---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/22/12: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:21 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te) 2. 09:57 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te) 3. 09:59 AM - Carl and Harriett (923te) 4. 10:12 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (flyv35b) 5. 10:36 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt) 6. 10:37 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt) 7. 10:46 AM - Re: Oil Consumption (923te) 8. 01:16 PM - Straight Bore Cylinders (923te) 9. 03:12 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (flyv35b) 10. 03:58 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (FLYaDIVE) 11. 04:15 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Linn Walters) 12. 04:50 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (923te) 13. 05:00 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Linn Walters) 14. 05:03 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (FLYaDIVE) 15. 06:06 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Bob Steward) 16. 06:32 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt) 17. 07:00 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (FLYaDIVE) 18. 07:05 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (923TE) 19. 07:30 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Gary Vogt) 20. 07:32 PM - Re: Straight Bore Cylinders (Gary Vogt) 21. 07:38 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt) 22. 07:39 PM - Re: Oil Consumption (Gary Vogt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:18 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have a very strong argument in the following articles: http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html Especially this article: http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems. I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool them. I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn't it? Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Vogt To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: 923TE <923te@att.net> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it. Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals Check it out here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight= Gapless+rings+seals&page=2 http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight= Gapless+rings+seals See the red seal? Ned <>< On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b wrote: > > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to >> be run with a minimum clearance. > > Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work. > > > >
 http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matroni
cs.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
> 
> Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certif
ied Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed bo
th. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
> 
> Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started usi
ng the seals
> Check it out here:
> 
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
> 
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
> 
> See the red seal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ned
> 
> <><
> 
> On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b  wrote:
> 

> > 
> > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> >> be run with a minimum clearance.
> > 
> > Of course.  I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>  http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matron
ics.com/contribution">

________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________


Time: 09:59:45 AM PST US
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Carl and Harriett
From: 923te <923te@att.net>


________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________


Time: 10:12:13 AM PST US
From: flyv35b 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption


On 2/22/2012 9:56 AM, 923te wrote:
> I think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create
> so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum
> probably translates to more HP wouldn't you think?
>
> On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt  > wrote:
>
>> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly
>> now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>>

Yeah, the more vacuum the more intake charge you can pull into the 
cylinder and therefore more power.  This would likely tend to pull more 
oil past the intake valve stem if the guides don't fit pretty tight 
(which they don't compared to watercooled engine).  I wonder how much 
more vacuum they actually pull - 1" hg. 2" hg?

Cliff


________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________


Time: 10:36:02 AM PST US
From: Gary Vogt 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption

