---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/13/12: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (barry speronello) 2. 07:09 AM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (FLYaDIVE) 3. 07:22 AM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (Jim Fudge) 4. 09:36 AM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (Gary Vogt) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (Gary Vogt) 6. 09:58 AM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (FLYaDIVE) 7. 12:08 PM - ElectroAir (Gary Vogt) 8. 02:23 PM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (robsherwin@AOL.COM) 9. 04:00 PM - Re: Trick to opening canopy in flight? (barry speronello) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? From: barry speronello Sounds good. Just need to muscle up more and there is no unusual danger of damaging the canopy seal. Presume slower is easier than faster? Beyond comfort, my interest in this is because I've been reading up on emergency procedures; particularly ditching. The most popular local sightseeing flight is the Hudson River corridor and if the engine quits along there at <=1500ft, there is nowhere to land but the river. Having the canopy open and wedging something into the gap so it doesn't slam shut on impact seems like an important part of the process. So next time I'll go out and try it at best glide speed so I know how to do it there. Thanks, again. Barry S(2) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? From: FLYaDIVE Hello Barry :-) Well you are 100% correct.... You ARE pulling against a partial vacuum and that is why it is difficult to open. [IFR side note: If you open your Alt Air Valve you will see an INSTANT increase in altitude. That is because of the partial vacuum in the cockpit.] Keeping the canopy open is also a a bit tricky. One trick that many do/have is a 1" ID piece of PVC tubing with about 1/3 of the wall removed for the entire length, forming a 'C'... Length... The distance from the front window bow to the placard arrow that is on the inside railing. Then you slip this PVC over the rail to keep the canopy open to that dimension. You DO NOT want to go beyond that distance because the forces reverse direction. They will force the canopy all the way back. Not Good. They will rip the canopy out of your hands. The why of your sliding difficulty could be - Insufficient lubrication on the canopy rails. A simple check for both lubrication and quality of your rails is during pre-flight try to slide the canopy open from one side near the bottom rail. If it slides lubrication is good, if it twists, then rails could be misaligned or worn or both. Barry "Chop'd Liver" On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:48 PM, barry speronello wrote: > I tried for the first time today to open my Tiger's canopy in flight. IAS > about 100 kts. Pulled back on the latch, and nothing. Reached up for a > better grip and it moved some, but did not open. Tried a third time with > two hands and it felt like the front seal was stretching flightly, but it > would not separate. It was like I was trying to open it against a vacuum > and as long as no air leaked in, the canopy wouldn't slide back. > > I stopped at that point, as I was concerned that pulling harder might tear > the relatively soft seal on the front face of the canopy. > > Other information. I am sure the latch was unhooked...it holds my canopy > solidly forward and on my second and third tries the canopy moved to the > extent that the seal stretched. Movement like that does not happen with > the latch closed. > > Both air vents were full open and blowing lots of air into the cabin. Hot > air was closed. > > What am I missing? Is there a trick to getting it open in flight? During > one of my training flights in a rental Tiger the instructor opened the > canopy with little effort. That was in the autumn, though, so the vents > were probably closed. But I would have guessed that the vents would help > equalize the pressure and make opening easier. Is it that the interior was > actually pressurized relative to outside and the problem is that it can't > slide against the top of the rails? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Barry S(2) > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:58 AM PST US From: "Jim Fudge" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? NO trickjust pull hard. I have flown my Cheetah in Florida with the canopy pulled back about 6-8 inches for over 20 years. I even made some air scoops out of home shop vac attachments by adding a clip to it so that I can attach the scoop to the canopy bow. The high speed air is diverted into the cockpit and it keeps us cool. On takeoff I have the scoops already mounted and slide the canopy forward until it makes contact with the scoops. No problems. At cruise speed the airflow will pull the canopy towards the canopy bow and it takes a little extra muscle to overcome the initial force to open the canopy. