Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:21 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te)
2. 09:57 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te)
3. 09:59 AM - Carl and Harriett (923te)
4. 10:12 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (flyv35b)
5. 10:36 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt)
6. 10:37 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt)
7. 10:46 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te)
8. 01:16 PM - Straight Bore Cylinders (923te)
9. 03:12 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (flyv35b)
10. 03:58 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (FLYaDIVE)
11. 04:15 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Linn Walters)
12. 04:50 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (923te)
13. 05:00 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Linn Walters)
14. 05:03 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (FLYaDIVE)
15. 06:06 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Bob Steward)
16. 06:32 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt)
17. 07:00 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (FLYaDIVE)
18. 07:05 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (923TE)
19. 07:30 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Gary Vogt)
20. 07:32 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Gary Vogt)
21. 07:38 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt)
22. 07:39 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and
have a very strong argument in the following articles:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
Especially this article:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the
exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool
them.
I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22
isn't it?
Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary Vogt
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly
now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the
certified Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have
sealed both. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on
it.
Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started
using the seals
Check it out here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
See the red seal?
Ned
<><
On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
<flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed
to
>> be run with a minimum clearance.
>
> Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would
work.
>
>
>
>
<pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier
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--> <a
href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matroni
cs.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution"><a
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
</b></font></pre>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
I think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create so m
uch more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum probably t
ranslates to more HP wouldn't you think?
On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. N
ot enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>
> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>
> Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certif
ied Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed bo
th. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
>
> Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started usi
ng the seals
> Check it out here:
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
>
> See the red seal?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ned
>
> <><
>
> On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> >> be run with a minimum clearance.
> >
> > Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> <pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier 3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= --> <a href=3D"
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Carl and Harriett |
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
On 2/22/2012 9:56 AM, 923te wrote:
> I think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create
> so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum
> probably translates to more HP wouldn't you think?
>
> On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com
> <mailto:teamgrumman@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly
>> now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>>
Yeah, the more vacuum the more intake charge you can pull into the
cylinder and therefore more power. This would likely tend to pull more
oil past the intake valve stem if the guides don't fit pretty tight
(which they don't compared to watercooled engine). I wonder how much
more vacuum they actually pull - 1" hg. 2" hg?
Cliff
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valves
, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say. -=0A=0ATh
ey are wrong. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the
valves. -Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is
intentionally limited.=0A=0AThe reality is, sodium filled valves do their w
ork by direct metal to metal contact. -Or as close to that as possible.
-=0A=0AThe intakes could have seals. -The intake (originally) used a dr
ibble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the ste
m, very little was sucked in. -=0A=0AThe exhaust doesn't need them becaus
e the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem. -What little oil is squi
rted by the rocker is just enough to keep the stem lubricated. -=0A=0ALyc
oming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. -It doesn't hel
p. -Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. -Had that corporat
e decision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines w
ould have the retro fit.=0A=0A30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to t
alk to one of the engineers. -I wanted to know which rocker went on which
valve. -You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the
other way on the other side. -Both local AP/IAs didn't know. -I eventu
ally talked to 6 engineers. -The last one gave me a phone number for a gu
y who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' -His name was Wayne. -Nice
guy. -He told me about the work done on the engines-'in the old days'
-and told me the correct order for the rockers. -My engine had been ass
embled wrong at the factory.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr
om: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wed
nesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Cons
umption=0A =0A=0A =0ABill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interest
ing reading and have =0Aa very strong argument in the following articles:
=0Ahttp://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html=0A-=0AEspecially this arti
cle:=0Ahttp://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm=0Aabout the Lycoming-T
IO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide =0AKit=0A-=0ATheir arguments s
eem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the =0Aexhaust valves with
more oil flow onto the stems.=0A-=0AI agree that the valve stem seals cer
tainly go =0Acounter to trying to cool them. =0AI guess it just depends on
what you are trying =0Ato do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?=0A-=0ASure would
be great to see some R&D by =0ALycolming on these issues. =0A----- Original
Message ----- =0A>From: Gary Vogt =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
=0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-
List: Oil Consumption=0A>=0A>=0A>Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at
the valve stem' seem silly now. -Not enough exposed to do any extra cool
ing.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: 923TE <923te
@att.net>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matron
ics.com> =0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Tea
mGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>=0A>Yes I would be most =0A interested i
n sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal =0A both a
nd the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon =0A
even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>=0A>Apparently with Gapless
=0A rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals=0A>Che
ck it out =0A here:=0A>=0A>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthrea
d.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2=0A>=0A>http://www.
vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rin
gs+seals=0A>=0A>See =0A the red seal?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Ned=0A>=0A><>
<=0A>=0A>On =0A Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
minetfiber.com>=0A>> =0A>> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>> Sea
ls won't work =0A on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to=0A
>>> be run with =0A a minimum clearance.=0A>> =0A>> Of course.- I think
he meant the =0A intake valves, where they would work.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>>
=0A>> =0A>=0A><pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier
=0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D= =0A --> <a href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-
List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://for
ums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution"><a href="http:
//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A>=0A></b></font></pre>
====================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
I've asked Ken to elaborate. -He'll get back to me.=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0A From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@
matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, Februar
y 22, 2012 9:56 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A =0A
=0AI think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create
so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum proba
bly translates to more HP wouldn't you think?=0A=0AOn Feb 21, 2012, at 12:3
7 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0AKinda makes that who
le 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. -Not enough exposed
to do any extra cooling.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A
> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <team
grumman-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM=0A
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A> =0A>Yes I would be most
interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals sea
l both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lyc
on even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>=0A>Apparently with Gapl
ess rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals=0A>Check
it out here:=0A>=0A>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t
=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2=0A>=0A>http://www.vansair
force.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seal
s=0A>=0A>See the red seal?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Ned=0A>=0A><><=0A>=0A>On
Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>>
>> =0A>> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>> Seals won't work on s
odium filled valves. These guides are designed to=0A>>> be run with a minim
um clearance.=0A>> =0A>> Of course.- I think he meant the intake valves,
where they would work.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>=0A><pre><b><font size=
3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier=0A3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= --> <a href=3D"http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.
=========================0A
========================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
Gary,
Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone
On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valve
s, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
>
> They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the
valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is in
tentionally limited.
>
> The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to meta
l contact. Or as close to that as possible.
>
> The intakes could have seals. The intake (originally) used a dribble meth
od to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very lit
tle was sucked in.
>
> The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up
the stem. What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep
the stem lubricated.
>
> Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. It doesn't h
elp. Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. Had that corporate d
ecision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would
have the retro fit.
>
> 30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers.
I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. You see, my <700 hr Che
etah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. Both
local AP/IAs didn't know. I eventually talked to 6 engineers. The last on
e gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.
' His name was Wayne. Nice guy. He told me about the work done on the eng
ines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers. My en
gine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
>
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>
> Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have
a very strong argument in the following articles:
> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
>
> Especially this article:
> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
> about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
>
> Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhau
st valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
>
> I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool t
hem.
> I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn'
t it?
>
> Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary Vogt
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>
> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. N
ot enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>
> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>
> Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certif
ied Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed bo
th. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
>
> Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started usi
ng the seals
> Check it out here:
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
>
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
>
> See the red seal?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ned
>
> <><
>
> On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> >> be run with a minimum clearance.
> >
> > Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> <pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier 3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= --> <a href=3D"
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matron
ics.com/contribution"><a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" targ
et="=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> </b></font></pre>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navitarget="_blank" href="http://forums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matron-->
>
==========================
=========
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>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Straight Bore Cylinders |
Any consensus here on straight bore cylinders?
http://www.chuckneyent.com/cylinderoverhaul.asp
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
On 2/22/2012 1:15 PM, 923te wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te<923te@att.net>
>
> Any consensus here on straight bore cylinders?
> http://www.chuckneyent.com/cylinderoverhaul.asp
>
You tryng to reduce the friction and increase HP, Ned? <G>
Chunk told me several years ago that he has run the big bore Continental
cylinders with and without choke on a dyno and as I recall the straight
bore produced a little mre HP. He didn't think the choke is needed if
the cylinder runs cool as it therefore doesn't expand as much at the top
and remains pretty straight.
Another question for Ken at Lycon.
If you are talking about stock Lycoming cylinders all the nitrided
cylinders have choke whereas the old 150 hp plain steel cylinders did not.
Cliff
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
>
> Any consensus here on straight bore cylinders?
