine. > > TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs. The problems pointed to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures. NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs. No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs. > > TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former cannot be found. The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts. > > TAT SB 11-05 > "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident > have prompted this service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic and physical parts > evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of > cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft. > > Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized > SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also > been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a > Cessna T310R. > > Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a common cause of pre-ignition type > combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive > combustion process known to affect piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive > style) are not occurring. > > TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E > massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs." > > I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our Lycoming engines. I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit. I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so. If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible. > > Cliff > > Cliff > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:01 AM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning > Here are 3 references to spark plug resistance limits > One says 5,000 > one says 10,000 > one says 20,000 > > > > =46rom John Schwaner > http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng174.htm > Worn or fouled spark plugs (spark plugs with over 10,000 ohm resistance, 1 ,000 ohm normal) can dramatically raise the voltage required to fire the spa rk plug > > Hmm, found this from our AYA Tech guy > http://www.aircraftowner.com/magazine/tag/Aircraft%20Maintenance%20Restora tion > Jeff Simon: > Champion and Unison will not release official values for a bad plug resist ance, but I was told unofficially that any plug showing 20K Ohms or more sho uld really be scrapped > > > Tempest says above 5,000 Ohms is bad > http://www.electroair.net/pdf/SparkPlugCard.pdf > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:54 AM PST US From: Ben Lowther Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning See Champion Service Letter=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: Cliff =0ASent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark P lugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted b y: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A=0ACliff=0AYou have any experience with spark pl ug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing=0A=0AEngine ha s been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I'v e replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistanc e checks=0A=0A=0ANed=0A=0ASent from my iPhone=0A=0AOn Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b wrote:=0A=0A> --> TeamGrumman-List me ssage posted by: flyv35b =0A> =0A> On 12/24/2011 9: 42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>> what engine is in the SR-22?=0A>> =0A>> I thin k the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think=0A>> the y know the failure mode.=0A>> =0A>> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it 's an entirely different animal.=0A>> =0A>> ------------------------------- -----------------------------------------=0A>> *From:* 923te <923te@att.net >=0A>> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM=0A>> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning=0A>> =0A>> I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to=0A>> be. Maybe I found something.=0A>> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:=0A>> http://w ww.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20re lease%20sept%2023%202011.pdf=0A>> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue wher e they mention that NA or=0A>> Normally aspirated engines have the same fai lure with fine wire plugs.=0A>> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.p hp?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire=0A> =0A> The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT ( via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.=0A> =0A> I think the failure mode is pretty well defined. - The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have als o occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine.=0A> =0A> TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs.- The problems pointed to cracked or damage d insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures.- NA IO-5 5N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the t urbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs.- No crac ked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs.=0A> =0A> TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo -normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former ca nnot be found.- The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts.=0A> =0A> TAT SB 11-05=0A> "A number of field reports, at least two incidents ( on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident=0A> have prompte d this service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic an d physical parts=0A> evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of=0A> cracked ceramic ins ulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a varie ty of aircraft.=0A> =0A> Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized=0A> SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spar k plugs has also=0A> been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a C olumbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a=0A> Cessna T310R.=0A> =0A> Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a co mmon cause of pre-ignition type=0A> combustion events in aircraft piston en gines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive=0A> combusti on process known to affect piston engines. So far as is known, similar issu es with RHB32E (massive=0A> style) are not occurring.=0A> =0A> TAT has neit her seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E=0A> massive spark pl ug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs."=0A> =0A> I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in o ur Lycoming engines.- I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit.- I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as o ften or so.- If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.