Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:08 AM - Re: Cowling (Dan Schmitz)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: High CHTs Epilogue (jwellum@AOL.COM)
3. 10:21 AM - Re: Cowling (Gary Vogt)
4. 10:22 AM - Re: High CHTs Epilogue (Gary Vogt)
5. 11:04 AM - Re: Cowling (Dan Schmitz)
6. 12:03 PM - Re: Cowling (Gary)
7. 02:26 PM - Re: Cowling (FLYaDIVE)
8. 09:45 PM - Re: Cowling (923te)
9. 09:46 PM - Re: High CHTs Epilogue (923te)
10. 11:32 PM - Re: Cowling (Gary L Vogt)
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: High CHTs Epilogue |
The only time that I have seen temps over 400 degrees has been on newly
installed cylinders and I have never seen the oil temp above 195. Typically
see 375 on the hottest cylinder on a HOT day. Saturday morning was cool at
about 50 degrees. I don't think the hottest cylinder made it to 360 degrees.
That was at 2000 feet, leaned out, straight and level at 2700 rpm. Our
plane has an EI, 4 probe CHT/EGT gauge which probably reads less than a JPI.
Number 2 cylinder is always the coldest at about 320 degrees and sometimes
I think it runs too cold.
In a message dated 4/21/2012 11:53:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes:
Mark,
That's good to hear. When my plane is "dialed in" it will still run 410
straight and level at 4000 feet. Can't wait to get the IO360 on and finished.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 21, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "Mark T. Mueller"
<_mark.t.mueller@comcast.net_ (mailto:mark.t.mueller@comcast.net) > wrote:
A few weeks ago I asked for advice/comments on high CHTs after my annual
inspection. I appreciate the responses I got back, and most concentrated on
baffling and timing.
My IA swore the timing on the engine was correct, and the cabin heating
duct in front of the exit ramp would not effect cooling flow much. Spent a
day trying to troubleshoot, and he became convinced it was an instrumentation
issue. Kind of made sense, but I was skeptical. He did find one of the
CHT probes had significant tip wear (they were well over 10 years old...)
After new probe installation, the monitor indicated a 10 degree drop in
CHTs, but still running well over 430 in cruise...
Last weekend, I re-routed the heater duct away and around the exit ramps.
A pain, but just took some time and extra materials. Noticed an immediate
improvement in cooling, but CHTs were still too high for my liking.
I ordered a Mag-Rite timing tool kit from ATS. Digital protractor and
nylon cylinder probe to enable very precise location of actual TDC (as opposed
to a mark on a ring and location on case.) Can't say enough good things
about this kit (worth every penny), very easy to use, and the digital
protractor has 1/10 degree resolution. Re-timed my mags (I have a LASAR
ignition) to specs. To say the timing was 'off' is an understatement. It was
WAY
off. The smoothness of the LASAR masked the issue well, and the motor put
out good power.
Now that it is 'dialed in' to within a tenth of a degree of accuracy, the
CHTs dropped over 20F.
So, I improved cooling air flow, and fixed my timing. This is AFTER
paying an IA for a complete annual, and coming back for troubleshooting.
At the end of the day, the lesson I learned is after over 10 years of
ownership, I will know when 33R is "dialed in" or not regardless of what an IA
may believe even if he has been taking care of this aircraft for several
years...