>> http://www.chuckneyent.com/**cylinderoverhaul.asp<http://www.chuckneyent.com/cylinderoverhaul.asp>
>>
>> Ned:
The requirement to Choke or not to choke is up to the cylinder manufacture
and the STC. Years back when I upgraded my O-320 there were two STC out
there. Bill Scott's STC is a choked cylinder. The other fellow was not.
The reason for choking is to keep the compression high as the cylinders
heat up.
All cylinders expand as they heat up. The most heat is in the area of the
piston stroke. SO... If you start with a Stright cylinder and say a
compression ration of 8.5:1; when the cylinder heats up the cylinder/barrel
will expand. BEYOND stright. So the compression ration will drop 8.45:1
who knows!!! But it will and there will be room for the rings (top ring)
to loosen up at the split. Lower compression equals lower HP.
So, if you know there is going to be an expansion why not compensate for it
with a little choke. REMEMBER the choke is there for a very short time.
Once the cylinder/barrel is hot it expands to stright.
Now... What about the NAY NOZZLE? I have them, anyone else?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Now... What about the NAY NOZZLE? I have them, anyone else?
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
OK, I'll bite. What's a NAY NOZZLE???
Linn
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
Sprays oil on the cam
http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp
----- Original Message -----
From: Linn Walters
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
<pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Now... What about the NAY NOZZLE? I have them, anyone else?
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
OK, I'll bite. What's a NAY NOZZLE???
Linn
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
Ah yes. Well, I have them in my Pitts engine (O-360-A4A). When I had
the departing prop problem and rebuilt the engine I had the case
overhauled and they had to mod the case for them. Mine are aimed at the
pistons for cooling though. I suppose some oil is sprayed on the cam.
Linn
On 2/22/2012 7:53 PM, 923te wrote:
> Sprays oil on the cam
> http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Linn Walters <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:15 PM
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
>
> <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net <mailto:pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>>
>
> On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> >
> > Now... What about the NAY NOZZLE? I have them, anyone else?
> >
> > Barry
> > "Chop'd Liver"
> OK, I'll bite. What's a NAY nbsp; Features Chat,
> http://www.mnbsp; via the Web
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>
> _p; generous bsp;
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
Hi Linn:
I mentioned the NAY NOZZLE only because the link that Ned posted was to
Chuck Nay. It is a great idea. Inside the engine case there are oil
galleys. When the engine is opened for OH you drill and tap into four of
these galleys, two on each side of the engine. Into these you thread a
SPRAY NOZZLE (Nay Nozzle).
The purpose is to SPRAY oil onto the Crank Shaft and the Cam Shaft. This
is because the engine is not what is called a Wet Crank... ONLY oil that is
splashed around gets on the Crank and Cam Shafts. The Nay Nozzle improves
this oil spray tremendously. The WORSE part of our engines next to the
poor oil flow is the lack of oil flow to the cam. The cam is a VERY high
ware area of our engines. I hope the Nay Nozzle solves some of this
problem.
Thanks for asking Linn,
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>>
>> Now... What about the NAY NOZZLE? I have them, anyone else?
>>
>> Barry
>> "Chop'd Liver"
>>
> OK, I'll bite. What's a NAY NOZZLE???
> Linn
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
Chuck Ney has an STC to add oil squirting nozzles in the case to flood the cam
with oil.
--Bob Steward
Sent from Samsung mobile
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
he was old 28 years ago. -not sure if I have the ability to contact him a
t this point.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: 923te <923t
e@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matroni
cs.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamG
rumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A =0A=0AGary,=0AAny way to get Wayne here on
the list?=0AIt'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)=0AWe need to
get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone=0A=0AOn
Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0A
=0AI could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled val
ves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say. -=0A>
=0A>=0A>They are wrong. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coki
ng on the valves. -Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium
valves is intentionally limited.=0A>=0A>=0A>The reality is, sodium filled v
alves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. -Or as close to tha
t as possible. -=0A>=0A>=0A>The intakes could have seals. -The intake (
originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very
little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in. -=0A>=0A>=0A>The exhau
st doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem.