=0A> =0A> Cliff=0A> =0A> Cliff=0A> =0A> =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle ======== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:03 AM PST US From: flyv35b Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning On 12/27/2011 8:55 AM, 923te wrote: > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te<923te@att.net> > > Cliff > You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing > > Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks > > > Ned Not with the fine wire plugs. But I would think the manufacturer's recommendation would trump others. I've tested massive electrode ones some and just checked 8 used ones out of a Tiger that showed a little over 1000 ohms, except for one that was misfiring and failed to fire at higher air pressures on a plug testing machine. It's resistance was was high at about 14 megohms! As I recall all the plugs that I know were firing OK have had pretty low resistance, like 2K or less. I do know it is very important to have a good contact with the meter probes on the electrodes down inside the on the center electrode. You can get fooled if you are not carefull. Probably need to bead blast the plug before checking the resistance. Obviously, a plug with high resistance will make it more difficult for the mag to fire it and all the other system resistances will be additive. And of course the voltage the mag can generate is a factor and probably decreases some over it's life. Cliff ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:27 AM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning Sent from my iPhone On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Ben Lowther wrote: > See Champion Service Letter > > From: 923te <923te@att.net> > To: Cliff > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning > > > Cliff > You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine w ires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I h ave been experiencing > > Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it u sed to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good r esistance checks > > > Ned > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b wrote: > > > > > On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: > >> what engine is in the SR-22? > >> > >> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't thin k > >> they know the failure mode. > >> > >> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal. > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >> *From:* 923te <923te@att.net> > >> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM > >> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning > >> > >> I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to > >> be. Maybe I found something. > >> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley tur bo: > >> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20 initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf > >> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or > >> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs. > >> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit= fine+wire > > > > The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). Thi s was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory instal led a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T. > > > > I think the failure mode is pretty well defined. The problems are large ly with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engine s, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different combustion chamber than any parallel v alve Lycoming engine. > > > > TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized S TC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs. The problems pointed to cr acked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failur es. NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installe d and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs. No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs. > > > > TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in t he turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the fo rmer cannot be found. The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts. > > > > TAT SB 11-05 > > "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced la ndings), and one (non-injury) accident > > have prompted this service bulletin. The field reports are supported by p hotographic and physical parts > > evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of > > cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plug s installed in a variety of aircraft. > > > > Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in m ost, but not all, turbonormalized > > SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB3 2S fine wire spark plugs has also > > been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a nor mally aspirated Bonanza, and a > > Cessna T310R. > > > > Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a c ommon cause of pre-ignition type > > combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion ev ents are the most destructive > > combustion process known to affect piston engines. So far as is known, s imilar issues with RHB32E (massive > > style) are not occurring. > > > > TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E > > massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massiv e spark plugs." > > > > I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our L ycoming engines. I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time n ow as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added ben efit. I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so. If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which ar e less susceptible. > > > > Cliff > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > tp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matron ics -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp; --> http://www.matronics.co m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" = --> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:52 AM PST US From: 923te <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning Which one there are many Care to give a link? Sent from my iPhone On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Ben Lowther wrote: > See Champion Service Letter > > From: 923te <923te@att.net> > To: Cliff > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning > > > Cliff > You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine w ires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I h ave been experiencing > > Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it u sed to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good r esistance checks > > > Ned > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b wrote: > > > > > On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote: > >> what engine is in the SR-22? > >> > >> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't thin k > >> they know the failure mode. > >> > >> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal. > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >> *From:* 923te <923te@att.net> > >> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM > >> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning > >> > >> I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to > >> be. Maybe I found something. > >> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley tur bo: > >> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20 initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf > >> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or > >> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs. > >> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit= fine+wire > > > > The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). Thi s was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory instal led a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T. > > > > I think the failure mode is pretty well defined. The problems are large ly with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engine s, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different combustion chamber than any parallel v alve Lycoming engine. > > > > TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized S TC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs. The problems pointed to cr acked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failur es. NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installe d and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs. No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs. > > > > TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in t he turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the fo rmer cannot be