Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:22 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Hosler, John)
2. 07:07 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (flyv35b)
3. 07:30 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Hosler, John)
4. 07:44 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (flyv35b)
5. 10:45 AM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (Gary Vogt)
6. 12:35 PM - Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes (flyv35b)
7. 12:38 PM - Ventral fin (Matthew Crisp)
8. 12:50 PM - Re: Ventral fin (flyv35b)
9. 02:16 PM - Re: Ventral fin (Bob Steward)
Message 1
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| Subject: | My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
What about those holes in the pie pan guys?
Once my mechanic installed the filter backwards. Only airflow was thru
the small center hole. Engine would run but died above 1500 rpm. Hope
these holes are not meant to solve that problem.
John
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BILL9725@AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
Hi Gary
I do have a JIP 4 cylinder and did run some tests on it when we put the
new engine in, but don`t have the data anymore, best I could remember
was the CHT went up on all cylinders, but EGT went down, I assumed due
to different flow patterns. But a note here also installed a fine
mixture adjustment then and that may have contributed to the different
patterns also. You have a good idea and I will see if I still have the
original filter in Hanger and if so will do some tests. Best I could
saw was with original motor, 2200 hrs, it ran a lot stronger with the
Bracket, but no JIP then so hard to say.
Will have to do some new tests just for fun though, do you have a stock
filter lying around in case I discarded my old one. Great reason for
visiting Auburn again.
Thanks
Bill
In a message dated 7/4/2011 11:44:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes:
Bill,
If you have a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT, particularly a fast responding
JPI, if you could, get a stock air filter and do some independent
testing on the filters.
Gary
________________________________
From: "BILL9725@AOL.COM" <BILL9725@AOL.COM>
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 11:06:24 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has
holes
Hi
I have been using a Challenger filter on my Tiger (75), for last
4 years and it does make a difference, as Gary says, mileage does vary,
but on a run-out 0 360 it raised the full throttle ceiling from 8000 per
the manual to closer to 9000 ft on the same day so it does breath
better. As a long time user of the same filters in my car, Flow master,
they do actually give more air volume, and also as Gary says probably
make the unbalance of our intake even worse! On a new 0 360 I can say
that the Challenger may even help more, even at 14,000 it still has
throttle left. Of course when I can afford Gary`s wonder I will be in
heaven!
Bill
In a message dated 7/3/2011 10:34:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bvnj@yahoo.com writes:
Guys,
My Brakett air filter bottom pie pan has several holes
in it. Please see the picture. They don't make sense to me because I
think that they let unfiltered air into the carb. Are those holes
supposed to be there? Why?
A related subject. Is challenger filter installed with
pie pans? Does it come with it's own pans or is one supposed to reuse
the original ones? Does anybody have experience with challenger on 78
tiger? It looks like it may not be a good fit:
http://m831.photobucket.com/image/improper%20filter%20tiger/airmaster1/C
hallenger%20VS%20Brackett%20air%20filter/IMG_3783-1.jpg.html?o=0
Thank you,
Boris.
On Jul 2, 2011, at 2:22 PM, bvnj@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi Gary,
>
> My cabin heat scat tube has a splitter. 3 inch line
goes to exhaust pipe shroud and a 1inch line used to go to nose bowl
diaphragm to supply fresh air. Do you know what it is for? My guess is
that without it the hot air is too hot and it could damage the plastic
defroster vents and maybe even windshield.
> I don't see where does this 1 inch line connects to
now. Where have you been connecting it to?
>
> Thank you,
> -Boris
http://www.matronics.com/contribution============
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
On 4/5/2012 6:21 AM, Hosler, John wrote:
> What about those holes in the pie pan guys?
>
> Once my mechanic installed the filter backwards. Only airflow was thru
> the small center hole. Engine would run but died above 1500 rpm. Hope
> these holes are not meant to solve that problem.