I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valves
, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say. -=0A=0ATh
ey are wrong. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the 
valves. -Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is 
intentionally limited.=0A=0AThe reality is, sodium filled valves do their w
ork by direct metal to metal contact. -Or as close to that as possible. 
-=0A=0AThe intakes could have seals. -The intake (originally) used a dr
ibble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the ste
m, very little was sucked in. -=0A=0AThe exhaust doesn't need them becaus
e the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem. -What little oil is squi
rted by the rocker is just enough to keep the stem lubricated. -=0A=0ALyc
oming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. -It doesn't hel
p. -Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. -Had that corporat
e decision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines w
ould have the retro fit.=0A=0A30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to t
alk to one of the engineers. -I wanted to know which rocker went on which
 valve. -You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the
 other way on the other side. -Both local AP/IAs didn't know. -I eventu
ally talked to 6 engineers. -The last one gave me a phone number for a gu
y who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' -His name was Wayne. -Nice
 guy. -He told me about the work done on the engines-'in the old days'
-and told me the correct order for the rockers. -My engine had been ass
embled wrong at the factory.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A Fr
om: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wed
nesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Cons
umption=0A =0A=0A =0ABill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interest
ing reading and have =0Aa very strong argument in the following articles:
=0Ahttp://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html=0A-=0AEspecially this arti
cle:=0Ahttp://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm=0Aabout the Lycoming-T
IO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide =0AKit=0A-=0ATheir arguments s
eem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the =0Aexhaust valves with 
more oil flow onto the stems.=0A-=0AI agree that the valve stem seals cer
tainly go =0Acounter to trying to cool them. =0AI guess it just depends on 
what you are trying =0Ato do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?=0A-=0ASure would 
be great to see some R&D by =0ALycolming on these issues. =0A----- Original
 Message ----- =0A>From: Gary  Vogt =0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com 
=0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37  PM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-
List: Oil  Consumption=0A>=0A>=0A>Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at 
the valve stem' seem silly  now. -Not enough exposed to do any extra cool
ing.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: 923TE <923te
@att.net>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"   =0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21,  2012 8:16 AM=0A>Subject: Re:  Tea
mGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>=0A>Yes I would be most =0A  interested i
n sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal =0A  both a
nd the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon =0A  
even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>=0A>Apparently with Gapless
 =0A  rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals=0A>Che
ck it out =0A  here:=0A>=0A>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthrea
d.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2=0A>=0A>http://www.
vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rin
gs+seals=0A>=0A>See =0A  the red seal?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Ned=0A>=0A><>
<=0A>=0A>On =0A  Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b 
minetfiber.com>=0A>> =0A>> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>> Sea
ls won't work =0A  on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to=0A
>>> be run with =0A  a minimum clearance.=0A>> =0A>> Of course.- I think 
he meant the =0A  intake valves, where they would work.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> 
=0A>> =0A>=0A> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://for
ums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> =0ASent: Wednesday, Februar
y 22, 2012 9:56 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A =0A
=0AI think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create 
so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum proba
bly translates to more HP wouldn't you think?=0A=0AOn Feb 21, 2012, at 12:3
7 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:=0A=0A=0AKinda makes that who
le 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. -Not enough exposed 
to do any extra cooling.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A
> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"  =0A>Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM=0A
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A> =0A>Yes I would be most
 interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals sea
l both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lyc
on even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>=0A>Apparently with Gapl
ess rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals=0A>Check
 it out here:=0A>=0A>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t
=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2=0A>=0A>http://www.vansair
force.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seal
s=0A>=0A>See the red seal?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Ned=0A>=0A><><=0A>=0A>On 
Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b  wrote:=0A>=0A>> 
>> =0A>> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>> Seals won't work on s
odium filled valves. These guides are designed to=0A>>> be run with a minim
um clearance.=0A>> =0A>> Of course.- I think he meant the intake valves, 
where they would work.=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>=0A> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.
=========================0A
======================== 

________________________________  Message 7  _____________________________________


Time: 10:46:50 AM PST US
From: 923te <923te@att.net>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption

Gary,
Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone


On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:

> I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valve
s, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.  
> 
> They are wrong.  Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the
 valves.  Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is in
tentionally limited.
> 
> The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to meta
l contact.  Or as close to that as possible.  
> 
> The intakes could have seals.  The intake (originally) used a dribble meth
od to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very lit
tle was sucked in.  
> 
> The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up
 the stem.  What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep
 the stem lubricated.  
> 
> Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney.  It doesn't h
elp.  Their research consisted of a corporate meeting.  Had that corporate d
ecision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would
 have the retro fit.
> 
> 30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. 
 I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve.  You see, my <700 hr Che
etah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side.  Both
 local AP/IAs didn't know.  I eventually talked to 6 engineers.  The last on
e gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.
'  His name was Wayne.  Nice guy.  He told me about the work done on the eng
ines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers.  My en
gine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
> 
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
> 
> Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have
 a very strong argument in the following articles:
> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
>  
> Especially this article:
> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
> about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
>  
> Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhau
st valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
>  
> I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool t
hem.
> I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn'
t it?
>  
> Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary Vogt
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
> 
> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now.  N
ot enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
> 
> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"  
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
> 
> Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certif
ied Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed bo
th. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
> 
> Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started usi
ng the seals
> Check it out here:
> 
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
> 
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
> 
> See the red seal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ned
> 
> <><
> 
> On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b  wrote:
> 

> > 
> > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> >> be run with a minimum clearance.
> > 
> > Of course.  I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>  http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matron
ics.com/contribution">http://forums.matron--> 
> 
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
> 

________________________________  Message 8  _____________________________________


Time: 01:16:23 PM PST US
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
From: 923te <923te@att.net>


Any consensus here on straight bore cylinders?
http://www.chuckneyent.com/cylinderoverhaul.asp


________________________________  Message 9  _____________________________________


Time: 03:12:09 PM PST US
From: flyv35b 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders


On 2/22/2012 1:15 PM, 923te wrote:
> -->  TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te<923te@att.net>
>
> Any consensus here on straight bore cylinders?
> http://www.chuckneyent.com/cylinderoverhaul.asp
>

You tryng to reduce the friction and increase HP, Ned? 

