---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/20/12: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:04 AM - Re: Oil consumption has increased...maybe (flyv35b) 2. 06:20 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (flyv35b) 3. 07:32 AM - Re: Cabin heat nylon bushings (Garner Rice) 4. 05:49 PM - Re: Oil consumption has increased...maybe (Dan Baisley) 5. 06:16 PM - Re: Cabin heat nylon bushings (Dan Baisley) 6. 06:45 PM - Re: Cabin heat nylon bushings (Dan Baisley) 7. 06:48 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt) 8. 06:57 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te) 9. 06:58 PM - Re: Oil consumption has increased...maybe (Gary Vogt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:45 AM PST US From: flyv35b Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil consumption has increased...maybe On 2/19/2012 5:06 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > No it's not Cliff... > > It made a lot of money for the guy that holds the STC. > > Barry > Duh! But still worthless (almost) at taking oil vapor out of the crankcase breather and returning the oil back to the engine. If you saw the oil (and water) that is being returned to the engine I don't think you would want the air-oil separator. Heck, run it in to a container and at least that way you can empty it once in awhile. Cliff ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:26 AM PST US From: flyv35b Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption On 2/19/2012 8:09 AM, brian sandberg wrote: > > Compressions have been good at every annual for years, and power output > is still great with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but I'll > recheck for blowby. I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it settles > around 5.5 quarts. It is possible that I simply didn't add as much as I > thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with just > more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've ever > seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming > recommendations. Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem > horrible. Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained > extra oil overboard, although that seems like a stretch. > > Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal. Thanks. > > -Brian 2 qts of oil in 5.5 hrs is getting a bit much, although still meeting Lycoming's specs. I'd say your piston rings and cylinders are getting well worn, unless you are just breaking in new cylinders and the rings never seated properly. Pull your bottom spark plugs and see if they are wet with oil. If so the hand writing is on the wall. Cliff ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:50 AM PST US From: Garner Rice Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings The company that I bought them from back in 2001 was Hartwell Commercial Pr oducts. The tools came from Placentia Ca=2C but the main office is in Chica go. The last phone number I have is 714-993-2752. The tool for the nas1368n 4c is a HT-4 flipping tool. HT-6 for the nas1368n6c. I have bought 20 of t hem and loaned them out for those that were in need. Needless to say=2C th e loaners did not come back. As I get older=2C I cant remember who I loaned them to=2C but I'm sure those that I loaned them to=2C are older than I am . So the real question is for my older customers is=2C did you remember to tighten up the prop bolts before you put that shiney pointed thingy on the front. Garnertic-toc From: teamgrumman@yahoo.com Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings Garner doesn't have one any more. From: 923TE <923te@att.net> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" Sent: Saturday=2C February 18=2C 2012 6:15 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings It's been about 6 years ago but as I recall Garner has a tool that he loans out when you get the bushings and seal material from him. The tool must ha ve worked pretty good because I don't remember it being a difficult repair Ned <>< On Feb 18=2C 2012=2C at 7:52 PM=2C Gary Vogt wrote: OK=2C what is the trick to getting the bushings installed? I tried fabrica ting several different tools. I got one of the bushings to work. The othe r 3 didn't. Is there a better solution for these bushings? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil consumption has increased...maybe From: Dan Baisley It can also be an effective tool to remove crank nose seals. Take an M20 out of service, put it in the freezer overnight, then cut it in half with a bandsaw. Tell me how it is supposed to function as a breather then... DWB On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 6:04 AM, flyv35b wrote: > > On 2/19/2012 5:06 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> No it's not Cliff... >> >> It made a lot of money for the guy that holds the STC. >> >> Barry >> >> > Duh! But still worthless (almost) at taking oil vapor out of the > crankcase breather and returning the oil back to the engine. > > > If you saw the oil (and water) that is being returned to the engine I > don't think you would want the air-oil separator. Heck, run it in to a > container and at least that way you can empty it once in awhile. > > Cliff > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings From: Dan Baisley Hartwell is still around. Don't know if they still have anything to do with this product, they mostly manufacture latches of various kinds... They are a supplier for a project I've been working for several years now... I've been dealing with them (on the engineering side) in regards to this * fantastic* product: http://www.hartwellcorp.com/pdfs/SGcsB787bif.pdf Contact info is here: http://www.hartwellcorp.com/html/contact.html You may have better luck with the phone number listed as "HASCO", that's their spares/aftermarket services division. DWB On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Garner Rice wrote: > The company that I bought them from back in 2001 was Hartwell Commercial > Products. The tools came from Placentia Ca, but the main office is in > Chicago. The last phone number I have is 714-993-2752. The tool for the > nas1368n4c is a HT-4 flipping tool. HT-6 for the nas1368n6c. I have bought > 20 of them and loaned them out for those that were in need. Needless to > say, the loaners did not come back. As I get older, I cant remember who I > loaned them to, but I'm sure those that I loaned them to, are older than I > am. So the real question is for my older customers is, did you remember to > tighten up the prop bolts before you put that shiney pointed thingy on the > front. > > Garner > tic-toc > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 19:04:16 -0800 > From: teamgrumman@yahoo.com > > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > > > Garner doesn't have one any more. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* 923TE <923te@att.net> > *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > *Sent:* Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings > > It's been about 6 years ago but as I recall Garner has a tool that he > loans out when you get the bushings and seal material from him. The tool > must have worked pretty good because I don't remember it being a difficult > repair > > Ned > > <>< > > On Feb 18, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > > OK, what is the trick to getting the bushings installed? I tried > fabricating several different tools. I got one of the bushings to work. > The other 3 didn't. > > Is there a better solution for these bushings? > > * > > * > > > * > > List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings From: Dan Baisley On second look, it appears that they spun that part of the product line off as Hartwell-Dzus... which then became Southco-Dzus, which then renamed itself Southco. It appears that they still make a grommet similar to the NAS1368, and they mention an installation tool on their catalog page. http://www.southco.com/product/class.aspx?cid=7538 DWB On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Dan Baisley wrote: > Hartwell is still around. Don't know if they still have anything to do > with this product, they mostly manufacture latches of various kinds... They > are a supplier for a project I've been working for several years now... > I've been dealing with them (on the engineering side) in regards to this * > fantastic* product: http://www.hartwellcorp.com/pdfs/SGcsB787bif.pdf > > Contact info is here: http://www.hartwellcorp.com/html/contact.html > > You may have better luck with the phone number listed as "HASCO", that's > their spares/aftermarket services division. > > DWB > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Garner Rice wrote: > >> The company that I bought them from back in 2001 was Hartwell Commercial >> Products. The tools came from Placentia Ca, but the main office is in >> Chicago. The last phone number I have is 714-993-2752. The tool for the >> nas1368n4c is a HT-4 flipping tool. HT-6 for the nas1368n6c. I have bought >> 20 of them and loaned them out for those that were in need. Needless to >> say, the loaners did not come back. As I get older, I cant remember who I >> loaned them to, but I'm sure those that I loaned them to, are older than I >> am. So the real question is for my older customers is, did you remember to >> tighten up the prop bolts before you put that shiney pointed thingy on the >> front. >> >> Garner >> tic-toc >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 19:04:16 -0800 >> From: teamgrumman@yahoo.com >> >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings >> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >> >> >> Garner doesn't have one any more. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* 923TE <923te@att.net> >> *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" >> *Sent:* Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:15 PM >> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cabin heat nylon bushings >> >> It's been about 6 years ago but as I recall Garner has a tool that he >> loans out when you get the bushings and seal material from him. The tool >> must have worked pretty good because I don't remember it being a difficult >> repair >> >> Ned >> >> <>< >> >> On Feb 18, 2012, at 7:52 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: >> >> OK, what is the trick to getting the bushings installed? I tried >> fabricating several different tools. I got one of the bushings to work. >> The other 3 didn't. >> >> Is there a better solution for these bushings? >> >> * >> >> * >> >> >> >> * >> >> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> * >> >> * >> >> * >> >> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:34 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. -These guides are designed to b e run with a minimum clearance.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:08 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Cons umption=0A =0A=0AWould have been nice if this model of the =0ALycoming had some valve stem seals. Might have helped with too much oil capor in =0Athe crankcase and maybe less coking on the stems. Gee even the lowly VW and =0A Corvair had valve stem seals!=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Gary Vogt =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, February 19 , 2012 1:19 PM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>=0A> =0A>I played with this a little also. -I did the 'inside the cowl' trick . -Problem is, the engine needs to be evacuated. -I ran the breather t o the airbox on my Cheetah for a while. -I also thought about a PVC valv e and then to the rocker box. -Too much aggravation. -=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0A>To: "te amgrumman-list@matronics.com" =0A>Sent: S unday, February 19, 2012 9:04 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Co nsumption=0A>=0A>=0A>Brian,=0A>I have been experimenting with placement of the breather tube. I haven't finished but I have found that it makes a dif ference on "overboard" oil. I left the whole breather tube inside the cowl near the bottom and lost very little oil. There was just a very little bi t puddled just below the breather tube exit on the cowl floor. With the tu be end flush with the outside of the cowl it loses more, enough oil to tra ck the belly all the way to the tail. With it out about an inch it loses l ess oil than that. That's the extent of my testing so far. My plane is sim ilar to yours where it settles around 6 qts but that is also dependent on where the breather exit is. I'm thinking that the best place for the breat her exit will be somewhere in front of the exit ramp inside the cowl where I expect the pressure to be slightly higher than on the outside of the co wl.