found. The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts. > > > > TAT SB 11-05 > > "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced la ndings), and one (non-injury) accident > > have prompted this service bulletin. The field reports are supported by p hotographic and physical parts > > evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of > > cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plug s installed in a variety of aircraft. > > > > Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in m ost, but not all, turbonormalized > > SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB3 2S fine wire spark plugs has also > > been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a nor mally aspirated Bonanza, and a > > Cessna T310R. > > > > Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a c ommon cause of pre-ignition type > > combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion ev ents are the most destructive > > combustion process known to affect piston engines. So far as is known, s imilar issues with RHB32E (massive > > style) are not occurring. > > > > TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E > > massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massiv e spark plugs." > > > > I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our L ycoming engines. I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time n ow as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added ben efit. I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so. If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which ar e less susceptible. > > > > Cliff > > > > Cliff > > > > > > > > > > > > tp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matron ics -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp; --> http://www.matronics.co m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" = --> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:15 PM PST US From: Ben Lowther Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning My appology I-attached-a PDF copy, but apparently it didn't attach.=0A -=0AThe link is: http://www.championaerospace.com/assets/Champion-Fine-Wi re-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf=0A =0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 8:14 PM=0A Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning=0A =0A=0AWhich one there are many=0ACare to give a link?=0A=0ASent from my iPh one=0A=0AOn Dec 27, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Ben Lowther w rote:=0A=0A=0ASee Champion Service Letter=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>_________________ _______________=0A> From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A>To: Cliff =0A>Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM=0A>Subject: Re: Tea mGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning=0A> =0A>--> TeamGrumm an-List message posted by: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A>=0A>Cliff=0A>You have a ny experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were o ver 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing=0A>=0A>Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't starte d quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flyin g soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks=0A>=0A>=0A>Ned=0A>=0A>Sent from my iP hone=0A>=0A>On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b w etfiber.com>=0A>> =0A>> On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>> what engine is in the SR-22?=0A>>> =0A>>> I think the change to RHB29E is a gues s. Plug runs cooler. I don't think=0A>>> they know the failure mode.=0A>>> =0A>>> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different anim al.=0A>>> =0A>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- --------------=0A>>> *From:* 923te <923te@att.net>=0A>>> *To:* teamgrumman- list@matronics.com=0A>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM=0A>>> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning=0A>>> =0A>>> I've been looking for reasons why my=0A plane isn't as fast as it us ed to=0A>>> be. Maybe I found something.=0A>>> I found a MSB concerning fin e wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:=0A>>> http://www.taturbo.com /TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2 023%202011.pdf=0A>>> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mentio n that NA or=0A>>> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fi ne wire plugs.=0A>>> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t =59668&hilit=fine+wire=0A>> =0A>> The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-55 0N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.=0A>> =0A>> I think the failure mode is pretty well defined.- The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurr ed on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different=0A combustion cham ber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine.=0A>> =0A>> TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fi ne wire RHB32S spark plugs.- The problems pointed to cracked or damaged i nsulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures.- NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turb o-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs.- No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs.=0A>> =0A>> TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo- normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former can not be found.- The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts.=0A>> =0A>> TAT SB 11-05=0A>> "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident=0A>> have prom pted this=0A service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photograp hic and physical parts=0A>> evidence, and by direct experience. Collectivel y, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of=0A>> cracked cer amic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft.=0A>> =0A>> Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were ins talled as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized=0A>> SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fin e wire spark plugs has also=0A>> been observed in normally aspirated SR22 a ircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a=0A>> Cessna T3 10R.=0A>> =0A>> Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are k nown to be a common cause of pre-ignition type=0A>> combustion events in ai rcraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destruct ive=0A>> combustion process known to affect=0A piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive=0A>> style) are not occurring. =0A>> =0A>> TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB 32E=0A>> massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs."=0A>> =0A>> I don't believe that Grumman owners have a nything to worry about in our Lycoming engines.- I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely hig h cost and I don't see the added benefit.- I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so.- If you feel you have a fouling is sue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.=0A>> =0A>> Cl iff=0A>> =0A>> Cliff=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>>=0Atp://www.matronic s.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics- - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp; --> http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com"=0A=- --> =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning On 12/27/2011 12:07 PM, Ben Lowther wrote: > My appology I attached a PDF copy, but apparently it didn't attach. > The link is: > http://www.championaerospace.com/assets/Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf Seems like everyone wants to blame someone else for the problem! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.