Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:08 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz)
2. 07:01 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
3. 08:25 AM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero)
4. 10:29 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt)
5. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary Vogt)
6. 10:36 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt)
7. 12:47 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz)
8. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (flyv35b)
9. 01:14 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz)
10. 02:10 PM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero)
11. 02:19 PM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero)
12. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (flyv35b)
13. 09:26 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dean White)
14. 10:02 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
15. 10:05 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
16. 10:24 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt)
17. 10:33 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt)
18. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt)
19. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Brian Hausknecht)
20. 10:46 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary L Vogt)
21. 10:49 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary L Vogt)
22. 10:55 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary L Vogt)
23. 11:04 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt)
24. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Brian Hausknecht)
25. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Dan,
I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near sea
level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Also, i
t is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting the en
gine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a cylin
der definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has droppe
d since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says keep d
oing break in procedure for 50 hrs.
I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it b
y adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum r
pm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garmin
430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I t
ry and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am flyi
ng at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a
freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flaps h
ave to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A diffe
rence of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to get c
onsistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect your r
esults. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. If t
hey don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another day. I
t's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly;) Fo
od for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's really har
d to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record indicat
ed airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flight te
st. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I continu
e to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always gets me 2
more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher told m
e this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. Weird hu
h?
Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed as b
efore Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. That e
nergy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area worth e
xperimenting with;)
My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the cooling i
s better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical speed i
ncrease from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs back
to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see th
at 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.
BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures?
Regards,
Ned
On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci
se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No
te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply
used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu
las. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D.
>
> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-intu
itive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so far
show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density altitu
de tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean fo
r highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine m
y engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and runni
ng on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet. D
o most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to norm
al oil?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe
d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True
Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa
turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming
off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul
ts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thin
k my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I droppe
d in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adj
ustments you noted but he was off with his kids.
>
> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the
top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>
>
>
==========================
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>
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=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
Doug Doty wrote:
> ..... I have noticed that it also needs leaned aggressively on the ground to
run clean and it's best and during ground operation mag checks...
>
I am just beginning to play with leaning on the ground. I had been simply leaning
about an inch with no attention to the effect on idle speed. I now find that
if I lean to peak idle, it takes about 1.5 inches and gains about 300 rpm
over idle at full rich.
But during the ground runup mag check I go back to full rich. Is that wrong?
Should I be leaning for that as well? I ask because the left mag always runs
a little rougher than the right during the mag check. The RPM drop for the left
mag is fine (about 80-100 rpm), and equal to the drop for the right mag. But
the left mag is noticeably rougher.
If I should be leaning for the mag check, what technique should I use (eg. run
it up rich and lean until rough then enrichen slightly?)?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373771#373771
Message 4
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|
| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Well, Dan,=0A=0AOn N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling.
=C2-Right out of the hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock co
wling at altitudes between 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. =C2-It w
as also easier to run past 2700 rpm at 8000 feet. =C2-So, I don't know wh
at to tell you. =C2-=0A=0AWhen I installed the very first one on N119ST,
it was 9 knots (TAS) faster. =C2-On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was
10 knots (TAS) faster. =C2-Both at 2700 rpm. =C2-My old cowling, howev
er, didn't fit well, was debonding and patched all over. =C2-=0A=0AI wish
you were closer. =C2-=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matro
nics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012
5:04 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a T
iger=0A =0A=0A =0AIf IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a
pointless exercise.=C2- I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS o
f the same density altitude.=C2- The TAS calculations will work out to be
the same in either case.=C2- Note that I completely ignored the IAS in a
number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions t
o compute a TAS using some fun formulas.=C2- The numbers all come out to
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD.=0A=C2-=0ANow
, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will see
no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um co
unter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either.=C2- Of course, the pr
oblem with my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82
=AC=C5=93full=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM
in a speed test at higher altitudes.=C2- I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t i
magine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe)
and running on mineral oil.=C2- So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I
=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not getting yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a 5 k
not speedup after breaking in and switching to normal oil?=C2- =0A=C2-
=0ADan Schmitz=0ATiger 4518B=0AKASH=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-
server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] O
n Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM=0ATo: teamgru