=0A>Regards,=0A>Ned=0A>=0A><><=0A>=0A>On Feb 19, 2012, at 10:09 AM, bria n sandberg wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A>>=0A>>Compressions h ave been good at every annual for years, and =0A power output is still g reat with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but =0A I'll recheck for blowby.- I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it =0A settles aroun d 5.5 quarts.- It is possible that I simply didn't add as =0A much as I thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with =0A just more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've =0A ever seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming =0A recommendations.- Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem =0A horrible.- Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained =0A extra oil overboard, although that seems like a =0A stretch.=0A>>- =0A>>Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal.- =0A Thanks.=0A>>-=0A>>- Brian=0A>>=0A>>===========0At">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A========== cs.com == ======== matronics.com/contribution=0A======= === =0A>_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumma n-List">http:/========= =0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? TeamGrumman-List=0Ahref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matro nics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matron ==================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:42 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption You might want to run that one by your buddy Ken over at Lycon. I hear they run seals on sodium filled valves when using gapless rings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Vogt To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:47 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to be run with a minimum clearance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: 923te <923te@att.net> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:08 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Would have been nice if this model of the Lycoming had some valve stem seals. Might have helped with too much oil capor in the crankcase and maybe less coking on the stems. Gee even the lowly VW and Corvair had valve stem seals! ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Vogt To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:19 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption I played with this a little also. I did the 'inside the cowl' trick. Problem is, the engine needs to be evacuated. I ran the breather to the airbox on my Cheetah for a while. I also thought about a PVC valve and then to the rocker box. Too much aggravation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: 923TE <923te@att.net> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:04 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Brian, I have been experimenting with placement of the breather tube. I haven't finished but I have found that it makes a difference on "overboard" oil. I left the whole breather tube inside the cowl near the bottom and lost very little oil. There was just a very little bit puddled just below the breather tube exit on the cowl floor. With the tube end flush with the outside of the cowl it loses more, enough oil to track the belly all the way to the tail. With it out about an inch it loses less oil than that. That's the extent of my testing so far. My plane is similar to yours where it settles around 6 qts but that is also dependent on where the breather exit is. I'm thinking that the best place for the breather exit will be somewhere in front of the exit ramp inside the cowl where I expect the pressure to be slightly higher than on the outside of the cowl. Regards, Ned <>< On Feb 19, 2012, at 10:09 AM, brian sandberg wrote: Compressions have been good at every annual for years, and power output is still great with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but I'll recheck for blowby. I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it settles around 5.5 quarts. It is possible that I simply didn't add as much as I thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with just more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've ever seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming recommendations. Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem horrible. Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained extra oil overboard, although that seems like a stretch. Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal. Thanks. -Brian ========= t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= _blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http:/== ====== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matro=================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:38 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil consumption has increased...maybe you give it too much credit=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fro m: flyv35b =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil consumption has increased...maybe=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message p osted by: flyv35b =0A=0AOn 2/18/2012 7:02 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A=0A> Check compressions for blow-by. An air-oil separator wil l only cost you=0A> money. I have 3 of the M-20 air-oil separators. I'd sel =============== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.