Mark
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 3
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"So my baffles have a grate over the air intake hole."=0A=0AI actually disc
ussed that with a DER. =C2-There was a concern over impact ice blocking t
he hole. =C2-I didn't buy it but who am I to argue. =C2-Leaving it off
made it simple. =C2-How did you attach the screen? =C2-Seems simple eno
ugh.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Sch
mitz@calix.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@ma
tronics.com> =0ASent: Monday, April 23, 2012 5:05 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGru
mman-List: Cowling=0A =0A=0A =0AI believe my engine is 0.4 degrees down thr
ust.=C2- I thought that was in the target range.=C2- It matched the old
cowl quite nicely and the new cowl, where you had marked some likely lines
matched up almost perfectly.=C2- In the one picture where the engine loo
ks high, it was a very early picture.=C2- The cowl was just resting on th
e engine without any internal support at that point.=C2- I don=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2t currently have any baffle pictures.=C2- I want to replac
e the bottom #4 spark plug soon, so hopefully I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll r
emember then.=0A=C2-=0AOh, one change I insisted on: =C2-The old air in
take above the #3 cylinder used to have a grating.=C2- The new baffles si
mply had an open hole.=C2- I had visions of a bird quietly nesting back t
here and me trying to take off with a bird nest covering the air filter.=C2
- So my baffles have a grate over the air intake hole.=0A=C2-=0ADan=0A
=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-tea
mgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0ASent: Friday,
April 20, 2012 1:54 PM=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re:
TeamGrumman-List: Cowling=0A=C2-=0ADan=0A=C2-=0AThanks for posting. =C2
-=0A=C2-=0AI just finished the installation on Dean's plane. =C2-He's
is getting an additional 6 or 7 knots and a gallon an hour less.=0A=C2-
=0ACam-Locs: =C2-The hole for the receptacle should be at least 5/8 inche
s. =C2-I then use a countersink bit to flair the edge. =C2-Once the Cam
loc is unlatched, pull it so it's all the way out. =C2-Hold onto the two
end ones and pull out and open. =C2-=0A=C2-=0AIn the pic it looks like
the engine is way too far up. =C2-It needs to be about .5 to 1 degree dow
n. =C2-=0A=C2-=0AI had to make the front cylinders run hot in climb to
make them even in cruise.=0A=C2-=0AIf you have pics of the baffles, I'd r
eally like to see them. =C2-=0A=C2-=0AWhen installing Dean's cowling, I
found I needed to tweak some baffles. =C2-I have them in for revision.
=C2-Hopefully the next batch will be closer.=0A=C2-=0AGary=0A=C2-=0A
=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4
=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2
=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2
=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8
=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2
=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B
=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I
=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: High CHTs Epilogue |
Based on a year of flying with an EI mounted above my JPI, I'd have to say
that if you saw CHTs anywhere near 400 on an EI, be worried. -A JPI would
be showing over 470 at that point.=0A=0A=0A_______________________________
_=0A From: "jwellum@AOL.COM" <jwellum@AOL.COM>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matro
nics.com =0ASent: Monday, April 23, 2012 7:20 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman
-List: High CHTs Epilogue=0A =0A=0A-=0AThe only time that I have seen tem
ps over 400 degrees has been on newly =0Ainstalled cylinders and I have nev
er seen the oil temp above 195. Typically see =0A375 on the hottest cylinde
r on a HOT day. Saturday morning was cool at about 50 =0Adegrees. I don't t
hink the hottest cylinder made it to 360 degrees. That was at =0A2000 feet,
leaned out,-straight and level at 2700 rpm. Our plane =0Ahas-an EI,-
4 probe- CHT/EGT gauge which-probably reads less =0Athan a JPI. Number
2 cylinder is always the coldest at about 320 degrees and =0Asometimes I th
ink it runs too cold. =0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A-=0A
-=0AIn a message dated 4/21/2012 11:53:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, =0A
teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes:=0AMark,=0A>=0A>=0A>That's good to hear. When
my plane is "dialed in" it will still run 410 straight and level at 4000 f
eet. Can't wait to get the IO360 on and finished.-=0A>=0A>=0A>GarySent f
rom my iPad=0A>=0A>On Apr 21, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "Mark T. Mueller" <mark.t.m
ueller@comcast.net> wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A>A few weeks ago I asked for advice/c
omments on high CHTs after my annual inspection. -I appreciate the respo
nses I got back, and most concentrated on baffling and timing. =0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>My IA swore the timing on the engine was correct, and the cabin heatin
g duct in front of the exit ramp would not effect cooling flow much. -S
pent a day trying to troubleshoot, and he became convinced it was an instr
umentation issue. -Kind of made sense, but I was skeptical. -He did fi
nd one of the CHT probes had significant tip wear (they were well over 10
years old...)=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>After new probe installation, the monitor indic
ated a 10 degree drop in CHTs, but still running well over 430 in cruise..