Chunk told me several years ago that he has run the big bore Continental 
cylinders with and without choke on a dyno and as I recall the straight 
bore produced a little mre HP.  He didn't think the choke is needed if 
the cylinder runs cool as it therefore doesn't expand as much at the top 
and remains pretty straight.

Another question for Ken at Lycon.

If you are talking about stock Lycoming cylinders all the nitrided 
cylinders have choke whereas the old 150 hp plain steel cylinders did not.

Cliff


________________________________  Message 10  ____________________________________


Time: 03:58:14 PM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
From: FLYaDIVE 

>
> Any consensus here on straight bore cylinders?
>> http://www.chuckneyent.com/**cylinderoverhaul.asp
>>
>>   Ned:


The requirement to Choke or not to choke is up to the cylinder manufacture
and the STC.  Years back when I upgraded my O-320 there were two STC out
there.  Bill Scott's STC is a choked cylinder. The other fellow was not.
The reason for choking is to keep the compression high as the cylinders
heat up.
All cylinders expand as they heat up.  The most heat is in the area of the
piston stroke.  SO... If you start with a Stright cylinder and say a
compression ration of 8.5:1; when the cylinder heats up the cylinder/barrel
will expand.  BEYOND stright.  So the compression ration will drop 8.45:1
who knows!!!  But it will and there will be room for the rings (top ring)
to loosen up at the split.  Lower compression equals lower HP.
So, if you know there is going to be an expansion why not compensate for it
with a little choke.  REMEMBER the choke is there for a very short time.
 Once the cylinder/barrel is hot it expands to stright.

Now...  What about the NAY NOZZLE?  I have them, anyone else?

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"

________________________________  Message 11  ____________________________________


Time: 04:15:46 PM PST US
From: Linn Walters 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders


On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> Now...  What about the NAY NOZZLE?  I have them, anyone else?
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
OK, I'll bite.  What's a NAY NOZZLE???
Linn


________________________________  Message 12  ____________________________________


Time: 04:50:26 PM PST US
From: "923te" <923te@att.net>
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders

Sprays oil on the cam
http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Linn Walters 
  To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:15 PM
  Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders




  On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
  >
  > Now...  What about the NAY NOZZLE?  I have them, anyone else?
  >
  > Barry
  > "Chop'd Liver"
  OK, I'll bite.  What's a NAY NOZZLE???
  Linn


________________________________  Message 13  ____________________________________


Time: 05:00:07 PM PST US
From: Linn Walters 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders

Ah yes.  Well, I have them in my Pitts engine (O-360-A4A).  When I had 
the departing prop problem and rebuilt the engine I had the case 
overhauled and they had to mod the case for them.  Mine are aimed at the 
pistons for cooling though.  I suppose some oil is sprayed on the cam.
Linn


On 2/22/2012 7:53 PM, 923te wrote:
> Sprays oil on the cam
> http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Linn Walters 
>     *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>     
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:15 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
>
>     >
>
>     On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>     >
>     > Now...  What about the NAY NOZZLE?  I have them, anyone else?
>     >
>     > Barry
>     > "Chop'd Liver"
>     OK, I'll bite.  What's a NAY nbsp;         Features Chat,
>     http://www.mnbsp;      via the Web
>     href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>     
>     _p;         generous bsp;                   
>     href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================
>
>
> *
>
>
> *


________________________________  Message 14  ____________________________________


Time: 05:03:20 PM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
From: FLYaDIVE 

Hi Linn:

I mentioned the NAY NOZZLE only because the link that Ned posted was to
Chuck Nay.  It is a great idea.  Inside the engine case there are oil
galleys.  When the engine is opened for OH you drill and tap into four of
these galleys, two on each side of the engine.  Into these you thread a
SPRAY NOZZLE (Nay Nozzle).
The purpose is to SPRAY oil onto the Crank Shaft and the Cam Shaft.  This
is because the engine is not what is called a Wet Crank... ONLY oil that is
splashed around gets on the Crank and Cam Shafts.  The Nay Nozzle improves
this oil spray tremendously.  The WORSE part of our engines next to the
poor oil flow is the lack of oil flow to the cam.  The cam is a VERY high
ware area of our engines.  I hope the Nay Nozzle solves some of this
problem.