mman-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Ja
guar Cowl on a Tiger=0A=C2-=0ADan, I really can't tell from here what is
with your plane. =C2-I've installed 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slo
wer. =C2-Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? =C2-Indicated airspe
ed is meaningless.=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFro
m:Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 A
M=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
=0A=C2-=0AJust this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test
run last Saturday.=C2- It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with l
ight winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves).=C2- But then I forgo
t most of my past results are on a my airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s poc
ket PC back home.=C2- I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t think my new numbers
are much different maybe one or two knots better.=C2- I dropped in on Br
ooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments
you noted but he was off with his kids.=0A=C2-=0ADo you think if I plug t
he hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rub
ber, will that make any difference?=0A=C2-=0ADan Schmitz=0ATiger 4518B=0A
KASH=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [
mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
=0ASent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.c
om=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
=0A=C2-=0AAny updates on your cowl . . =C2-. speed? =C2-CHTs?=0A=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - The TeamGrumman-List Email
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Si
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=====================0A=C2-=0A=C2
=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3
=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8
^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8
=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC
=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn
=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5
-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3
=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
I think the old rule was to do the run up at full rich. -I've gone to lea
ning to near peak RPM at 1800 then doing the mag checks. -If you forget t
o go full rich on takeoff, it will remind you when the engine stumbles.=0A
=0AWhat plug are you running?=0A=0AWhat gap?=0A=0A=0A______________________
__________=0A From: bkspero <bkspero@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matr
onics.com =0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 8:25 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-Li
st: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List messa
ge posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com>=0A=0A=0ADoug Doty wrote:=0A> ..
... I have noticed that it also needs leaned aggressively on the ground to
run clean and it's best and during ground operation mag checks...=0A> =0A
=0A=0AI am just beginning to play with leaning on the ground.- I had been
simply leaning about an inch with no attention to the effect on idle speed
.- I now find that if I lean to peak idle, it takes about 1.5 inches and
gains about 300 rpm over idle at full rich.=0A=0ABut during the ground runu
p mag check I go back to full rich.- Is that wrong?- Should I be leanin
g for that as well?- I ask because the left mag always runs a little roug
her than the right during the mag check.- The RPM drop for the left mag i
s fine (about 80-100 rpm), and equal to the drop for the right mag.- But
the left mag is noticeably rougher.=0A=0AIf I should be leaning for the mag
check, what technique should I use (eg. run it up rich and lean until roug
h then enrichen slightly?)?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373771#373771=0A=0A=0A=0A
====================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Ned, did you get the cowling modified?=0A=0A=0A____________________________
____=0A From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com"
<teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM=0A
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A
=0A=0ADan,=0AI would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altit
udes, near sea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag re
duction. Also, it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are n
ot setting the engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. B
reaking in a cylinder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil con
sumption has dropped since the new install it's probably already broke in.
Lycoming says keep doing break in procedure for 50 hrs.=0A=0A=C2-I always
set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it by adjust
ing the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum rpm. I f
ly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garmin 430 a
nd also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I try an
d fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am flying a
t equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a fr
eshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flaps ha
ve to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A diffe
rence of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to get
consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect you
r results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat.
If they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another
day. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's
another excuse to go fly;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about
2 kts wide, so it's really hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats
one reason why I record indicated airspeed, true air speed and ground spee
d from the gps on every flight test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin
.=C2-Another uncanny result I continue to experience is that flying direc
tly with the wind almost always gets me 2 more knots than flying directly i
nto the wind. I think David Fletcher told me this was his experience also.
That's not supposed to be that way. Weird huh?=0A=0ASomething to think abou
t is that if you are getting about the same speed as before Jaguar but have
lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. That energy is just being
lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area worth experimenting with;
)=0A=0AMy after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the
cooling is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typic
al speed increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get m
y CHTs back to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I
might see that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.=0ABTW, what brand gauges a
re you using for the temperatures?=0ARegards,=0ANed=0A=0A=0AOn May 24, 2012
, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:=0A=0A=0A =0A>If IA
S is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercise.=C2
- I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude.=C2- The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either cas
e.=C2- Note that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs wh
ere I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using s
ome fun formulas.=C2- The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change
=9D.=0A>=C2-=0A>Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y
density altitude will see no speed change even as there are drag reduction
sum counter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300
=99 with new cowl so far show no changes either.=C2- Of course, the pr
oblem with my high density altitude tests then are they are at =9Cful
l=9D engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher a
ltitudes.=C2- I don=99t imagine my engine is doing its best with a
cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mineral oil.=C2- So there
=99s power I=99m not getting yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a
5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to normal oil?=C2- =0A>=C2
-=0A>Dan Schmitz=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>KASH=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronic
s.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM=0A>T
o: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet P
lugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan, I really can't tell from
here what is with your plane. =C2-I've installed 7 Jaguar Cowlings and no
t one was slower. =C2-Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? =C2-Ind
icated airspeed is meaningless.=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>__________________________
______=0A> =0A>From:Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0A>To: "teamgrumman
-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Wednesday,
May 23, 2012 11:55 AM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jag
uar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>Just this morning, I computed the density
altitudes for a test run last Saturday.=C2- It was a perfect calm day for
speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves).