-What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep the st
em lubricated. -=0A>=0A>=0A>Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valv
es in a Mooney. -It doesn't help. -Their research consisted of a corpor
ate meeting. -Had that corporate decision not been a waste of manpower, t
ime, and money, all new engines would have the retro fit.=0A>=0A>=0A>30 yea
rs ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. -I wa
nted to know which rocker went on which valve. -You see, my <700 hr Cheet
ah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. -Bot
h local AP/IAs didn't know. -I eventually talked to 6 engineers. -The l
ast one gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the ol
d days.' -His name was Wayne. -Nice guy. -He told me about the work d
one on the engines-'in the old days'-and told me the correct order for
the rockers. -My engine had been assembled wrong at the factory.=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012
9:24 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have
=0Aa very strong argument in the following articles:=0A>http://egaa.home.mi
ndspring.com/valves.html=0A>-=0A>Especially this article:=0A>http://egaa.
home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm=0A>about the Lycoming-TIO-540-AF1A Oil Co
oled Exhaust Valve Guide =0AKit=0A>-=0A>Their arguments seem to be verifi
ed by what Lycoming did to cool the =0Aexhaust valves with more oil flow on
to the stems.=0A>-=0A>I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go =0Ac
ounter to trying to cool them. =0A>I guess it just depends on what you are
trying =0Ato do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?=0A>-=0A>Sure would be great to
see some R&D by =0ALycolming on these issues. =0A>----- Original Message -
---- =0A>>From: Gary Vogt =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sen
t: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:
Oil Consumption=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the
valve stem' seem silly now. -Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling
.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: 923TE <923
te@att.net>=0A>>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@mat
ronics.com> =0A>>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM=0A>>Subject: Re:
TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>>=0A>>Yes I would be most =0A inter
ested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal =0A
both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lyco
n =0A even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>>=0A>>Apparently wit
h Gapless =0A rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the sea
ls=0A>>Check it out =0A here:=0A>>=0A>>http://www.vansairforce.com/communi
ty/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2=0A>>
=0A>>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlig
ht=Gapless+rings+seals=0A>>=0A>>See =0A the red seal?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>
>=0A>>=0A>>Ned=0A>>=0A>><><=0A>>=0A>>On =0A Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv
35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:=0A>>=0A>>> --> TeamGrumman-List messag
e posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=0A>>> =0A>>> On 2/20/2012 6:4
7 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>>> Seals won't work =0A on sodium filled valves
. These guides are designed to=0A>>>> be run with =0A a minimum clearance.
=0A>>> =0A>>> Of course.- I think he meant the =0A intake valves, where
they would work.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>=0A>><pre><b><font size=
3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier =0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0A --> <a href=3D"http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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nics.com/contribution"><a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=0A>>=0A>></b></font></pre>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>http://www.matronics
.com/Navitarget="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://foru
ms.matron--> ====================
================0A-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ==============
======================0Aums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A===========
=========================0A
http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n=0A=======================
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====
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
Gary said:
They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the
valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is
intentionally limited.
The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal
contact. Or as close to that as possible.
Gary:
Now that does not make sense. I don't think anyone is around that was
involved in the original design of the Lycoming engine. The idea of a
sodium filled valve and the extra transfer of heat because of the sodium is
feasible but has proven short of goal. Our problem has always been over
heating of the exhaust valve and coking on the stem of that valve.
Continental uses solid stem valves and their failure mode is the same as
Lycoming. There is no way of collecting data as to how many Lycoming and
Continental valve failures there are.
BUT! Isn't it COKING on the valve that causes the problem? AND... What is
COKING? Coking is the BURNING of OIL with the subsequent build up that
causes the valve to stick. When they stick in the DOWN position the piston
comes up to smash the valve head and bend the valve shank.
SO! HOW WOULD ONE PREVENT THE COKING?
BY LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE THAT CAUSES THE COKING.
AND HOW WOULD ONE DO THAT?
BY INCREASING THE COOLING BY INCREASING THE OIL FLOW OVER THE VALVE STEM.
No, I'm not yelling, just emphasing the point.
Now, if this does not make sense, please explain why. I cannot accept the
idea that minimal oil for heat transfer is the way to go or the intent.
Barry
Here are my thoughts:
No mater how good or bad the heat transfer is between metal to meatal
(something OIL is the medium that carries the heat away.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
Gary,
Are you the reason Lycoming came out with just using the push rod with an oi
l gallery in it on all valves?
<><
On Feb 22, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> he was old 28 years ago. not sure if I have the ability to contact him at
this point.
>
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>
> Gary,
> Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
> It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
> We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all go
ne
>
> On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valv
es, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
>>
>> They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on th
e valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is i
ntentionally limited.
>>
>> The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to met
al contact. Or as close to that as possible.