Thanks for asking Linn,

Barry
"Chop'd Liver"


On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Linn Walters wrote:

> pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>>
>> Now...  What about the NAY NOZZLE?  I have them, anyone else?
>>
>> Barry
>> "Chop'd Liver"
>>
> OK, I'll bite.  What's a NAY NOZZLE???
> Linn
>
>

________________________________  Message 15  ____________________________________


Time: 06:06:18 PM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
From: Bob Steward 


Chuck Ney has an STC to add oil squirting nozzles in the case to flood the cam
with oil.
--Bob Steward

Sent from Samsung mobile


________________________________  Message 16  ____________________________________


Time: 06:32:15 PM PST US
From: Gary Vogt 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption

he was old 28 years ago. -not sure if I have the ability to contact him a
t this point.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: 923te <923t
e@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"  =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamG
rumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A =0A=0AGary,=0AAny way to get Wayne here on 
the list?=0AIt'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)=0AWe need to
 get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone=0A=0AOn 
Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:=0A=0A
=0AI could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled val
ves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say. -=0A>
=0A>=0A>They are wrong. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coki
ng on the valves. -Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium 
valves is intentionally limited.=0A>=0A>=0A>The reality is, sodium filled v
alves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. -Or as close to tha
t as possible. -=0A>=0A>=0A>The intakes could have seals. -The intake (
originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very 
little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in. -=0A>=0A>=0A>The exhau
st doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem.
 -What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep the st
em lubricated. -=0A>=0A>=0A>Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valv
es in a Mooney. -It doesn't help. -Their research consisted of a corpor
ate meeting. -Had that corporate decision not been a waste of manpower, t
ime, and money, all new engines would have the retro fit.=0A>=0A>=0A>30 yea
rs ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. -I wa
nted to know which rocker went on which valve. -You see, my <700 hr Cheet
ah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. -Bot
h local AP/IAs didn't know. -I eventually talked to 6 engineers. -The l
ast one gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the ol
d days.' -His name was Wayne. -Nice guy. -He told me about the work d
one on the engines-'in the old days'-and told me the correct order for 
the rockers. -My engine had been assembled wrong at the factory.=0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 
9:24 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have 
=0Aa very strong argument in the following articles:=0A>http://egaa.home.mi
ndspring.com/valves.html=0A>-=0A>Especially this article:=0A>http://egaa.
home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm=0A>about the Lycoming-TIO-540-AF1A Oil Co
oled Exhaust Valve Guide =0AKit=0A>-=0A>Their arguments seem to be verifi
ed by what Lycoming did to cool the =0Aexhaust valves with more oil flow on
to the stems.=0A>-=0A>I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go =0Ac
ounter to trying to cool them. =0A>I guess it just depends on what you are 
trying =0Ato do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?=0A>-=0A>Sure would be great to
 see some R&D by =0ALycolming on these issues. =0A>----- Original Message -
---- =0A>>From: Gary  Vogt =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>>Sen
t: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37  PM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: 
Oil  Consumption=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the
 valve stem' seem silly  now. -Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling
.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>> From: 923TE <923
te@att.net>=0A>>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"   =0A>>Sent: Tuesday, February 21,  2012 8:16 AM=0A>>Subject: Re:
  TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>>=0A>>Yes I would be most =0A  inter
ested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal =0A 
 both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lyco
n =0A  even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>>=0A>>Apparently wit
h Gapless =0A  rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the sea
ls=0A>>Check it out =0A  here:=0A>>=0A>>http://www.vansairforce.com/communi
ty/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2=0A>>
=0A>>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlig
ht=Gapless+rings+seals=0A>>=0A>>See =0A  the red seal?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>
>=0A>>=0A>>Ned=0A>>=0A>><><=0A>>=0A>>On =0A  Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv
35b   wrote:=0A>>=0A>>> --> TeamGrumman-List messag
e posted by: flyv35b =0A>>> =0A>>> On 2/20/2012 6:4
7 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>>> Seals won't work =0A  on sodium filled valves
. These guides are designed to=0A>>>> be run with =0A  a minimum clearance.
=0A>>> =0A>>> Of course.- I think he meant the =0A  intake valves, where 
they would work.=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>=0A>> http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matro
nics.com/contribution">http://foru
ms.matron--> ====================
================0A-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ==============
======================0Aums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A===========
=========================0A
http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n=0A=======================
=========================0A
==== 

________________________________  Message 17  ____________________________________


Time: 07:00:55 PM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
From: FLYaDIVE 

Gary said:
They are wrong.  Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the
valves.  Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is
intentionally limited.