=C2- But then I forgot most of my past results are on a my airplane
=99s pocket PC back home.=C2- I don=99t think my new numbers are mu
ch different maybe one or two knots better.=C2- I dropped in on Brooks wi
th the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments you not
ed but he was off with his kids.=0A>=C2-=0A>Do you think if I plug the ho
le in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubber,
will that make any difference?=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan Schmitz=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>K
ASH=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vog
t=0A>Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronic
s.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Ti
ger=0A>=C2-=0A>Any updates on your cowl . . =C2-. speed? =C2-CHTs?=0A
>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A===============
================ =0Absp;=C2-=C2-=C2-
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-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site - =0Ahank you for your g
enerous support! =0Absp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
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=================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
On 5/24/2012 8:25 AM, bkspero wrote:
> But during the ground runup mag check I go back to full rich. Is that wrong?
Should I be leaning for that as well? I ask because the left mag always runs
a little rougher than the right during the mag check. The RPM drop for the
left mag is fine (about 80-100 rpm), and equal to the drop for the right mag.
But the left mag is noticeably rougher.
>
> If I should be leaning for the mag check, what technique should I use (eg. run
it up rich and lean until rough then enrichen slightly?)?
First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop
at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then
shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far
as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty
clean for 100 hrs.
Cliff
Message 9
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| Subject: | Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> I think the old rule was to do the run up at full rich. I've gone to leaning
to near peak RPM at 1800 then doing the mag checks. If you forget to go full
rich on takeoff, it will remind you when the engine stumbles.
>
>
> What plug are you running?
>
>
> What gap?
>
>
> [b]
Hi Gary. This is about 74429. Alan had the plugs replaced last September at about
390 hrs on the engine. He had type REM-38E installed. There is no entry
for the gap in the logbook. It was at about 406 hrs when I bought it, and it
is at about 450 hrs now.
I will try the lean runup and see if it helps.
Barry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373803#373803
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
>
>
> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
>
> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop
> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then
> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far
> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty
> clean for 100 hrs.
>
> Cliff
Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the
air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been flying
for hours.
Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup.
Hoping that's the key.
Thanks again.
Barry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
On 5/24/2012 2:19 PM, bkspero wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero"<bkspero@gmail.com>
>
>
> flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
>> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
>> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
>>
>> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop
>> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
>> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
>> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then
>> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
>> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far
>> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
>> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty
>> clean for 100 hrs.
>>
>> Cliff
>
>
> Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the
air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
>
> Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been
flying for hours.
>
> Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup.
Hoping that's the key.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Barry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
>
>
Well, your idle mixture adjustment is way to rich if you are getting
200+ rpm rise when you lean, if your checking it with a warm engine.
You might see that much with a cold engine right after start up.
Turn your idle mixture screw in 1/2 turn and recheck it.
Cliff
Message 13
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| Subject: | Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
I will have some better data after this weekend due to another high
altitude trip. Right now, I would say that I am betting about 5 to 7
knots (versus Lopresti nose bowl) in cruise at 10k. I think it is a
little less down low but try not to firewall it down there so am not too
sure. What I really enjoy are the lower and more even CHTs =93
I=99m easily 30 degrees cooler. I think my previous baffles left
something to be desired so part of that is the new baffles but certainly
not all.
Dean White (Tiger N81166)
Edmonds, WA 98026
dmwhite@e3ra.com
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Vogt
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
Dean, what is your experience with the cowling?
_____
From: Dean White <dmwhite@e3ra.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:12 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
NOT!
Dean White (Tiger N81166)
Edmonds, WA 98026
dmwhite@e3ra.com
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Hausknecht
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
So Gary's cowling decreases speed?