>
> John
There should be no holes in the end plate. Even so, the holes were
probably added for some other unknown reason and they will only bypass a
very small percentage of unfiltered air. New end plates are available,
but the holes could be covered temporarily with aluminum tape. It also
looks like you end plate has worn significantly at the outer edge from
rubbing against the block on the cover door. It may fit to loose in the
filter housing due to missing foam seals, which should be replaced if
need be.
Cliff
Message 3
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| Subject: | My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
Cliff:
Thanks!
The design of the air filter holder and the means for containing it
within the air box is perhaps the worst design issue with the Grummans.
A redesign that would hold the filter reliably in the correct (centered
position in the air box) would be very helpful.
Now they just fall to the bottom and fret away.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
flyv35b
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
On 4/5/2012 6:21 AM, Hosler, John wrote:
> What about those holes in the pie pan guys?
>
> Once my mechanic installed the filter backwards. Only airflow was thru
> the small center hole. Engine would run but died above 1500 rpm. Hope
> these holes are not meant to solve that problem.
>
> John
There should be no holes in the end plate. Even so, the holes were
probably added for some other unknown reason and they will only bypass a
very small percentage of unfiltered air. New end plates are available,
but the holes could be covered temporarily with aluminum tape. It also
looks like you end plate has worn significantly at the outer edge from
rubbing against the block on the cover door. It may fit to loose in the
filter housing due to missing foam seals, which should be replaced if
need be.
Cliff
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
On 4/5/2012 7:29 AM, Hosler, John wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Hosler, John"<JHOSLER@epri.com>
>
> Cliff:
>
> Thanks!
>
> The design of the air filter holder and the means for containing it
> within the air box is perhaps the worst design issue with the Grummans.
>
>
> A redesign that would hold the filter reliably in the correct (centered
> position in the air box) would be very helpful.
>
> Now they just fall to the bottom and fret away.
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> flyv35b
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:07 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
>
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b<flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
>
> On 4/5/2012 6:21 AM, Hosler, John wrote:
>> What about those holes in the pie pan guys?
>>
>> Once my mechanic installed the filter backwards. Only airflow was thru
>> the small center hole. Engine would run but died above 1500 rpm. Hope
>> these holes are not meant to solve that problem.
>>
>> John
>
> There should be no holes in the end plate. Even so, the holes were
> probably added for some other unknown reason and they will only bypass a
>
> very small percentage of unfiltered air. New end plates are available,
> but the holes could be covered temporarily with aluminum tape. It also
> looks like you end plate has worn significantly at the outer edge from
> rubbing against the block on the cover door. It may fit to loose in the
>
> filter housing due to missing foam seals, which should be replaced if
> need be.
>
> Cliff
>
>
The fillter needs to fit snugly and have to be pushed in to place. It
will do this if the seals are the right thickness and how tight the
screws are adjusted.
Cliff
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
John,=0A=0AThe holes and that end plate are from an early airbox. -There
used to be a (spring type strap) piece on the back that would center on the
original airbox. -It's really a stupid idea. -It would never work. -
I'm sure the same lead engineer that approved that design also approved man
y of the other designs I have listed in my "Dumb Design Decisions" on my we
b site. -=0A=0ALater airboxes have a more rigid back plate. -They are d
esigned a little better. -Don't worry about unfiltered air. -Carb heat
supplies far more unfiltered air than those holes ever will. -=0A=0AThere
is no way to keep the filter from falling down and fretting on the stop on
the airbox door. -Gravity and vibration make sure of that. -I have glu
ed onto the rear plate on my air filter 2 strips of the double beaded winds
hield seal. -Cut the beads open so they fold over. -Fill them full of g
rease or you'll never get the air filter back out. -It fits so snug that
you can't believe it. -Even with that, the air filter will move down onto
the bottom block; probably within the first few hours of operation (my gue
ss).=0A=0AThere is supposed to be a phoney little tab in the corner on the
near side. -I replaced mine with a stanless steel tube that fits from fro
nt-to-back. -At least there is more surface area to hold the filter in pl
ace. -=0A=0ASpeaking of, on my first Cheetah, I returned unused heated to
the inlet side of the airbox and blocked off hole on the bottom. -I chan
ged it back before I sold the plane. -I also installed a PCV valve to see
if I could stop oil blowing out the breather. -I tried the setup from a
455 Olds since that's what I had. -The blow-by was too much for it. -
=0A=0AI asked on this venue at some time in the past if anyone had ever tri
ed to install the airbox on a Tiger 180 degrees out just to see if it would
fit. -I may still do that. -That would put the filter door on the top
and the excess air being accelerated down the front of the cowling could be
used as an inlet. -All it takes is time and money.=0A=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A
________________________________=0A From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 7:44
AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has hole
.com>=0A=0AOn 4/5/2012 7:29 AM, Hosler, John wrote:=0A> -->- TeamGrumman-
List message posted by: "Hosler, John"<JHOSLER@epri.com>=0A>=0A> Cliff:=0A>
=0A> Thanks!=0A>=0A> The design of the air filter holder and the means for
containing it=0A> within the air box is perhaps the worst design issue with
the Grummans.=0A>=0A>=0A> A redesign that would hold the filter reliably i
n the correct (centered=0A> position in the air box) would be very helpful.
