---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/24/12: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:08 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz) 2. 07:01 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE) 3. 08:25 AM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero) 4. 10:29 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt) 5. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary Vogt) 6. 10:36 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt) 7. 12:47 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz) 8. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (flyv35b) 9. 01:14 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz) 10. 02:10 PM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero) 11. 02:19 PM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero) 12. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (flyv35b) 13. 09:26 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dean White) 14. 10:02 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE) 15. 10:05 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE) 16. 10:24 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt) 17. 10:33 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt) 18. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt) 19. 10:43 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Brian Hausknecht) 20. 10:46 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary L Vogt) 21. 10:49 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary L Vogt) 22. 10:55 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary L Vogt) 23. 11:04 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt) 24. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Brian Hausknecht) 25. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary L Vogt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:40 AM PST US From: Dan Schmitz Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger SWYgSUFTIGlzIG1lYW5pbmdsZXNzLCB0aGVuIGNvbXB1dGluZyBUQVMgb2ZmIG9mIElBUyBpcyBh IHBvaW50bGVzcyBleGVyY2lzZS4gIEkgd2FzIGNvbXBhcmluZyBJQVMgb2YgZGVuc2l0eSBhbHRp dHVkZSB0byBJQVMgb2YgdGhlIHNhbWUgZGVuc2l0eSBhbHRpdHVkZS4gIFRoZSBUQVMgY2FsY3Vs YXRpb25zIHdpbGwgd29yayBvdXQgdG8gYmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgaW4gZWl0aGVyIGNhc2UuICBOb3Rl IHRoYXQgSSBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IGlnbm9yZWQgdGhlIElBUyBpbiBhIG51bWJlciBvZiB0ZXN0IHJ1 bnMgd2hlcmUgSSBzaW1wbHkgdXNlZCBHUFMgZ3JvdW5kIHNwZWVkIGluIDMgZGlyZWN0aW9ucyB0 byBjb21wdXRlIGEgVEFTIHVzaW5nIHNvbWUgZnVuIGZvcm11bGFzLiAgVGhlIG51bWJlcnMgYWxs IGNvbWUgb3V0IHRvIOKAnG5vIHJlYWwgY2hhbmdl4oCdLg0KDQpOb3csIGJ5IHRoZSBhcmd1bWVu dCB0aGF0IGEgcHJvcCB0dXJuaW5nIFggUlBNIGF0IFkgZGVuc2l0eSBhbHRpdHVkZSB3aWxsIHNl ZSBubyBzcGVlZCBjaGFuZ2UgZXZlbiBhcyB0aGVyZSBhcmUgZHJhZyByZWR1Y3Rpb25z4oCmdW0g 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PT09PT0NCg0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBNQVRST05JQ1MgV0VCIEZPUlVNUyAtDQoNCl8t PSBTYW1lIGdyZWF0IGNvbnRlbnQgYWxzbyBhdmFpbGFibGUgdmlhIHRoZSBXZWIgRm9ydW1zIQ0K DQpfLT0NCg0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQ0KDQpfLT0NCg0K Xy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT0NCg0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24gV2ViIFNpdGUgLQ0K DQpfLT0gIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBnZW5lcm91cyBzdXBwb3J0IQ0KDQpfLT0gICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uDQoNCl8tPSAg IC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQoNCl8tPT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQoNCg0K ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Dan, I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near sea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Also, i t is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting the en gine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a cylin der definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has droppe d since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says keep d oing break in procedure for 50 hrs. I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it b y adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum r pm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garmin 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I t ry and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am flyi ng at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flaps h ave to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A diffe rence of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to get c onsistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect your r esults. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. If t hey don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another day. I t's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly;) Fo od for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's really har d to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record indicat ed airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flight te st. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I continu e to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always gets me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher told m e this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. Weird hu h? Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed as b efore Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. That e nergy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area worth e xperimenting with;) My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the cooling i s better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical speed i ncrease from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs back to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see th at 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for. BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures? Regards, Ned On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz wrote: > If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu las. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D. > > Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s ee no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-intu itive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density altitu de tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean fo r highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine m y engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and runni ng on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet. D o most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to norm al oil? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless. > > From: Dan Schmitz > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul ts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thin k my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I droppe d in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adj ustments you noted but he was off with his kids. > > Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubber, will that make any difference? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs? > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF =BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF =BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB=AB z=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=AD=EF =BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD =EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=02=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84 :0=EF=BDZ=1Aw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF =BD=EF=BDE=01=03=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD =EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD =81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BDM=13=EF =BD $=EF=BD=10=11NEC=12I=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=17 =EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BDj=1A=EF=BD~=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF =A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD (=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*.=EF=BD=07=EF=BDz=EF =BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD1=EF=BDm=0E=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D=EF=BD)=DA=86=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF =BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:53 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: "bkspero" Doug Doty wrote: > ..... I have noticed that it also needs leaned aggressively on the ground to run clean and it's best and during ground operation mag checks... > I am just beginning to play with leaning on the ground. I had been simply leaning about an inch with no attention to the effect on idle speed. I now find that if I lean to peak idle, it takes about 1.5 inches and gains about 300 rpm over idle at full rich. But during the ground runup mag check I go back to full rich. Is that wrong? Should I be leaning for that as well? I ask because the left mag always runs a little rougher than the right during the mag check. The RPM drop for the left mag is fine (about 80-100 rpm), and equal to the drop for the right mag. But the left mag is noticeably rougher. If I should be leaning for the mag check, what technique should I use (eg. run it up rich and lean until rough then enrichen slightly?)? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373771#373771 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:16 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger Well, Dan,=0A=0AOn N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. =C2-Right out of the hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock co wling at altitudes between 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. =C2-It w as also easier to run past 2700 rpm at 8000 feet. =C2-So, I don't know wh at to tell you. =C2-=0A=0AWhen I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster. =C2-On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. =C2-Both at 2700 rpm. =C2-My old cowling, howev er, didn't fit well, was debonding and patched all over. =C2-=0A=0AI wish you were closer. =C2-=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________ =0A From: Dan Schmitz =0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matro nics.com" =0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a T iger=0A =0A=0A =0AIf IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercise.=C2- I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS o f the same density altitude.=C2- The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case.=C2- Note that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions t o compute a TAS using some fun formulas.=C2- The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD.=0A=C2-=0ANow , by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will see no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um co unter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either.=C2- Of course, the pr oblem with my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82 =AC=C5=93full=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes.=C2- I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t i magine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mineral oil.=C2- So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I =C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not getting yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a 5 k not speedup after breaking in and switching to normal oil?=C2- =0A=C2- =0ADan Schmitz=0ATiger 4518B=0AKASH=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list- server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] O n Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM=0ATo: teamgru mman-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Ja guar Cowl on a Tiger=0A=C2-=0ADan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. =C2-I've installed 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slo wer. =C2-Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? =C2-Indicated airspe ed is meaningless.=0A=C2-=0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFro m:Dan Schmitz =0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com " =0ASent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 A M=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger =0A=C2-=0AJust this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Saturday.=C2- It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with l ight winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves).=C2- But then I forgo t most of my past results are on a my airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s poc ket PC back home.=C2- I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t think my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better.=C2- I dropped in on Br ooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was off with his kids.=0A=C2-=0ADo you think if I plug t he hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rub ber, will that make any difference?=0A=C2-=0ADan Schmitz=0ATiger 4518B=0A KASH=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt =0ASent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.c om=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger =0A=C2-=0AAny updates on your cowl . . =C2-. speed? =C2-CHTs?=0A=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - The TeamGrumman-List Email -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Si =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =====================0A=C2-=0A=C2 =C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3 =93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8 ^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8 =C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC =C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn =C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5 -X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3 =C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*' ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:01 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal I think the old rule was to do the run up at full rich. -I've gone to lea ning to near peak RPM at 1800 then doing the mag checks. -If you forget t o go full rich on takeoff, it will remind you when the engine stumbles.=0A =0AWhat plug are you running?=0A=0AWhat gap?=0A=0A=0A______________________ __________=0A From: bkspero =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matr onics.com =0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 8:25 AM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-Li st: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List messa ge posted by: "bkspero" =0A=0A=0ADoug Doty wrote:=0A> .. ... I have noticed that it also needs leaned aggressively on the ground to run clean and it's best and during ground operation mag checks...=0A> =0A =0A=0AI am just beginning to play with leaning on the ground.- I had been simply leaning about an inch with no attention to the effect on idle speed .- I now find that if I lean to peak idle, it takes about 1.5 inches and gains about 300 rpm over idle at full rich.=0A=0ABut during the ground runu p mag check I go back to full rich.- Is that wrong?- Should I be leanin g for that as well?- I ask because the left mag always runs a little roug her than the right during the mag check.- The RPM drop for the left mag i s fine (about 80-100 rpm), and equal to the drop for the right mag.- But the left mag is noticeably rougher.=0A=0AIf I should be leaning for the mag check, what technique should I use (eg. run it up rich and lean until roug h then enrichen slightly?)?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373771#373771=0A=0A=0A=0A ==================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:30 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger Ned, did you get the cowling modified?=0A=0A=0A____________________________ ____=0A From: 923TE <923te@att.net>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM=0A Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A =0A=0ADan,=0AI would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altit udes, near sea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag re duction. Also, it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are n ot setting the engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. B reaking in a cylinder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil con sumption has dropped since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says keep doing break in procedure for 50 hrs.=0A=0A=C2-I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it by adjust ing the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum rpm. I f ly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garmin 430 a nd also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I try an d fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am flying a t equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a fr eshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flaps ha ve to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A diffe rence of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to get consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect you r results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. If they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another day. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's really hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record indicated airspeed, true air speed and ground spee d from the gps on every flight test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin .=C2-Another uncanny result I continue to experience is that flying direc tly with the wind almost always gets me 2 more knots than flying directly i nto the wind. I think David Fletcher told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. Weird huh?=0A=0ASomething to think abou t is that if you are getting about the same speed as before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. That energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area worth experimenting with; )=0A=0AMy after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the cooling is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typic al speed increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get m y CHTs back to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.=0ABTW, what brand gauges a re you using for the temperatures?=0ARegards,=0ANed=0A=0A=0AOn May 24, 2012 , at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz wrote:=0A=0A=0A =0A>If IA S is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercise.=C2 - I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti tude.=C2- The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either cas e.=C2- Note that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs wh ere I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using s ome fun formulas.=C2- The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change =9D.=0A>=C2-=0A>Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will see no speed change even as there are drag reduction sum counter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300 =99 with new cowl so far show no changes either.=C2- Of course, the pr oblem with my high density altitude tests then are they are at =9Cful l=9D engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher a ltitudes.=C2- I don=99t imagine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mineral oil.=C2- So there =99s power I=99m not getting yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to normal oil?=C2- =0A>=C2 -=0A>Dan Schmitz=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>KASH=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumm an-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronic s.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM=0A>T o: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet P lugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. =C2-I've installed 7 Jaguar Cowlings and no t one was slower. =C2-Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? =C2-Ind icated airspeed is meaningless.=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>__________________________ ______=0A> =0A>From:Dan Schmitz =0A>To: "teamgrumman -list@matronics.com" =0A>Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jag uar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Saturday.=C2- It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). =C2- But then I forgot most of my past results are on a my airplane =99s pocket PC back home.=C2- I don=99t think my new numbers are mu ch different maybe one or two knots better.=C2- I dropped in on Brooks wi th the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments you not ed but he was off with his kids.=0A>=C2-=0A>Do you think if I plug the ho le in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan Schmitz=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>K ASH=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vog t=0A>Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronic s.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Ti ger=0A>=C2-=0A>Any updates on your cowl . . =C2-. speed? =C2-CHTs?=0A >=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A=============== ================ =0Absp;=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - Matronics Li st Features Navigator to browse =0Ay List utilities such as List Un/Subscri ption, Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =0Aare, and much much m ore: =0A:p>=0Absp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List :p>=0A======================= ======== =0Absp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =0Aeat content also available via the Web Forums! =0A:p>=0Absp; --> http://forums.matronics.co m :p>=0A====================== ========= =0Absp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site - =0Ahank you for your g enerous support! =0Absp;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =0Absp; --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ============ =================== =0A>=C2-=0Aky =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF =BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94 =B1=EF=BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD ^j=DB=ABz=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =C7=AD=EF=BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy =EF=BD=DC=84:0=EF=BDZw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf =EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF =BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF =BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD. +-=EF=BDM=EF=BD $=EF=BDNECI=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz =EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD~m=EF=BD=EF =BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr =EF=BD(=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF =BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*.=EF=BD =EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD1=EF=BDm =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD)=DA=86=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&j=EF=BD =EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi ================= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:18 PM PST US From: Dan Schmitz Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger QWxsIHRoYXQgd29yayBtaWdodCBiZSB3b3J0aCBpdCB0byBmaW5kIG91dCBJ4oCZbSBnb2luZyAr Ly0gMiBrbm90cyBmb3IgcmVhbC4gIDUga25vdHMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGhhcmQgdG8gbWlzcywgZXZl biBpZiBJ4oCZbSBiZWluZyBraW5kYSBzbG9wcHkuICBJIGRvIG1vc3Qgc3BlZWQgdGVzdHMgc29s byBzdGFydGluZyB3aXRoIGZ1bGwgdGFua3MuICBNeSB1c3VhbCBjb25jZXJuIGlzIHVwL2Rvd24g ZHJhZnRzLiAgRm9yIOKAnHNvbWUgcGVyaW9kIG9mIHRpbWXigJ0gZ2VuZXJhbGx5IGEgZmV3IG1p bnV0ZXMsIEkgaGF2ZSB0byBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGZseSBoYW5kcyBvZmYgYXQgYSBzdGFibGUgc3Bl ZWQgYW5kIG5vIGFsdGl0dWRlIGNoYW5nZXMuICBJZiBJ4oCZbSBkb2luZyBhIEdQUyB0ZXN0LCBJ IGRvIHNvbWV0aW1lcyBoYXZlIHRvIGJ1bXAgdGhlIGFpbGVyb25zIHRvIGtlZXAgYW4gZXhhY3Qg 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Is that wrong? Should I be leaning for that as well? I ask because the left mag always runs a little rougher than the right during the mag check. The RPM drop for the left mag is fine (about 80-100 rpm), and equal to the drop for the right mag. But the left mag is noticeably rougher. > > If I should be leaning for the mag check, what technique should I use (eg. run it up rich and lean until rough then enrichen slightly?)? First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty clean for 100 hrs. Cliff ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:34 PM PST US From: Dan Schmitz Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger TWUgdG9vICh3aXNoIEkgd2FzIGNsb3NlcikuICBJ4oCZbGwgYmUgYXQgT3Noa29zaCBmb3IgdGhl IEFZQSBjb252ZW50aW9uLiAgQW55d2F5IHdoYXQga2luZCBvZiBzcGVlZHMgd2VyZSB5b3UgZ2V0 dGluZyBwcmUgYW5kIHBvc3QgSmFndWFyPyAgTXkgYmVzdCBzcGVlZHMgYm90aCBwcmUgYW5kIHBv c3QgYXJlIDEzOCBrbm90cy4gIERpZCB5b3VyIG90aGVyIHBsYW5lcyBnbyBmcm9tIDEzMyB0byAx Mzg/ICBJ4oCZdmUgYWx3YXlzIGJlZW4gYWJsZSB0byBydW4gYSBiaXQgb3ZlciAyNzAwIFJQTSBh dCA4MDAw4oCZIGFuZCB0aGF04oCZcyB3aXRoIGEgNjTigJ0gcGl0Y2ggc2Vuc2VuaWNoLiAgUmln aHQgYWJvdXQgOTAwMOKAmSBEQSBpcyB3aGVyZSBmdWxsIHRocm90dGxlIGVxdWFscyAyNzAwIFJQ TSAoc3Ryb2JlIGNoZWNrZWQsIG5vdCB0YWNoKSwgYWdhaW4gYm90aCBiZWZvcmUgYW5kIGFmdGVy IHRoZSBuZXcgY293bC4NCg0KRGFuDQoNCkZyb206IG93bmVyLXRlYW1ncnVtbWFuLWxpc3Qtc2Vy dmVyQG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20gW21haWx0bzpvd25lci10ZWFtZ3J1bW1hbi1saXN0LXNlcnZlckBt 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Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:36 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: "bkspero" teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: > I think the old rule was to do the run up at full rich. I've gone to leaning to near peak RPM at 1800 then doing the mag checks. If you forget to go full rich on takeoff, it will remind you when the engine stumbles. > > > What plug are you running? > > > What gap? > > > [b] Hi Gary. This is about 74429. Alan had the plugs replaced last September at about 390 hrs on the engine. He had type REM-38E installed. There is no entry for the gap in the logbook. It was at about 406 hrs when I bought it, and it is at about 450 hrs now. I will try the lean runup and see if it helps. Barry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373803#373803 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:23 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: "bkspero" flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: > > > First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully > warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from > full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. > > I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop > at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or > thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag > check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then > shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon > throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far > as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even > at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty > clean for 100 hrs. > > Cliff Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been flying for hours. Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup. Hoping that's the key. Thanks again. Barry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:09 PM PST US From: flyv35b Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal On 5/24/2012 2:19 PM, bkspero wrote: > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" > > > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: >> >> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. >> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty >> clean for 100 hrs. >> >> Cliff > > > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. > > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been flying for hours. > > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup. Hoping that's the key. > > Thanks again. > > Barry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 > > Well, your idle mixture adjustment is way to rich if you are getting 200+ rpm rise when you lean, if your checking it with a warm engine. You might see that much with a cold engine right after start up. Turn your idle mixture screw in 1/2 turn and recheck it. Cliff ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:36 PM PST US From: "Dean White" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger I will have some better data after this weekend due to another high altitude trip. Right now, I would say that I am betting about 5 to 7 knots (versus Lopresti nose bowl) in cruise at 10k. I think it is a little less down low but try not to firewall it down there so am not too sure. What I really enjoy are the lower and more even CHTs =93 I=99m easily 30 degrees cooler. I think my previous baffles left something to be desired so part of that is the new baffles but certainly not all. Dean White (Tiger N81166) Edmonds, WA 98026 dmwhite@e3ra.com From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:44 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger Dean, what is your experience with the cowling? _____ From: Dean White Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:12 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger NOT! Dean White (Tiger N81166) Edmonds, WA 98026 dmwhite@e3ra.com From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Hausknecht Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 5:41 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger So Gary's cowling decreases speed? Brian Hausknecht bhauskne@gmail.com www.brianflys.net www.brianflys.com _____ From: Dan Schmitz Sender: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger Ok, went through and comp= ared numbers. My plane isn=99t any faster than last year. M= aybe a knot slower actually. That=99s comparing IAS before and af= ter adjusted for density altitude as well as GPS derived airspeed (by flying three dire= ctions) come out about the same as well. Below 9000=99 I kept the= prop at 2700 RPM (using external monitor not tach) so engine power isnR= 17;t a variable. At higher altitudes I used whatever full throttle got me and in both cases RPMs were generally the same at com= parable density altitudes. <= /p> <= /p> Dan <= /p> <= /p> From: owner-te= amgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@m= atronics.com ] On Behalf Of Dan Schmitz Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:56 PM Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tige= r Just this morning, I comp= uted the density altitudes for a test run last Saturday. It was a per= fect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past results= are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thin= k my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I = dropped in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was off with his kids. <= /p> Do you think if I plug th= e hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubb= er, will that make any difference? <= /p> Dan Schmitz Tiger 4518B KASH <= /p> <= /p> From: owner-teamgr= umman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com= ] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tige= r Any updates on your= cowl . . . speed? CHTs? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D eamGrumman-List Email Forum - > :p> /o:p> tor?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - :p> tp://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - e> bsp; &nbs= p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. <= /b> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2=C2=B7~=B0=C2=B2, _____ g=93=C3=93=C3=93 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listhttp://===== ================= ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Gary, No What do you mean, modified? On May 24, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > Ned, did you get the cowling modified? > > From: 923TE <923te@att.net> > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Dan, > I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near s ea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Also , it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting the engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a cy linder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has dro pped since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says kee p doing break in procedure for 50 hrs. > > I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garm in 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly ;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W eird huh? > > Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed a s before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. Tha t energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area wor th experimenting with;) > > My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the coolin g is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical spee d increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs b ack to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for. > BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures? > Regards, > Ned > > > On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz wrote: > >> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerc ise. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alt itude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. N ote that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simpl y used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun form ulas. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D. >> >> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will see no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-in tuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so f ar show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density alti tude tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean f or highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and run ning on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to no rmal oil? >> >> Dan Schmitz >> Tiger 4518B >> KASH >> >> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt >> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM >> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >> >> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've install ed 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute Tru e Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless. >> >> From: Dan Schmitz >> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM >> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >> >> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last S aturday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds comin g off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resu lts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thi nk my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I