Brian Hausknecht
bhauskne@gmail.com
www.brianflys.net
www.brianflys.com
<http://www.brianflys.com>
_____
From: <http://www.brianflys.com> Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
Sender: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com%3cteamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
<teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
ReplyTo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
Ok, went through and comp= ared numbers. My plane isn=99t any
faster than last year. M= aybe a knot slower actually.
That=99s comparing IAS before and af= ter adjusted for density
altitude as well as GPS derived airspeed (by flying three dire=
ctions) come out about the same as well. Below 9000=99 I kept
the= prop at 2700 RPM (using external monitor not tach) so engine
power isnR= 17;t a variable. At higher altitudes I used whatever full
throttle got me and in both cases RPMs were generally the same at com=
parable density altitudes.
<= /p>
<= /p>
Dan
<= /p>
<= /p>
From: owner-te= amgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@m= atronics.com
<mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@m=%20atronics.com> ] On Behalf
Of Dan Schmitz
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:56 PM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tige=
r
Just this morning, I comp= uted the density altitudes for a test run
last Saturday. It was a per= fect calm day for speed testing with
light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot
most of my past results= are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back
home. I don=99t thin= k my new numbers are much different maybe
one or two knots better. I = dropped in on Brooks with the hopes of
talking to him about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was
off with his kids.
<= /p>
Do you think if I plug th= e hole in the one baffle and close the gap
in the top center with some rubb= er, will that make any difference?
<= /p>
Dan Schmitz
Tiger 4518B
KASH
<= /p>
<= /p>
From: owner-teamgr= umman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com=
<mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com=%20> ] On Behalf
Of Gary Vogt
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tige=
r
Any updates on your= cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
eamGrumman-List Email Forum -
>
:p>
/o:p>
tor?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
:p>
tp://forums.matronics.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -
e> bsp; &nbs= p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. <= /b>
bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2=C2=B7~=B0=C2=B2,
_____
g=93=C3=93=C3=93
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://=====
=================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Gary,
No
What do you mean, modified?
On May 24, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ned, did you get the cowling modified?
>
> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Dan,
> I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near s
ea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Also
, it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting the
engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a cy
linder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has dro
pped since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says kee
p doing break in procedure for 50 hrs.
>
> I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it
by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum
rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garm
in 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I
try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl
ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have
a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap
s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di
fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge
t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo
ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I
f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da
y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly
;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall
y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in
dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig
ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co
ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get
s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher
told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W
eird huh?
>
> Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed a
s before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. Tha
t energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area wor
th experimenting with;)
>
> My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the coolin
g is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical spee
d increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs b
ack to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see
that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.
> BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures?
> Regards,
> Ned
>
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
>> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerc
ise. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alt
itude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. N
ote that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simpl
y used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun form
ulas. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D.
>>
>> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will
see no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-in
tuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so f
ar show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density alti
tude tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean f
or highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine
my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and run
ning on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet.
Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to no
rmal oil?
>>
>> Dan Schmitz
>> Tiger 4518B
>> KASH
>>
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've install
ed 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute Tru
e Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>>
>> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last S
aturday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds comin
g off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resu
lts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thi
nk my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I dropp
ed in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the ad
justments you noted but he was off with his kids.
>>
>> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in th
e top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>>
>> Dan Schmitz
>> Tiger 4518B
>> KASH
>>
>>
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
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s List Features Navigator to browse y List utilities such as List Un/Subscri
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ous support! bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bsp; -
-> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ============
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>>
>> ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF
=BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF
=BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB=AB
z=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=AD=EF
=BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF
=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84:0=EF
=BDZw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=EF
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=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
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&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF
=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BDM=EF=BD $=EF=BDNECI=EF=BD
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=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD
j=EF=BD~m=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD*.=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
1=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD)=DA
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=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lisllow" target="_blank" h
ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http=========
==============
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Dan,
If you only get 138 ktas then you have something else draggen your plane
I suspect that something else isn't overcome by the drag reduction of the Ja
g cowl
If you were closer to Gary, he could find it.
You should at least be in the high 140's
Ned
On May 24, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
> All that work might be worth it to find out I=99m going +/- 2 knots f
or real. 5 knots should be hard to miss, even if I=99m being kinda sl
oppy. I do most speed tests solo starting with full tanks. My usual concer
n is up/down drafts. For =9Csome period of time=9D generally a f
ew minutes, I have to be able to fly hands off at a stable speed and no alti
tude changes. If I=99m doing a GPS test, I do sometimes have to bump t
he ailerons to keep an exact track. My aileron trim isn=99t that perf
ect. If I detect any up/down drafts any time during the flight, I discard t
he entire days numbers.