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:57 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? Barry,=0A=0AIt's a common misconception that you'll be able to open the can opy and prop something in there. -Some propose making little half tubes f rom PVC and when there is an emergency, open the canopy, place the tube ove r the rail, close the canopy, and THEN when you crash, just open the canopy and get out. -=0A=0AForget all that bullshit. -Don't even carry a fire extinguisher. -If and when you have an emergency, fly the plane all the way to the crash site. Period. -You'll never have enough time to do anyth ing else. -Ask me how I know. -=0A=0AA fire extinguisher will only fill the cabin with fumes that will kill you. -Opening the canopy adds oxygen to the fire. -Get the plane on the ground as quickly as possible. -=0A =0AIf your engine quits over the Hudson, get as close to land as possible. -Odds are the plane will flip over. -Unless you pull up at the last min ute and let the plane fall out of the sky in a full stall. -Trust me, unl ess you are practicing in a simulator, the best you can do is the best you can do. -=0A=0ADo you really think you'll waste 30 seconds trying to open your canopy an NOT keep flying the plane?=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A______________ __________________=0A From: barry speronello =0ATo: team grumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:46 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight?=0A =0A=0ASounds g ood.- Just need to muscle up more and there is no unusual danger of damag ing the canopy seal.=0APresume slower is easier than faster?=0ABeyond comfo rt, my interest in this is because I've been reading up on emergency proced ures; particularly ditching.- The most popular local sightseeing flight i s the Hudson River corridor and if the engine quits along there at <=1500 ft, there is nowhere to land but the river.- Having the canopy open and w edging something into the gap so it doesn't slam shut on impact seems like an important part of the process.- So next time I'll go out and try it at best glide speed so I know how to do it there.=0AThanks, again.=0ABarry S( ==================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:21 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? Like I said. -Lots of bad advice out there. -=0A=0ADO NOT STOP FLYING T HE PLANE. -=0ADO NOT-TAKE TIME OUT OF YOUR DAY TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. - =0AFLYING YOUR PLANE NEEDS THE UTMOST ATTENTION.=0ACONCENTRATE ON FINDING A GOOD CRASH SITE.-=0AFLY THE PLANE TO THAT LOCATION.=0A=0ASome people say to carry an ax in the plane. -First of all, in a crash, you don't want a nything loose in the cabin that is heavy enough to break plexiglass. -Unl ess you fabricate a holder for your side panel next to your seat, you'll ne ver be able to get to it once it's buried under the rudder pedals.=0A=0ADO NOT STOP FLYING THE PLANE UNTIL IT'S EITHER IN THE TIE DOWN OR STOPS MOVING AFTER A CRASH.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:09 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening cano py in flight?=0A =0A=0AHello Barry :-)=0A=0AWell you are 100% correct.... Y ou ARE pulling against a-partial-vacuum-and that is why it is-diffi cult-to open. -[IFR side note: If you open your Alt Air Valve you will see an INSTANT increase in altitude. -That is-because-of the-partia l-vacuum in the cockpit.] -Keeping the canopy open is also a a bit tric ky. -One trick that many do/have is a 1" ID piece of PVC tubing with abou t 1/3 of the wall removed for the entire length, forming a 'C'... -Length ... The distance from the front window bow to the-placard-arrow that is on the inside railing. -Then you slip this PVC over the rail to keep the canopy open to that-dimension.-=0AYou DO NOT want to go beyond that di stance because the forces reverse direction. -They will force the canopy all the way back. -Not Good. -They will rip the canopy out of your hand s.=0AThe why of your sliding-difficulty-could be - Insufficient-lubri cation-on the canopy rails. -A simple check for both-lubrication-an d quality of your rails is during pre-flight try to slide the canopy open f rom one side near the bottom rail. -If it slides-lubrication-is good, if it twists, then rails could be-misaligned-or worn or both.-=0A=0A Barry=0A"Chop'd Liver"=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:48 PM, barry s peronello wrote:=0A=0AI tried for the first time today to open my Tiger's canopy in flight.- IAS about 100 kts.- Pulled back o n the latch, and nothing.- Reached up for a better grip and it moved some , but did not open.- Tried a third time with two hands and it felt like t he front seal was stretching flightly, but it would not separate.- It was like I was trying to open it against a vacuum and as long as no air leaked in, the canopy wouldn't slide back.=0A>I stopped at that point, as I was c oncerned that pulling harder might tear the relatively soft seal on the fro nt face of the canopy.=0A>Other information.- I am sure the latch was unh ooked...it holds my canopy solidly forward and on my second and third tries the canopy moved to the extent that the seal stretched.- Movement like t hat does not happen with the latch closed.=0A>Both air vents were full open and blowing lots of air into the cabin.- Hot air was closed.=0A>What am I missing?- Is there a trick to getting it open in flight?- During one of my training flights in a rental Tiger the instructor opened the canopy w ith little effort.- That was in the autumn, though, so the vents were pro bably closed.- But I would have guessed that the vents would help equaliz e the pressure and make opening easier.