.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Last weekend, I re-routed the heater duct away and around t
he exit ramps. -A pain, but just took some time and extra materials.
-Noticed an immediate improvement in cooling, but CHTs were still too hi
gh for my liking.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I ordered a Mag-Rite timing tool kit from A
TS. -Digital protractor and nylon cylinder probe to enable very precise
location of actual TDC (as opposed to a mark on a ring and location on cas
e.) -Can't say enough good things about this kit (worth every penny), ve
ry easy to use, and the digital protractor has 1/10 degree resolution. -
Re-timed my mags (I have a LASAR ignition) to specs. -To say the timing
was 'off' is an understatement. -It was WAY off. -The smoothness of th
e LASAR masked the issue well, and the motor put out good power.=0A>>=0A>>
=0A>>Now that it is 'dialed in' to within a tenth of a degree of accuracy,
the CHTs dropped over 20F.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>So, I improved cooling air flow,
and fixed my timing. -This is AFTER paying an IA for a complete annual,
and coming back for-troubleshooting.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>At the end of the day
, the lesson I learned is after over 10 years of ownership, I will know wh
en 33R is "dialed in" or not regardless of what an IA may believe even if
he has been taking care of this aircraft for several years...=0A>>=0A>>Mar
k=0A>>=0A>>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">htt
p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Ahref="http://forums.ma
tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com
/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A>st href="http://
www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?TeamGrumman-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=0Ap://
www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A_
-========================
================
Message 5
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Message 6
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Message 7
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Message 8
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Also, shop rags or papertowels forgotten and left behind. My friends
Commanche has a similar induction for air and we found a rag plugging it
up one day....
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling
Yea, birds can be a pain in the ass.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 23, 2012, at 11:01 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
wrote:
I employed one of those disgusting owner techniques. I told my A&P
to fix it up and went home. I know I looked over the installation
later, but don=99t recall now.
The icing thought occurred to me as well. But the old system used a
grate and there=99s the carb heat path. It=99s not going to
be worse than the original. I=99m more afraid of hidden birds.
Dan
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 1:19 PM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling
"So my baffles have a grate over the air intake hole."
I actually discussed that with a DER. There was a concern over
impact ice blocking the hole. I didn't buy it but who am I to argue.
Leaving it off made it simple. How did you attach the screen? Seems
simple enough.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"
<teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 5:05 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling
I believe my engine is 0.4 degrees down thrust. I thought that was
in the target range. It matched the old cowl quite nicely and the new
cowl, where you had marked some likely lines matched up almost
perfectly. In the one picture where the engine looks high, it was a
very early picture. The cowl was just resting on the engine without any
internal support at that point. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t
currently have any baffle pictures. I want to replace the bottom #4
spark plug soon, so hopefully I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll remember then.
Oh, one change I insisted on: The old air intake above the #3
cylinder used to have a grating. The new baffles simply had an open
hole. I had visions of a bird quietly nesting back there and me trying
to take off with a bird nest covering the air filter. So my baffles
have a grate over the air intake hole.
Dan
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=EF=BDZnW=EF=BDv+=EF=BD\t=EF=BD-$=EF=BD
=EF=BDDC=EF=BDc=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: High CHTs Epilogue |
I think you may be right about 320 being too cool. It seems my engine
performs best when CHT's are in the 370 - 385 range when set for best
power
----- Original Message -----
From: jwellum@AOL.COM
To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: High CHTs Epilogue
The only time that I have seen temps over 400 degrees has been on
newly installed cylinders and I have never seen the oil temp above 195.
Typically see 375 on the hottest cylinder on a HOT day. Saturday morning
was cool at about 50 degrees. I don't think the hottest cylinder made it
to 360 degrees. That was at 2000 feet, leaned out, straight and level at
2700 rpm. Our plane has an EI, 4 probe CHT/EGT gauge which probably
reads less than a JPI. Number 2 cylinder is always the coldest at about
320 degrees and sometimes I think it runs too cold.