>
> All my temperature gauges, including OAT, are Electronics International.
>
> Dan
>
>
> I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it
by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum
rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garm
in 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I
try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl
ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have
a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap
s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di
fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge
t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo
ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I
f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da
y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly
;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall
y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in
dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig
ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co
ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get
s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher
told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W
eird huh?
>
> Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed a
s before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. Tha
t energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area wor
th experimenting with;)
>
> My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the coolin
g is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical spee
d increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs b
ack to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see
that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.
> BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures?
> Regards,
> Ned
>
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci
se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No
te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply
used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu
las. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D.
>
> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-intu
itive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so far
show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density altitu
de tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean fo
r highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine m
y engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and runni
ng on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet. D
o most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to norm
al oil?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe
d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True
Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa
turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming
off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul
ts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thin
k my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I droppe
d in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adj
ustments you noted but he was off with his kids.
>
> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the
top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>
>
> ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF
=BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF
=BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB=AB
z=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=AD=EF
=BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD
=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=02=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84
:0=EF=BDZ=1Aw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF
=BD=EF=BDE=01=03=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD
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=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD
=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BDM=13=EF
=BD $=EF=BD=10=11NEC=12I=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=17
=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BDj=1A=EF=BD~=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF
=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD
(=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
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=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD1=EF=BDm=0E=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D=EF=BD)=DA=86=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF
=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF
=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
If I set the plugs, I set them to .018.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 2:10 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:
>> I think the old rule was to do the run up at full rich. I've gone to leaning
to near peak RPM at 1800 then doing the mag checks. If you forget to go full
rich on takeoff, it will remind you when the engine stumbles.
>>
>>
>> What plug are you running?
>>
>>
>> What gap?
>>
>>
>> [b]
>
>
> Hi Gary. This is about 74429. Alan had the plugs replaced last September at
about 390 hrs on the engine. He had type REM-38E installed. There is no entry
for the gap in the logbook. It was at about 406 hrs when I bought it, and
it is at about 450 hrs now.
>
> I will try the lean runup and see if it helps.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373803#373803
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
Most people check the rpm incorrectly.
At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower is better
since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm.
At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm should
go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 rpm.
ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will NOT be
operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the throttle
closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is operating
on the transition circuit.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
>> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
>> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
>>
>> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop
>> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
>> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
>> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then
>> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
>> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far
>> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
>> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty
>> clean for 100 hrs.
>>
>> Cliff
>
>
> Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the
air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
>
> Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been
flying for hours.
>
> Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup.
Hoping that's the key.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
There is a fine dance between the throttle plate setting and the mixture setting.
Look at my web site, front page, technical, and look for setting the engine idle.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 2:28 PM, flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com> wrote:
>
> On 5/24/2012 2:19 PM, bkspero wrote:
>> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero"<bkspero@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
>>> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
>>> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
>>>
>>> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop
>>> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
>>> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
>>> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then
>>> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
>>> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far
>>> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
>>> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty
>>> clean for 100 hrs.
>>>
>>> Cliff
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the
air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
>>
>> Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been
flying for hours.
>>
>> Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup.
Hoping that's the key.
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Well, your idle mixture adjustment is way to rich if you are getting 200+ rpm
rise when you lean, if your checking it with a warm engine. You might see that
much with a cold engine right after start up.
>
> Turn your idle mixture screw in 1/2 turn and recheck it.
>
> Cliff
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sounds
like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft and
engine operating instructions.
Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual.
On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Most people check the rpm incorrectly.
>
> At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower
> is better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm.
>
> At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm
> should go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30
> rpm.
>
> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will
> NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the
> throttle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is
> operating on the transition circuit.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
> >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
> >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
> >>
> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop
> >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
> >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
> >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then
> >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
> >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far
> >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
> >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty
> >> clean for 100 hrs.
> >>
> >> Cliff
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean
> in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
> >
> > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its
> been flying for hours.
> >
> > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag
> runup. Hoping that's the key.
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
N3752W: 144 knots
N1976T: 145 knots
N28747: 148 knots
If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you turnin
g?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
> Me too (wish I was closer). I=99ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conven
tion. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My b
est speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 1
33 to 138? I=99ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000
=99 and that=99s with a 64=9D pitch sensenich. Right abou
t 9000=99 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, n
ot tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Well, Dan,
>
> On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the
hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw
een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 27
00 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
>
> When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster
. On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2
700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patche
d all over.