>>
>> The intakes could have seals. The intake (originally) used a dribble met
hod to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very li
ttle was sucked in.
>>
>> The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases u
p the stem. What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to kee
p the stem lubricated.
>>
>> Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. It doesn't h
elp. Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. Had that corporate d
ecision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would
have the retro fit.
>>
>> 30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers.
I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. You see, my <700 hr Ch
eetah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. Bot
h local AP/IAs didn't know. I eventually talked to 6 engineers. The last o
ne gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days
.' His name was Wayne. Nice guy. He told me about the work done on the en
gines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers. My e
ngine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
>>
>> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>>
>> Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and hav
e a very strong argument in the following articles:
>> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
>>
>> Especially this article:
>> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
>> about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
>>
>> Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exha
ust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
>>
>> I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool t
hem.
>> I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn
't it?
>>
>> Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Gary Vogt
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>>
>> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now.
Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>>
>> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>>
>> Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certi
fied Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed b
oth. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
>>
>> Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started us
ing the seals
>> Check it out here:
>>
>> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
>>
>> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
>>
>> See the red seal?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ned
>>
>> <><
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>>
>
>> >
>> > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
>> >> be run with a minimum clearance.
>> >
>> > Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> <pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier 3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
Often wondered about that too. -Seems to me that with todays ability to m
achine to extreme tolerances, making a round cylinder with straight walls a
nd compatible rings only makes sense. -=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: Team Grumman <teamgrumman-list
@matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 1:15 PM=0ASubject: Te
amGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message
posted by: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A=0AAny consensus here on straight bore c
===============
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Straight Bore Cylinders |
I asked Ken about these several years ago. -He wasn't a believer.=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bell
south.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, Februar
y 22, 2012 4:59 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
=0A =0A=0AAh yes.- Well, I have them in my Pitts engine (O-360-A4A).- W
hen I had the departing prop problem and rebuilt the engine I had the case
overhauled and they had to mod the case for them.- Mine are aimed at the
pistons for cooling though.- I suppose some oil is sprayed on the cam.=0A
Linn=0A=0A=0AOn 2/22/2012 7:53 PM, 923te wrote: =0A =0A>Sprays oil on the c
am=0A>http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp=0A>----- Original Message --
--- =0A>>From: Linn Walters =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>>Se
nt: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:15 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:
Straight Bore Cylinders=0A>>=0A>>=0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by
: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>=0A>>=0A>>On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, F
LYaDIVE wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>> Now...- What about the NAY NOZZLE?- I have t
hem, anyone=0A else?=0A>>>=0A>>> Barry=0A>>> "Chop'd Liver"=0A>>OK,
I'll bite.- What's a NAY nbsp;-------- Features Chat, htt
p://www.mnbsp;----- via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.c
om">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>>_p;-------- generous bs
p;-------------------=0Ahref="http:
//www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=====
============
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
Look up the original work by Sam Heron. -The oil does not do the cooling.
-At all. -You only want a minimum of oil on the valve stems for lubric
ation. -If you're flooding the stem with oil, some will get into the guid
e and the heat will cook it. -In sodium filled valves, the cooling is don
e through the valve seat and valve guide.=0A=0ASodium filled valves are use
d in a lot of top fuel dragsters. -For a reason.=0A=0A=0A________________
________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-l
ist@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:59 PM=0ASubject:
Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A =0A=0AGary said:=0A>They are wrong
. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. -O
il flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionall
y limited.=0A>=0A>=0A>The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by
direct metal to metal contact. -Or as close to that as possible.-=0A
=0A=0AGary:=0A=0ANow that does not make sense. -I don't think anyone is a
round that was involved in the-original-design of the Lycoming engine.
-The idea of a sodium filled valve and the extra transfer of heat because
of the sodium is-feasible-but has proven short of goal. -Our problem
has always been over heating of the exhaust valve and coking on the stem o
f that valve. -Continental-uses solid stem valves and their failure mod
e is the same as Lycoming. - There is no way of collecting data as to how
many Lycoming and Continental valve failures there are.=0ABUT! -Isn't it
COKING on the valve that causes the problem? -AND... What is COKING? -
Coking is the BURNING of OIL with the-subsequent build up that causes the
valve to stick. -When they stick in the DOWN position the piston comes u
p to smash the valve head and bend the valve shank.=0ASO! -HOW WOULD ONE
PREVENT THE COKING? -=0ABY LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE THAT CAUSES THE COKIN
G.=0AAND HOW WOULD ONE DO THAT?=0ABY INCREASING THE COOLING BY INCREASING T
HE OIL FLOW OVER THE VALVE STEM. -No, I'm not yelling, just-emphasing
-the point.=0A-=0ANow, if this does not make sense, please explain why.