In a message dated 4/21/2012 11:53:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
teamgrumman@yahoo.com writes:
Mark,
That's good to hear. When my plane is "dialed in" it will still run
410 straight and level at 4000 feet. Can't wait to get the IO360 on and
finished.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 21, 2012, at 6:30 PM, "Mark T. Mueller"
<mark.t.mueller@comcast.net> wrote:
A few weeks ago I asked for advice/comments on high CHTs after my
annual inspection. I appreciate the responses I got back, and most
concentrated on baffling and timing.
My IA swore the timing on the engine was correct, and the cabin
heating duct in front of the exit ramp would not effect cooling flow
much. Spent a day trying to troubleshoot, and he became convinced it
was an instrumentation issue. Kind of made sense, but I was skeptical.
He did find one of the CHT probes had significant tip wear (they were
well over 10 years old...)
After new probe installation, the monitor indicated a 10 degree
drop in CHTs, but still running well over 430 in cruise...
Last weekend, I re-routed the heater duct away and around the exit
ramps. A pain, but just took some time and extra materials. Noticed an
immediate improvement in cooling, but CHTs were still too high for my
liking.
I ordered a Mag-Rite timing tool kit from ATS. Digital protractor
and nylon cylinder probe to enable very precise location of actual TDC
(as opposed to a mark on a ring and location on case.) Can't say enough
good things about this kit (worth every penny), very easy to use, and
the digital protractor has 1/10 degree resolution. Re-timed my mags (I
have a LASAR ignition) to specs. To say the timing was 'off' is an
understatement. It was WAY off. The smoothness of the LASAR masked the
issue well, and the motor put out good power.
Now that it is 'dialed in' to within a tenth of a degree of
accuracy, the CHTs dropped over 20F.
So, I improved cooling air flow, and fixed my timing. This is
AFTER paying an IA for a complete annual, and coming back for
troubleshooting.
At the end of the day, the lesson I learned is after over 10 years
of ownership, I will know when 33R is "dialed in" or not regardless of
what an IA may believe even if he has been taking care of this aircraft
for several years...
Mark
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
st
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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I intentionally fill mine with rags when not in use. When it won't run, I kn
ow why.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 23, 2012, at 9:50 PM, "923te" <923te@att.net> wrote:
> Also, shop rags or papertowels forgotten and left behind. My friends Comma
nche has a similar induction for air and we found a rag plugging it up one d
ay....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gary
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 2:03 PM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling
>
> Yea, birds can be a pain in the ass.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 23, 2012, at 11:01 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
>> I employed one of those disgusting owner techniques. I told my A&P to fi
x it up and went home. I know I looked over the installation later, but don
=99t recall now.
>> The icing thought occurred to me as well. But the old system used a grat
e and there=99s the carb heat path. It=99s not going to be wors
e than the original. I=99m more afraid of hidden birds.
>> Dan
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 1:19 PM
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling
>> "So my baffles have a grate over the air intake hole."
>> I actually discussed that with a DER. There was a concern over impact ic
e blocking the hole. I didn't buy it but who am I to argue. Leaving it off
made it simple. How did you attach the screen? Seems simple enough.
>> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 5:05 AM
>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Cowling
>> I believe my engine is 0.4 degrees down thrust. I thought that was in th
e target range. It matched the old cowl quite nicely and the new cowl, wher
e you had marked some likely lines matched up almost perfectly. In the one p
icture where the engine looks high, it was a very early picture. The cowl w
as just resting on the engine without any internal support at that point. I
don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t currently have any baffle pictures. I want to
replace the bottom #4 spark plug soon, so hopefully I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2
ll remember then.
>> Oh, one change I insisted on: The old air intake above the #3 cylinder u
sed to have a grating. The new baffles simply had an open hole. I had visi
ons of a bird quietly nesting back there and me trying to take off with a bi
rd nest covering the air filter. So my baffles have a grate over the air in
take hole.
>> Dan
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>
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