>
> I wish you were closer.
>
> Gary
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci
se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No
te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply
used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu
las. The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2
=82=AC=EF=BD.
>
> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um c
ounter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem wit
h my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93f
ull=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed t
est at higher altitudes. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t imagine my engine i
s doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mine
ral oil. So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m
not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in a
nd switching to normal oil?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe
d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True
Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa
turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming
off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul
ts are on a my airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s pocket PC back home. I don
=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t think my new numbers are much different maybe one o
r two knots better. I dropped in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him
about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was off with his kids
.
>
> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the
top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>
>
>
> ====================
> <="" span="">
> <spanription,< span="">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> <snbsp; -MattDralle,ListAdmin.<="" span="">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> < span="">
>
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>
>
>
>
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Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Oh, I see what prop now.
I've never flown a Tiger that didn't do at least 138 knots true.
Brian, what are your speeds?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
> Me too (wish I was closer). I=99ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conven
tion. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My b
est speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 1
33 to 138? I=99ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000
=99 and that=99s with a 64=9D pitch sensenich. Right abou
t 9000=99 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, n
ot tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Well, Dan,
>
> On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the
hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw
een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 27
00 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
>
> When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster
. On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2
700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patche
d all over.
>
> I wish you were closer.
>
> Gary
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci
se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No
te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply
used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu
las. The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2
=82=AC=EF=BD.
>
> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um c
ounter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem wit
h my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93f
ull=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed t
est at higher altitudes. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t imagine my engine i
s doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mine
ral oil. So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m
not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in a
nd switching to normal oil?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe
d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True
Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa
turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming
off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul
ts are on a my airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s pocket PC back home. I don
=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t think my new numbers are much different maybe one o
r two knots better. I dropped in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him
about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was off with his kids
.
>
> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the
top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>
>
>
> ====================
> <="" span="">
> <spanription,< span="">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> <snbsp; -MattDralle,ListAdmin.<="" span="">
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> < span="">
>
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Changing the angle of the cowling.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 10:01 PM, 923TE <923te@att.net> wrote:
> Gary,
> No
> What do you mean, modified?
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ned, did you get the cowling modified?
>>
>> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>> Dan,
>> I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near s
ea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Also
, it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting the
engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a cy
linder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has dro
pped since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says kee
p doing break in procedure for 50 hrs.
>>
>> I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check i
t by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximu
m rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Gar
min 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I
try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl
ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have
a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap
s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di
fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge
t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo
ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I
f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da
y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly
;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall
y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in
dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig
ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co
ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get
s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher
told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W
eird huh?
>>
>> Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed a
s before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. Tha
t energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area wor
th experimenting with;)
>>
>> My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the cooli
ng is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical spe
ed increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs b
ack to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see
that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.
>> BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures?
>> Regards,
>> Ned
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exer
cise. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density al
titude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. N
ote that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simpl
y used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun form
ulas. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D.
>>>
>>> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude wil
l see no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-i
ntuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so f
ar show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density alti
tude tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean f
or highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine
my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and run
ning on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet.
Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to no
rmal oil?
>>>
>>> Dan Schmitz
>>> Tiger 4518B
>>> KASH
>>>
>>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrum
man-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
>>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>
>>> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've instal
led 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute Tr
ue Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>>>
>>> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
>>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>
>>> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last S
aturday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds comin
g off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resu
lts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thi
nk my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I dropp
ed in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the ad
justments you noted but he was off with his kids.
>>>
>>> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in t
he top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>>>
>>> Dan Schmitz
>>> Tiger 4518B
>>> KASH
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrum
man-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
>>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>
>>> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ========================
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>>>
>>> ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF
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=BDZw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=EF
=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF
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=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD*.=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
1=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD)=DA
=86=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lisllow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http========
===============
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> =========================
=========
>> cs.com
>> =========================
=========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
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>>
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
Brian H,
Maybe you have trouble understanding the written English. We are not talking
about mag checks. I was not giving unsubstantiated advice.
I am describing setting the engine idle and idle mixture.