- Is it that the interior was actu ally pressurized relative to outside and the problem is that it can't slide against the top of the rails?=0A>Thanks in advance for your help.=0A>Barry S(2)=0A>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumm an-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/cont ======================= ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? From: FLYaDIVE You are correct Gary: Unless one practices the grab & block maneuver over and over it is not one of their quiver of arrow tricks and would never come into play as an emergency action. 30 seconds! Wow, that is slow! Barry "Chop'd Liver" Emergency procedure: Open canopy - Bend over - Kiss you sweet ass good by. OR do it right the first time. On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > Barry, > > It's a common misconception that you'll be able to open the canopy and > prop something in there. Some propose making little half tubes from PVC > and when there is an emergency, open the canopy, place the tube over the > rail, close the canopy, and THEN when you crash, just open the canopy and > get out. > > Forget all that bullshit. Don't even carry a fire extinguisher. If and > when you have an emergency, fly the plane all the way to the crash site. > Period. You'll never have enough time to do anything else. Ask me how I > know. > > A fire extinguisher will only fill the cabin with fumes that will kill > you. Opening the canopy adds oxygen to the fire. Get the plane on the > ground as quickly as possible. > > If your engine quits over the Hudson, get as close to land as possible. > Odds are the plane will flip over. Unless you pull up at the last minute > and let the plane fall out of the sky in a full stall. Trust me, unless > you are practicing in a simulator, the best you can do is the best you can > do. > > Do you really think you'll waste 30 seconds trying to open your canopy an > NOT keep flying the plane? > > Gary > > ------------------------------ > *From:* barry speronello > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:46 AM > > *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? > > Sounds good. Just need to muscle up more and there is no unusual danger > of damaging the canopy seal. > Presume slower is easier than faster? > Beyond comfort, my interest in this is because I've been reading up on > emergency procedures; particularly ditching. The most popular local > sightseeing flight is the Hudson River corridor and if the engine quits > along there at <=1500ft, there is nowhere to land but the river. Having > the canopy open and wedging something into the gap so it doesn't slam shut > on impact seems like an important part of the process. So next time I'll > go out and try it at best glide speed so I know how to do it there. > Thanks, again. > Barry S(2) > > *-================================== > * > > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:42 PM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: TeamGrumman-List: ElectroAir Barry,=0A=0AThe ElectroAir starts at 0 degrees BTDC. =C2-At 400 rpm it ad vances to 7 degrees. =C2-By 600 rpm, it's at 25 degrees BTDC. =C2-=0A =0AThe ElectroAir is NOT a CDI. =C2-It is not just an add-on to the basic magneto. =C2-It's the same system used on distributorless ignition syste ms in cars. =C2-=0A=A2 The biggest difference is the Electroair use s one common coil instead of one coil per plug.=0A=0AThe unit that replaces the mag is similar to the magnetic pickup on the cam (or crank) on cars. =C2-=0A=A2 Just like in a car, it begins it's timing sequence at 0 BTDC.=0A=A2 There is no adjustment inside any box. =C2-=0A=A2 There is nothing to rub or wear out. =C2-=0A=A2 The only moving pa rt is a 60 tooth wheel inside the unit used in place of right mag.=C2-=0A =0AThe DIS, just like in your car, requires that the engine go through one complete ignition sequence (2 revolutions) before it knows where it is.=0A =0AThe backfiring was due to this learning curve. =C2-Following the instr uctions in the install manual, there will be a toggle that turns the unit o ff and on. =C2-=0A=A2 The coil is not in that loop. =C2-The coil stays hot. =C2-Two circuit breakers. =C2-Two circuits.=0A=A2 You will not get a backfire unless you intentionally turn of both left and righ t and then turn one or the other on.=0A=0AStarting is done on both mags sin ce they are both at 0 BTDC.=0A=0AMag drop is tested by shutting off the Ele ctroair with the toggle (this tests the left mag): =C2-80 rpm drop=0A=0AE lectroair turned back on. =C2-No backfire.=0A=0ASwitch to Right Mag (this shorts the left mag and tests the Electroair): =C2-No noticeable drop in rpm.