-I cannot accept the idea that-minimal-oil for heat transfer is the
way to go or the intent.=0A=0ABarry=0A=0AHere are my thoughts:=0ANo mater h
ow good or bad the heat transfer is between metal to meatal (something OIL
==========
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Consumption |
Not likely. -However, it wasn't long after talking to Lycoming that they
came out with a common rocker for both intake and exhaust.=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0A From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-
list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, Fe
bruary 22, 2012 7:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A
=0A=0AGary,=0AAre you the reason Lycoming came out with just using the pus
h rod with an oil gallery in it on all valves?=0A=0A<><=0A=0AOn Feb 22, 201
2, at 8:32 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0Ahe was old
28 years ago. -not sure if I have the ability to contact him at this poin
t.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: 923te <923te@a
tt.net>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics
.com> =0A>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamG
rumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A> =0A>=0A>Gary,=0A>Any way to get Wayne here
on the list?=0A>It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)=0A>We n
eed to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone=0A
>=0A>On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
=0A>=0A>=0A>I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium f
illed valves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
-=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>They are wrong. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem
causes coking on the valves. -Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine w
ith sodium valves is intentionally limited.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The reality is, s
odium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. -Or a
s close to that as possible. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The intakes could have seals
. -The intake (originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a mi
nimum. With very little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in. -=0A>
>=0A>>=0A>>The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaus
t gases up the stem. -What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just e
nough to keep the stem lubricated. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Lycoming had a knee je
rk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. -It doesn't help. -Their researc
h consisted of a corporate meeting. -Had that corporate decision not been
a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would have the retro
fit.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one
of the engineers. -I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve.
-You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the other w
ay on the other side. -Both local AP/IAs didn't know. -I eventually tal
ked to 6 engineers. -The last one gave me a phone number for a guy who wo
rked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' -His name was Wayne. -Nice guy.
-He told me about the work done on the engines-'in the old days'-and
told me the correct order for the rockers. -My engine had been assembled
wrong at the factory.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>________________________________
=0A>> From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
=0A>>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumma
n-List: Oil Consumption=0A>> =0A>>=0A>> =0A>>Bill Marvel and Bill Scott mak
e for some very interesting reading and have =0Aa very strong argument in t
he following articles:=0A>>http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html=0A>>
-=0A>>Especially this article:=0A>>http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine
2.htm=0A>>about the Lycoming-TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide
=0AKit=0A>>-=0A>>Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did
to cool the =0Aexhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.=0A>>-
=0A>>I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go =0Acounter to trying to
cool them. =0A>>I guess it just depends on what you are trying =0Ato do. I
t's a catch 22 isn't it?=0A>>-=0A>>Sure would be great to see some R&D by
=0ALycolming on these issues. =0A>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>From
: Gary Vogt =0A>>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday,
February 21, 2012 12:37 PM=0A>>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consum
ption=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve s
tem' seem silly now. -Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>________________________________=0A>>> From: 923TE <923te
@att.net>=0A>>>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matr
onics.com> =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM=0A>>>Subject: Re
: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>>>=0A>>>Yes I would be most =0A in
terested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal
=0A both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that
Lycon =0A even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>>>=0A>>>Apparent
ly with Gapless =0A rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using t
he seals=0A>>>Check it out =0A here:=0A>>>=0A>>>http://www.vansairforce.co
m/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page
=2=0A>>>=0A>>>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56
297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals=0A>>>=0A>>>See =0A the red seal?=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ned=0A>>>=0A>>><><=0A>>>=0A>>>On =0A Feb 21,
2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>> --
>> =0A>>>> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>>>> Seals won't work
=0A on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to=0A>>>>> be run w
ith =0A a minimum clearance.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Of course.- I think he meant
the =0A intake valves, where they would work.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>
>>> =0A>>>=0A>>><pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courie
r =0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D= =0A --> <a href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumm
an-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=
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p://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A>>>=0A>>></b></font></pre></
html>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>http://www.matronics.com/Navitarget="_blank" href
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