If you are having trouble following the conversation, I suggest you reread t
he text. If you are still having trouble following the conversation, go have
another beer and reread it in the morning.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 10:41 PM, Brian Hausknecht <bhauskne@gmail.com> wrote:
> And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sounds
like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft and
engine operating instructions.
>
> Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual.
>
> On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Most people check the rpm incorrectly.
>
> At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower i
s better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm.
>
> At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm sh
ould go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 rpm
.
>
> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will N
OT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the th
rottle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is op
erating on the transition circuit.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
> >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
> >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
> >>
> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm dro
p
> >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
> >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
> >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and the
n
> >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
> >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as fa
r
> >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
> >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run prett
y
> >> clean for 100 hrs.
> >>
> >> Cliff
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean i
n the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
> >
> > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its
been flying for hours.
> >
> > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag
runup. Hoping that's the key.
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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t
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
Nope, didn't misunderstand English. Reread the discussion and you will see
that it includes the mag check process, which is the process we typically
do to check the mags which also includes leaning for the rpm increase. I
see now that you were talking about a different test that is not normally
done, a mixture check at idle. Not in any of my checklists but I see now
that this could be another useful check of idle mixture. Probably something
my AI does at annual.
Sorry for suggesting you were looking at a process different than our
manuals, you were adding another check.
On May 24, 2012 11:06 PM, "Gary L Vogt" <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Brian H,
>
> Maybe you have trouble understanding the written English. We are not
> talking about mag checks. I was not giving unsubstantiated advice.
>
> I am describing setting the engine idle and idle mixture.
>
> If you are having trouble following the conversation, I suggest you reread
> the text. If you are still having trouble following the conversation, go
> have another beer and reread it in the morning.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 10:41 PM, Brian Hausknecht <bhauskne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sounds
> like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft and
> engine operating instructions.
>
> Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual.
> On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Most people check the rpm incorrectly.
>>
>> At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower
>> is better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm.
>>
>> At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm
>> should go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30
>> rpm.
>>
>> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will
>> NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the
>> throttle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is
>> operating on the transition circuit.
>>
>> Gary
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
>> >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from
>> >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
>> >>
>> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm
>> drop
>> >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
>> >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
>> >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and
>> then
>> >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon
>> >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as
>> far
>> >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
>> >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run
>> pretty
>> >> clean for 100 hrs.
>> >>
>> >> Cliff
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean
>> in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
>> >
>> > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or
>> its been flying for hours.
>> >
>> > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean
>> mag runup. Hoping that's the key.
>> >
>> > Thanks again.
>> >
>> > Barry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
As for rpm drop during carb heat teat, I check at 1800 rpm leaned. It's in m
y checklist right after mag check.
I have records of over 2000 post annual checks for engine runup. On the ave
rage, carb heat decreases rpm anywhere from 50 to 100 rpm. It makes a differ
ence what the OAT is, it makes a difference what the altimeter setting is. T
he same plane will show various rpm drops as the annual cycles months over t
he years.
During the carb heat rise testing for the Jaguar cowling, I tested two diffe
rent Tiger air boxes. The early ones (pre-77) give less rpm drop. The air is
n't as hot. Lots of leaks.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 11:03 PM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Brian H,
>
> Maybe you have trouble understanding the written English. We are not talki
ng about mag checks. I was not giving unsubstantiated advice.
>
> I am describing setting the engine idle and idle mixture.
>
> If you are having trouble following the conversation, I suggest you reread
the text. If you are still having trouble following the conversation, go ha
ve another beer and reread it in the morning.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 10:41 PM, Brian Hausknecht <bhauskne@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sound
s like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft an
d engine operating instructions.
>>
>> Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual.
>>
>> On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
m>
>>
>> Most people check the rpm incorrectly.
>>
>> At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower i
s better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm.
>>
>> At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm s
hould go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 rp
m.
>>
>> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will
NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the t
hrottle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is o
perating on the transition circuit.
>>
>> Gary
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully
>> >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise fro
m
>> >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say.
>> >>
>> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm dr
op
>> >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or
>> >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag
>> >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and th
en
>> >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upo
n
>> >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as f
ar
>> >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even
>> >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pret
ty
>> >> clean for 100 hrs.
>> >>
>> >> Cliff
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean
in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low.
>> >
>> > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or it
s been flying for hours.
>> >
>> > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean ma
g runup. Hoping that's the key.
>> >
>> > Thanks again.
>> >
>> > Barry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Li
st
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>>
>
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