The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal
contact.  Or as close to that as possible.


Gary:

Now that does not make sense.  I don't think anyone is around that was
involved in the original design of the Lycoming engine.  The idea of a
sodium filled valve and the extra transfer of heat because of the sodium is
feasible but has proven short of goal.  Our problem has always been over
heating of the exhaust valve and coking on the stem of that valve.
Continental uses solid stem valves and their failure mode is the same as
Lycoming.   There is no way of collecting data as to how many Lycoming and
Continental valve failures there are.
BUT!  Isn't it COKING on the valve that causes the problem?  AND... What is
COKING?  Coking is the BURNING of OIL with the subsequent build up that
causes the valve to stick.  When they stick in the DOWN position the piston
comes up to smash the valve head and bend the valve shank.
SO!  HOW WOULD ONE PREVENT THE COKING?
BY LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE THAT CAUSES THE COKING.
AND HOW WOULD ONE DO THAT?
BY INCREASING THE COOLING BY INCREASING THE OIL FLOW OVER THE VALVE STEM.
 No, I'm not yelling, just emphasing the point.

Now, if this does not make sense, please explain why.  I cannot accept the
idea that minimal oil for heat transfer is the way to go or the intent.

Barry

Here are my thoughts:
No mater how good or bad the heat transfer is between metal to meatal
(something OIL is the medium that carries the heat away.

________________________________  Message 18  ____________________________________


Time: 07:05:37 PM PST US
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
From: 923TE <923te@att.net>

Gary,
Are you the reason Lycoming came out with just using the push rod with an oi
l gallery in it on all valves?

<><

On Feb 22, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:

> he was old 28 years ago.  not sure if I have the ability to contact him at
 this point.
> 
> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"  
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
> 
> Gary,
> Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
> It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
> We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all go
ne
> 
> On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:
> 
>> I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valv
es, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.  
>> 
>> They are wrong.  Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on th
e valves.  Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is i
ntentionally limited.
>> 
>> The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to met
al contact.  Or as close to that as possible.  
>> 
>> The intakes could have seals.  The intake (originally) used a dribble met
hod to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very li
ttle was sucked in.  
>> 
>> The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases u
p the stem.  What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to kee
p the stem lubricated.  
>> 
>> Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney.  It doesn't h
elp.  Their research consisted of a corporate meeting.  Had that corporate d
ecision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would
 have the retro fit.
>> 
>> 30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers.
  I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve.  You see, my <700 hr Ch
eetah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side.  Bot
h local AP/IAs didn't know.  I eventually talked to 6 engineers.  The last o
ne gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days
.'  His name was Wayne.  Nice guy.  He told me about the work done on the en
gines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers.  My e
ngine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
>> 
>> From: 923te <923te@att.net>
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com 
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>> 
>> Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and hav
e a very strong argument in the following articles:
>> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
>>  
>> Especially this article:
>> http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
>> about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
>>  
>> Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exha
ust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
>>  
>> I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool t
hem.
>> I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn
't it?
>>  
>> Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Gary Vogt
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>> 
>> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. 
 Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>> 
>> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"  
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
>> 
>> Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certi
fied Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed b
oth. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
>> 
>> Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started us
ing the seals
>> Check it out here:
>> 
>> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
>> 
>> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=
Gapless+rings+seals
>> 
>> See the red seal?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Ned
>> 
>> <><
>> 
>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b  wrote:
>> 
>
>> > 
>> > On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>> >> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to

>> >> be run with a minimum clearance.
>> > 
>> > Of course.  I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> 
>>  http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matro
nics.com/contribution">http://forums.matron--> 
>> 
>> =========================
=========
>> -List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> =========
>> ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> =========
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>> =========================
=========
>> 
> http:/t; http://www.matronics.com/contrib===========
===
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
> 

________________________________  Message 19  ____________________________________


Time: 07:30:21 PM PST US
From: Gary Vogt 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders

Often wondered about that too. -Seems to me that with todays ability to m
achine to extreme tolerances, making a round cylinder with straight walls a
nd compatible rings only makes sense. -=0A=0A=0A_________________________
_______=0A From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0ATo: Team Grumman  =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 1:15 PM=0ASubject: Te
amGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message 
posted by: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A=0AAny consensus here on straight bore c
===============

________________________________  Message 20  ____________________________________


Time: 07:32:55 PM PST US
From: Gary Vogt 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders

I asked Ken about these several years ago. -He wasn't a believer.=0A=0A
=0A________________________________=0A From: Linn Walters =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, Februar
y 22, 2012 4:59 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Straight Bore Cylinders
=0A =0A=0AAh yes.- Well, I have them in my Pitts engine (O-360-A4A).- W
hen I had the departing prop problem and rebuilt the engine I had the case 
overhauled and they had to mod the case for them.- Mine are aimed at the 
pistons for cooling though.- I suppose some oil is sprayed on the cam.=0A
Linn=0A=0A=0AOn 2/22/2012 7:53 PM, 923te wrote: =0A =0A>Sprays oil on the c
am=0A>http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp=0A>----- Original Message --
--- =0A>>From: Linn Walters =0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>>Se
nt: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:15 PM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:
 Straight Bore Cylinders=0A>>=0A>>=0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by
: Linn Walters =0A>>=0A>>On 2/22/2012 6:57 PM, F
LYaDIVE wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>> Now...- What about the NAY NOZZLE?- I have t
hem, anyone=0A        else?=0A>>>=0A>>> Barry=0A>>> "Chop'd Liver"=0A>>OK, 
I'll bite.- What's a NAY nbsp;-------- Features Chat, htt
p://www.mnbsp;----- via the Web href="http://forums.matronics.c
om">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>>_p;-------- generous bs
p;-------------------=0Ahref="http:
//www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=====
============ 

________________________________  Message 21  ____________________________________


Time: 07:38:37 PM PST US
From: Gary Vogt 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption

Look up the original work by Sam Heron. -The oil does not do the cooling.
 -At all. -You only want a minimum of oil on the valve stems for lubric
ation. -If you're flooding the stem with oil, some will get into the guid
e and the heat will cook it. -In sodium filled valves, the cooling is don
e through the valve seat and valve guide.=0A=0ASodium filled valves are use
d in a lot of top fuel dragsters. -For a reason.=0A=0A=0A________________
________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE =0ATo: teamgrumman-l
ist@matronics.com =0ASent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:59 PM=0ASubject: 
Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A =0A=0AGary said:=0A>They are wrong
. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. -O
il flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionall
y limited.=0A>=0A>=0A>The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by
 direct metal to metal contact. -Or as close to that as possible.-=0A
=0A=0AGary:=0A=0ANow that does not make sense. -I don't think anyone is a
round that was involved in the-original-design of the Lycoming engine. 
-The idea of a sodium filled valve and the extra transfer of heat because
 of the sodium is-feasible-but has proven short of goal. -Our problem
 has always been over heating of the exhaust valve and coking on the stem o
f that valve. -Continental-uses solid stem valves and their failure mod
e is the same as Lycoming. - There is no way of collecting data as to how
 many Lycoming and Continental valve failures there are.=0ABUT! -Isn't it
 COKING on the valve that causes the problem? -AND... What is COKING? -
Coking is the BURNING of OIL with the-subsequent build up that causes the
 valve to stick. -When they stick in the DOWN position the piston comes u
p to smash the valve head and bend the valve shank.=0ASO! -HOW WOULD ONE 
PREVENT THE COKING? -=0ABY LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE THAT CAUSES THE COKIN
G.=0AAND HOW WOULD ONE DO THAT?=0ABY INCREASING THE COOLING BY INCREASING T
HE OIL FLOW OVER THE VALVE STEM. -No, I'm not yelling, just-emphasing
-the point.=0A-=0ANow, if this does not make sense, please explain why.
 -I cannot accept the idea that-minimal-oil for heat transfer is the 
way to go or the intent.=0A=0ABarry=0A=0AHere are my thoughts:=0ANo mater h
ow good or bad the heat transfer is between metal to meatal (something OIL 
========== 

________________________________  Message 22  ____________________________________


Time: 07:39:52 PM PST US
From: Gary Vogt 
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption

Not likely. -However, it wasn't long after talking to Lycoming that they 
came out with a common rocker for both intake and exhaust.=0A=0A=0A________
________________________=0A From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-
list@matronics.com"  =0ASent: Wednesday, Fe
bruary 22, 2012 7:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A
 =0A=0AGary,=0AAre you the reason Lycoming came out with just using the pus
h rod with an oil gallery in it on all valves?=0A=0A<><=0A=0AOn Feb 22, 201
2, at 8:32 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:=0A=0A=0Ahe was old 
28 years ago. -not sure if I have the ability to contact him at this poin
t.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From: 923te <923te@a
tt.net>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"  =0A>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM=0A>Subject: Re: TeamG
rumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A> =0A>=0A>Gary,=0A>Any way to get Wayne here
 on the list?=0A>It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)=0A>We n
eed to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone=0A
>=0A>On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt  wrote:
=0A>=0A>=0A>I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium f
illed valves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
 -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>They are wrong. -Spraying extra oil on the valve stem 
causes coking on the valves. -Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine w
ith sodium valves is intentionally limited.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The reality is, s
odium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. -Or a
s close to that as possible. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>The intakes could have seals
. -The intake (originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a mi
nimum. With very little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in. -=0A>
>=0A>>=0A>>The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaus
t gases up the stem. -What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just e
nough to keep the stem lubricated. -=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Lycoming had a knee je
rk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. -It doesn't help. -Their researc
h consisted of a corporate meeting. -Had that corporate decision not been
 a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would have the retro
 fit.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one
 of the engineers. -I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. 
-You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the other w
ay on the other side. -Both local AP/IAs didn't know. -I eventually tal
ked to 6 engineers. -The last one gave me a phone number for a guy who wo
rked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' -His name was Wayne. -Nice guy. 
-He told me about the work done on the engines-'in the old days'-and 
told me the correct order for the rockers. -My engine had been assembled 
wrong at the factory.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>________________________________
=0A>> From: 923te <923te@att.net>=0A>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com 
=0A>>Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumma
n-List: Oil Consumption=0A>> =0A>>=0A>> =0A>>Bill Marvel and Bill Scott mak
e for some very interesting reading and have =0Aa very strong argument in t
he following articles:=0A>>http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html=0A>>
-=0A>>Especially this article:=0A>>http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine
2.htm=0A>>about the Lycoming-TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide 
=0AKit=0A>>-=0A>>Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did
 to cool the =0Aexhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.=0A>>-
=0A>>I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go =0Acounter to trying to
 cool them. =0A>>I guess it just depends on what you are trying =0Ato do. I
t's a catch 22 isn't it?=0A>>-=0A>>Sure would be great to see some R&D by
 =0ALycolming on these issues. =0A>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>From
: Gary  Vogt =0A>>>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, 
February 21, 2012 12:37  PM=0A>>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil  Consum
ption=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve s
tem' seem silly  now. -Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>________________________________=0A>>> From: 923TE <923te
@att.net>=0A>>>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"   =0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 21,  2012 8:16 AM=0A>>>Subject: Re
:  TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption=0A>>>=0A>>>Yes I would be most =0A  in
terested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal 
=0A  both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that 
Lycon =0A  even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.=0A>>>=0A>>>Apparent
ly with Gapless =0A  rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using t
he seals=0A>>>Check it out =0A  here:=0A>>>=0A>>>http://www.vansairforce.co
m/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page
=2=0A>>>=0A>>>http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56
297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals=0A>>>=0A>>>See =0A  the red seal?=0A>>>
=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>Ned=0A>>>=0A>>><><=0A>>>=0A>>>On =0A  Feb 21,
 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b   wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>> --
>> =0A>>>> On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:=0A>>>>> Seals won't work 
=0A  on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to=0A>>>>> be run w
ith =0A  a minimum clearance.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> Of course.- I think he meant
 the =0A  intake valves, where they would work.=0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>>>> =0A>
>>> =0A>>>=0A>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://f
orums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://forums.matron--> ======
=====0A-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List 
========== ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.c
om ========== http://www.matronics.com/contribution">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution =============
====================== =0A>http
:/t; http://www.matronics.com/contrib============
=== =0A>=0A>=0A>=================
===================0Acourier new,courie
r">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ======
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ribution=0A=====================
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