=0A>=0A> Now they just fall to the bottom and fret away.=0A>=0A> John=0A>
=0A> -----Original Message-----=0A> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@mat
ronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha
lf Of=0A> flyv35b=0A> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:07 AM=0A> To: teamg
rumman-list@matronics.com=0A> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air
filter pie pan has holes=0A>=0A> -->- TeamGrumman-List message posted by
: flyv35b<flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=0A>=0A> On 4/5/2012 6:21 AM, Hosler, John
wrote:=0A>> What about those holes in the pie pan guys?=0A>>=0A>> Once my
mechanic installed the filter backwards. Only airflow was thru=0A>> the sma
ll center hole. Engine would run but died above 1500 rpm. Hope=0A>> these h
oles are not meant to solve that problem.=0A>>=0A>> John=0A>=0A> There shou
ld be no holes in the end plate.- Even so, the holes were=0A> probably ad
ded for some other unknown reason and they will only bypass a=0A>=0A> very
small percentage of unfiltered air.- New end plates are available,=0A> bu
t the holes could be covered temporarily with aluminum tape.- It also=0A>
looks like you end plate has worn significantly at the outer edge from=0A>
rubbing against the block on the cover door.- It may fit to loose in the
=0A>=0A> filter housing due to missing foam seals, which should be replaced
if=0A> need be.=0A>=0A> Cliff=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0ATh
e fillter needs to fit snugly and have to be pushed in to place.- It =0Aw
ill do this if the seals are the right thickness and how tight the =0Ascrew
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes |
On 4/5/2012 10:44 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> I asked on this venue at some time in the past if anyone had ever tried
> to install the airbox on a Tiger 180 degrees out just to see if it would
> fit. I may still do that. That would put the filter door on the top and
> the excess air being accelerated down the front of the cowling could be
> used as an inlet. All it takes is time and money.
>
>
> Gary
>
Maybe you could use your snorkel that you have for the redesigned AG5B
induction system.
BTW, why don't you make a snorkel for the O-320 engine 2 place with the
filter up at the top so the nose bowl inlet could be closed up. Smaller
round air inlets (new nose bowl). I know, just time and money!
Cliff
Message 7
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I have a '74 traveler and would like to remove the ventral fin that runs alo
ng the belly of the tail. I know they got rid of this with the cheetah and t
iger and possibly even the '75 traveler. I have never "needed" the fin there
and it affects the overall appearance and adds weight and drag. Does anyone
have experience removing this or know if there are any issues involved? The
rivets can just be drilled out and I could simply put rivets back just to p
lug the holes. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Matt
On Apr 5, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> The holes and that end plate are from an early airbox. There used to be a
(spring type strap) piece on the back that would center on the original air
box. It's really a stupid idea. It would never work. I'm sure the same le
ad engineer that approved that design also approved many of the other design
s I have listed in my "Dumb Design Decisions" on my web site.