=0A=0A==============0A=0A=0AFrom: FLYaDIVE < flyadive@gmail.com>=0ATo: grumman-gang =0A Sent: Sun, May 13, 2012 8:38 am=0ASubject: Re: Electroair EIS-41000=0A=0A =0ALawrence: I do not know if there is a difference between the Experimenta l version and=0Athe STC version but with the Experimental, STARTING is only done on the=0AMag, the Impulse Mag and then you switch on the CDI. There is a 6=0ADeg diffidence in timing with the CDI and that is adjustable - Whi ch may be=0Aout of timing on your engine. I mention this because I just ca me across a=0Aproblem where the adjustment which is inside the the CDI alum inum box was=0Aout of timing. The electronic adjustment is held in positio n by friction=0Aof a rubber pad. Over time and temperature and swapping en gines the=0Aadjustment was out. We did not get backfiring but we did see a drop in MP=0Aat altitude of 8000' and above, more so than before, ask E.A. about this. Barry=0A"Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? From: robsherwin@AOL.COM You are right Gary, as pilot, fly the plane. Of course, if you have a pass enger, it gives them something to do. It's part of my pre-flight briefing (in case of an off-airport "landing" you have just one job to do). Then I don't have to worry about it. Rob Sherwin -----Original Message----- From: Gary Vogt Sent: Sun, May 13, 2012 9:43 am Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? Like I said. Lots of bad advice out there. DO NOT STOP FLYING THE PLANE. DO NOT TAKE TIME OUT OF YOUR DAY TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. FLYING YOUR PLANE NEEDS THE UTMOST ATTENTION. CONCENTRATE ON FINDING A GOOD CRASH SITE. FLY THE PLANE TO THAT LOCATION. Some people say to carry an ax in the plane. First of all, in a crash, you don't want anything loose in the cabin that is heavy enough to break plexi glass. Unless you fabricate a holder for your side panel next to your seat , you'll never be able to get to it once it's buried under the rudder pedal s. DO NOT STOP FLYING THE PLANE UNTIL IT'S EITHER IN THE TIE DOWN OR STOPS MOV ING AFTER A CRASH. From: FLYaDIVE Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:09 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? Hello Barry :-) Well you are 100% correct.... You ARE pulling against a partial vacuum and that is why it is difficult to open. [IFR side note: If you open your Alt Air Valve you will see an INSTANT increase in altitude. That is because of the partial vacuum in the cockpit.] Keeping the canopy open is also a a b it tricky. One trick that many do/have is a 1" ID piece of PVC tubing with about 1/3 of the wall removed for the entire length, forming a 'C'... Len gth... The distance from the front window bow to the placard arrow that is on the inside railing. Then you slip this PVC over the rail to keep the ca nopy open to that dimension. You DO NOT want to go beyond that distance because the forces reverse direc tion. They will force the canopy all the way back. Not Good. They will r ip the canopy out of your hands. The why of your sliding difficulty could be - Insufficient lubrication on t he canopy rails. A simple check for both lubrication and quality of your r ails is during pre-flight try to slide the canopy open from one side near t he bottom rail. If it slides lubrication is good, if it twists, then rails could be misaligned or worn or both. Barry "Chop'd Liver" On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:48 PM, barry speronello wrot e: I tried for the first time today to open my Tiger's canopy in flight. IAS about 100 kts. Pulled back on the latch, and nothing. Reached up for a be tter grip and it moved some, but did not open. Tried a third time with two hands and it felt like the front seal was stretching flightly, but it woul d not separate. It was like I was trying to open it against a vacuum and a s long as no air leaked in, the canopy wouldn't slide back. I stopped at that point, as I was concerned that pulling harder might tear the relatively soft seal on the front face of the canopy. Other information. I am sure the latch was unhooked...it holds my canopy s olidly forward and on my second and third tries the canopy moved to the ext ent that the seal stretched. Movement like that does not happen with the l atch closed. Both air vents were full open and blowing lots of air into the cabin. Hot air was closed. What am I missing? Is there a trick to getting it open in flight? During one of my training flights in a rental Tiger the instructor opened the cano py with little effort. That was in the autumn, though, so the vents were p robably closed. But I would have guessed that the vents would help equaliz e the pressure and make opening easier. Is it that the interior was actual ly pressurized relative to outside and the problem is that it can't slide a gainst the top of the rails? Thanks in advance for your help. Barry S(2) st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List p://forums.matronics.com blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/== -= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:00:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Trick to opening canopy in flight? From: barry speronello Tried it again, and it worked fine. Pulled the power, trimmed to best glide, and pulled open the canopy. Easy at the slower speed. I get the guidance to first fly the plane, then find the best (least bad) site to put down the plane, then land it as well as possible. But I also think with the right preparation we should be able to get the canopy propped open as well. From 1500 ft we'd have about 90 seconds best case. Figure 60 seconds real life. I intend to preselect landing locations along the river ahead of time. Except for the golf course in Jersey City, I expect the only options will be in the River...but I'll know that ahead of time for every spot along the route. So I think that there should be time. I'LL make it part of my practice routine and see. Thanks for the help, Barry S(2) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.