>
> Later airboxes have a more rigid back plate. They are designed a little b
etter. Don't worry about unfiltered air. Carb heat supplies far more unfil
tered air than those holes ever will.
>
> There is no way to keep the filter from falling down and fretting on the s
top on the airbox door. Gravity and vibration make sure of that. I have gl
ued onto the rear plate on my air filter 2 strips of the double beaded winds
hield seal. Cut the beads open so they fold over. Fill them full of grease
or you'll never get the air filter back out. It fits so snug that you can'
t believe it. Even with that, the air filter will move down onto the bottom
block; probably within the first few hours of operation (my guess).
>
> There is supposed to be a phoney little tab in the corner on the near side
. I replaced mine with a stanless steel tube that fits from front-to-back.
At least there is more surface area to hold the filter in place.
>
> Speaking of, on my first Cheetah, I returned unused heated to the inlet si
de of the airbox and blocked off hole on the bottom. I changed it back befo
re I sold the plane. I also installed a PCV valve to see if I could stop oi
l blowing out the breather. I tried the setup from a 455 Olds since that's w
hat I had. The blow-by was too much for it.
>
> I asked on this venue at some time in the past if anyone had ever tried to
install the airbox on a Tiger 180 degrees out just to see if it would fit.
I may still do that. That would put the filter door on the top and the exc
ess air being accelerated down the front of the cowling could be used as an i
nlet. All it takes is time and money.
>
>
> Gary
>
> From: flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 7:44 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
>
>
> On 4/5/2012 7:29 AM, Hosler, John wrote:
> > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "Hosler, John"<JHOSLER@epri.com
>
> >
> > Cliff:
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > The design of the air filter holder and the means for containing it
> > within the air box is perhaps the worst design issue with the Grummans.
> >
> >
> > A redesign that would hold the filter reliably in the correct (centered
> > position in the air box) would be very helpful.
> >
> > Now they just fall to the bottom and fret away.
> >
> > John
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > flyv35b
> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 10:07 AM
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: My Brakett air filter pie pan has holes
> >
> > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b<flyv35b@minetfiber.com>
> >
> > On 4/5/2012 6:21 AM, Hosler, John wrote:
> >> What about those holes in the pie pan guys?
> >>
> >> Once my mechanic installed the filter backwards. Only airflow was thru
> >> the small center hole. Engine would run but died above 1500 rpm. Hope
> >> these holes are not meant to solve that problem.
> >>
> >> John
> >
> > There should be no holes in the end plate. Even so, the holes were
> > probably added for some other unknown reason and they will only bypass a
> >
> > very small percentage of unfiltered air. New end plates are available,
> > but the holes could be covered temporarily with aluminum tape. It also
> > looks like you end plate has worn significantly at the outer edge from
> > rubbing against the block on the cover door. It may fit to loose in the
> >
> > filter housing due to missing foam seals, which should be replaced if
> > need be.
> >
> > Cliff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> The fillter needs to fit snugly and have to be pushed in to place. It
> will do this if the seals are the right t href="http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_bl =====
==================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
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=========
>
Message 8
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On 4/5/2012 12:38 PM, Matthew Crisp wrote:
> I have a '74 traveler and would like to remove the ventral fin that runs
> along the belly of the tail. I know they got rid of this with the
> cheetah and tiger and possibly even the '75 traveler. I have never
> "needed" the fin there and it affects the overall appearance and adds
> weight and drag. Does anyone have experience removing this or know if
> there are any issues involved? The rivets can just be drilled out and I
> could simply put rivets back just to plug the holes. Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
AFAIK it's never been approved and probably couldn't be because of the
different dorsal fin and horizontal tail (spin testing requirements).
I know of one plane that it was probably done illegally on.
Message 9
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It is a piece of cake to remove. However getting the FAA to APPROVE the removal
is what will be hard. It provides weathercock stability, and affects the spin
recovery and resistance. What sort of flight testing will they require? Without
the larger stabilizer of the Cheetah/Tiger, you probably can't pass the
flight tests. You think American scabbed it on for its good looks? <G>
--Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
Sent from Samsung mobile
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