dropp ed in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the ad justments you noted but he was off with his kids. >> >> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in th e top center with some rubber, will that make any difference? >> >> Dan Schmitz >> Tiger 4518B >> KASH >> >> >> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt >> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM >> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >> >> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs? >> >> >> >> ========================= ====== bsp; - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - Matronic s List Features Navigator to browse y List utilities such as List Un/Subscri ption, Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, are, and much much more: : p> bsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List :p> === ========================== == bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - eat content also available v ia the Web Forums! :p> bsp; --> http://forums.matronics.com :p> ==== == bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - hank you for your gener ous support! bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bsp; - -> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ============ ================== >> >> ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF =BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF =BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB=AB z=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=AD=EF =BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF =BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84:0=EF =BDZw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=EF =BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF =BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD &j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF =BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BDM=EF=BD $=EF=BDNECI=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD j=EF=BD~m=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD*.=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD 1=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD)=DA =86=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&j=EF=BD=EF =BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lisllow" target="_blank" h ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http========= ============== > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Dan, If you only get 138 ktas then you have something else draggen your plane I suspect that something else isn't overcome by the drag reduction of the Ja g cowl If you were closer to Gary, he could find it. You should at least be in the high 140's Ned On May 24, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Dan Schmitz wrote: > All that work might be worth it to find out I=99m going +/- 2 knots f or real. 5 knots should be hard to miss, even if I=99m being kinda sl oppy. I do most speed tests solo starting with full tanks. My usual concer n is up/down drafts. For =9Csome period of time=9D generally a f ew minutes, I have to be able to fly hands off at a stable speed and no alti tude changes. If I=99m doing a GPS test, I do sometimes have to bump t he ailerons to keep an exact track. My aileron trim isn=99t that perf ect. If I detect any up/down drafts any time during the flight, I discard t he entire days numbers. > > All my temperature gauges, including OAT, are Electronics International. > > Dan > > > I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check it by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximum rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Garm in 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly ;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W eird huh? > > Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed a s before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. Tha t energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area wor th experimenting with;) > > My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the coolin g is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical spee d increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs b ack to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for. > BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures? > Regards, > Ned > > > On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz wrote: > > If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu las. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D. > > Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s ee no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-intu itive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density altitu de tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean fo r highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine m y engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and runni ng on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet. D o most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to norm al oil? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless. > > From: Dan Schmitz > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul ts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thin k my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I droppe d in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adj ustments you noted but he was off with his kids. > > Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubber, will that make any difference? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs? > > > ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF =BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF =BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB=AB z=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=AD=EF =BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD =EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=02=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84 :0=EF=BDZ=1Aw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF =BD=EF=BDE=01=03=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD =EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD =81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BDM=13=EF =BD $=EF=BD=10=11NEC=12I=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=17 =EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BDj=1A=EF=BD~=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF =A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD (=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*.=EF=BD=07=EF=BDz=EF =BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD1=EF=BDm=0E=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D=EF=BD)=DA=86=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF =BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Gary L Vogt If I set the plugs, I set them to .018. Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 2:10 PM, "bkspero" wrote: > > > teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: >> I think the old rule was to do the run up at full rich. I've gone to leaning to near peak RPM at 1800 then doing the mag checks. If you forget to go full rich on takeoff, it will remind you when the engine stumbles. >> >> >> What plug are you running? >> >> >> What gap? >> >> >> [b] > > > Hi Gary. This is about 74429. Alan had the plugs replaced last September at about 390 hrs on the engine. He had type REM-38E installed. There is no entry for the gap in the logbook. It was at about 406 hrs when I bought it, and it is at about 450 hrs now. > > I will try the lean runup and see if it helps. > > Barry > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373803#373803 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Gary L Vogt Most people check the rpm incorrectly. At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower is better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm. At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm should go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 rpm. ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the throttle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is operating on the transition circuit. Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" wrote: > > > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: >> >> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. >> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty >> clean for 100 hrs. >> >> Cliff > > > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. > > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been flying for hours. > > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup. Hoping that's the key. > > Thanks again. > > Barry > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Gary L Vogt There is a fine dance between the throttle plate setting and the mixture setting. Look at my web site, front page, technical, and look for setting the engine idle. Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 2:28 PM, flyv35b wrote: > > On 5/24/2012 2:19 PM, bkspero wrote: >> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" >> >> >> flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully >>> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from >>> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. >>> >>> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop >>> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or >>> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag >>> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then >>> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon >>> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far >>> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even >>> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty >>> clean for 100 hrs. >>> >>> Cliff >> >> >> Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. >> >> Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been flying for hours. >> >> Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup. Hoping that's the key. >> >> Thanks again. >> >> Barry >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Well, your idle mixture adjustment is way to rich if you are getting 200+ rpm rise when you lean, if your checking it with a warm engine. You might see that much with a cold engine right after start up. > > Turn your idle mixture screw in 1/2 turn and recheck it. > > Cliff > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Brian Hausknecht And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sounds like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft and engine operating instructions. Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual. On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" wrote: > > > > Most people check the rpm incorrectly. > > At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower > is better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm. > > At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm > should go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 > rpm. > > ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will > NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the > throttle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is > operating on the transition circuit. > > Gary > Sent from my iPad > > On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" wrote: > > > > > > > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: > >> > >> > >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully > >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from > >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. > >> > >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm drop > >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or > >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag > >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and then > >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon > >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as far > >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even > >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pretty > >> clean for 100 hrs. > >> > >> Cliff > > > > > > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean > in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. > > > > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its > been flying for hours. > > > > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag > runup. Hoping that's the key. > > > > Thanks again. > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger From: Gary L Vogt N3752W: 144 knots N1976T: 145 knots N28747: 148 knots If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you turnin g? Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz wrote: > Me too (wish I was closer). I=99ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conven tion. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My b est speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 1 33 to 138? I=99ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000 =99 and that=99s with a 64=9D pitch sensenich. Right abou t 9000=99 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, n ot tach), again both before and after the new cowl. > > Dan > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Well, Dan, > > On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 27 00 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you. > > When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster . On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2 700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patche d all over. > > I wish you were closer. > > Gary > > From: Dan Schmitz > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu las. The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2 =82=AC=EF=BD. > > Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um c ounter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC=84 =A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem wit h my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93f ull=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed t est at higher altitudes. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t imagine my engine i s doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mine ral oil. So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in a nd switching to normal oil? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless. > > From: Dan Schmitz > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul ts are on a my airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s pocket PC back home. I don =C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t think my new numbers are much different maybe one o r two knots better. I dropped in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was off with his kids .. > > Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubber, will that make any difference? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? 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=BD=042=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDq=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF =BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=1D=EF=BD=EF=BDZr=D8=A8=EF=BD=1Bm=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=87&=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF =BD=1Ej=EF=BD!=EF=BDzn=EF=BD=DC=A9z=C7=9A=EF=BD=EF=BDgjg=EF =BD=EF=BDV=EF=BDz=1A%u=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=86=EF=BD^Y =EF=BD=EF=BD)^=EF=BD'm=EF=BD]4~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF =BDH^=EF=BD=08m=EF=BDJq=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~)=EF=BDM=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD^j=EF=BD=EF=BD=1C=1EnH=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF =BD,=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=08=EF =BD=EF=BD=1Et=D2=9C=7F=EF=BDzn=EF=BD=DC=A9z=18=EF=BDu=EF=BD =EF=BDj[=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDm=CA=97=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD+r=19=DA=99=EF=BDl=EF=BD=EF =BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BDq=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BDv'=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD]=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD{=EF =BDb=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDL=EF=BD=EF=BDM=12=0F8=EF=BDD<=EF =BD?n=EF=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger From: Gary L Vogt Oh, I see what prop now. I've never flown a Tiger that didn't do at least 138 knots true. Brian, what are your speeds? Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz wrote: > Me too (wish I was closer). I=99ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conven tion. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My b est speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 1 33 to 138? I=99ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000 =99 and that=99s with a 64=9D pitch sensenich. Right abou t 9000=99 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, n ot tach), again both before and after the new cowl. > > Dan > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Well, Dan, > > On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 27 00 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you. > > When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster . On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2 700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patche d all over. > > I wish you were closer. > > Gary > > From: Dan Schmitz > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu las. The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2 =82=AC=EF=BD. > > Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um c ounter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC=84 =A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem wit h my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93f ull=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed t est at higher altitudes. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t imagine my engine i s doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mine ral oil. So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in a nd switching to normal oil? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've installe d 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute True Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless. > > From: Dan Schmitz > To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM > Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last Sa turday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds coming off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resul ts are on a my airplane=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s pocket PC back home. I don =C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t think my new numbers are much different maybe one o r two knots better. I dropped in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the adjustments you noted but he was off with his kids .. > > Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in the top center with some rubber, will that make any difference? > > Dan Schmitz > Tiger 4518B > KASH > > > From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger > > Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? 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Time: 10:55:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger From: Gary L Vogt Changing the angle of the cowling. Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 10:01 PM, 923TE <923te@att.net> wrote: > Gary, > No > What do you mean, modified? > > > > On May 24, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > >> Ned, did you get the cowling modified? >> >> From: 923TE <923te@att.net> >> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" >> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM >> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >> >> Dan, >> I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near s ea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Also , it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting the engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a cy linder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has dro pped since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says kee p doing break in procedure for 50 hrs. >> >> I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check i t by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximu m rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Gar min 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly ;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W eird huh? >> >> Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed a s before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. Tha t energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area wor th experimenting with;) >> >> My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the cooli ng is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical spe ed increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs b ack to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might see that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for. >> BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures? >> Regards, >> Ned >> >> >> On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz wrote: >> >>> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exer cise. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density al titude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. N ote that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simpl y used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun form ulas. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D. >>> >>> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude wil l see no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-i ntuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so f ar show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density alti tude tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lean f or highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imagine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and run ning on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to no rmal oil? >>> >>> Dan Schmitz >>> Tiger 4518B >>> KASH >>> >>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrum man-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt >>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM >>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >>> >>> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've instal led 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute Tr ue Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless. >>> >>> From: Dan Schmitz >>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM >>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >>> >>> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last S aturday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds comin g off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past resu lts are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t thi nk my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I dropp ed in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the ad justments you noted but he was off with his kids. >>> >>> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in t he top center with some rubber, will that make any difference? >>> >>> Dan Schmitz >>> Tiger 4518B >>> KASH >>> >>> >>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrum man-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM >>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger >>> >>> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs? >>> >>> >>> >>> ======================== ======= bsp; - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - Matro nics List Features Navigator to browse y List utilities such as List Un/Subs cription, Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, are, and much much mor e: :p> bsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List :p> == ========================== === bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - eat content also availab le via the Web Forums! :p> bsp; --> http://forums.matronics.com :p> === === bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - hank you for your ge nerous support! bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bs p; --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== =================== >>> >>> ky=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD"=EF=BD=ED=9C=A2Z+=EF=BDM4=EF=BDG=EF =BDq=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDw=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D3=85=EF=BD=EF=BDja=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF =BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB=AB z=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=AD=EF =BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF =BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84:0=EF =BDZw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=EF =BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF =BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD &j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF =BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BDM=EF=BD $=EF=BDNECI=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD j=EF=BD~m=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD*.=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD 1=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD)=DA =86=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&j=EF=BD=EF =BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lisllow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http======== =============== >> >> >> >> >> >> ========================= ========= >> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> ========================= ========= >> cs.com >> ========================= ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========================= ========= >> > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Gary L Vogt Brian H, Maybe you have trouble understanding the written English. We are not talking about mag checks. I was not giving unsubstantiated advice. I am describing setting the engine idle and idle mixture. If you are having trouble following the conversation, I suggest you reread t he text. If you are still having trouble following the conversation, go have another beer and reread it in the morning. Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 10:41 PM, Brian Hausknecht wrote: > And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sounds like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft and engine operating instructions. > > Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual. > > On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" wrote: > > > Most people check the rpm incorrectly. > > At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower i s better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm. > > At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm sh ould go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 rpm .. > > ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will N OT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the th rottle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is op erating on the transition circuit. > > Gary > Sent from my iPad > > On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" wrote: > > > > > > > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: > >> > >> > >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully > >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from > >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. > >> > >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm dro p > >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or > >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag > >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and the n > >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon > >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as fa r > >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even > >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run prett y > >> clean for 100 hrs. > >> > >> Cliff > > > > > > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean i n the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. > > > > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or its been flying for hours. > > > > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean mag runup. Hoping that's the key. > > > > Thanks again. > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis t > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Brian Hausknecht Nope, didn't misunderstand English. Reread the discussion and you will see that it includes the mag check process, which is the process we typically do to check the mags which also includes leaning for the rpm increase. I see now that you were talking about a different test that is not normally done, a mixture check at idle. Not in any of my checklists but I see now that this could be another useful check of idle mixture. Probably something my AI does at annual. Sorry for suggesting you were looking at a process different than our manuals, you were adding another check. On May 24, 2012 11:06 PM, "Gary L Vogt" wrote: > Brian H, > > Maybe you have trouble understanding the written English. We are not > talking about mag checks. I was not giving unsubstantiated advice. > > I am describing setting the engine idle and idle mixture. > > If you are having trouble following the conversation, I suggest you reread > the text. If you are still having trouble following the conversation, go > have another beer and reread it in the morning. > > Gary > Sent from my iPad > > On May 24, 2012, at 10:41 PM, Brian Hausknecht wrote: > > And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sounds > like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft and > engine operating instructions. > > Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual. > On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" wrote: > >> teamgrumman@yahoo.com> >> >> Most people check the rpm incorrectly. >> >> At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower >> is better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm. >> >> At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm >> should go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 >> rpm. >> >> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will >> NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the >> throttle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is >> operating on the transition circuit. >> >> Gary >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully >> >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise from >> >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. >> >> >> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm >> drop >> >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or >> >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag >> >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and >> then >> >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upon >> >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as >> far >> >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even >> >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run >> pretty >> >> clean for 100 hrs. >> >> >> >> Cliff >> > >> > >> > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean >> in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. >> > >> > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or >> its been flying for hours. >> > >> > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean >> mag runup. Hoping that's the key. >> > >> > Thanks again. >> > >> > Barry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========== >> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal From: Gary L Vogt As for rpm drop during carb heat teat, I check at 1800 rpm leaned. It's in m y checklist right after mag check. I have records of over 2000 post annual checks for engine runup. On the ave rage, carb heat decreases rpm anywhere from 50 to 100 rpm. It makes a differ ence what the OAT is, it makes a difference what the altimeter setting is. T he same plane will show various rpm drops as the annual cycles months over t he years. During the carb heat rise testing for the Jaguar cowling, I tested two diffe rent Tiger air boxes. The early ones (pre-77) give less rpm drop. The air is n't as hot. Lots of leaks. Gary Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2012, at 11:03 PM, Gary L Vogt wrote: > Brian H, > > Maybe you have trouble understanding the written English. We are not talki ng about mag checks. I was not giving unsubstantiated advice. > > I am describing setting the engine idle and idle mixture. > > If you are having trouble following the conversation, I suggest you reread the text. If you are still having trouble following the conversation, go ha ve another beer and reread it in the morning. > > Gary > Sent from my iPad > > On May 24, 2012, at 10:41 PM, Brian Hausknecht wrote: > >> And yet the standard procedure we are all taught is 1800 Mag check. Sound s like you are giving unsubstantiated advice that is contrary to aircraft an d engine operating instructions. >> >> Probably better to stick to the aircraft operating manual. >> >> On May 24, 2012 10:36 PM, "Gary L Vogt" wrote: m> >> >> Most people check the rpm incorrectly. >> >> At idle, full rich, engine warm, it should idle about 600-650 rpm. Lower i s better since it makes landing easier. My plane idles at 450 rpm. >> >> At idle, very slowly pull the mixture out. Very slowly. The engine rpm s hould go up roughly 50 rpm at sea level. At 1500 feet, figure about 25-30 rp m. >> >> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the t hrottle closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is o perating on the transition circuit. >> >> Gary >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On May 24, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "bkspero" wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> First off you can't check the idle mixture unless the engine is fully >> >> warmed up (after flying). Then you should get about a 25 rpm rise fro m >> >> full rich when you lean slowly at 800-1000 rpm, say. >> >> >> >> I always check carb heat at full rich mixture and see about 100 rpm dr op >> >> at 1700rpm. I then lean to max rpm and it rises about 50 rpm or >> >> thereabouts. I let it run there for 10 seconds and then do the mag >> >> check with it leaned. I leave it leaned until ready to takeoff and th en >> >> shove the mixture in. You won't forget as the engine will stumble upo n >> >> throttle application if you forget. I always taxi with it leaned as f ar >> >> as the engine with still run smoothly. I always lean in the air, even >> >> at low altitude, when the power is reduced for cruise. Plugs run pret ty >> >> clean for 100 hrs. >> >> >> >> Cliff >> > >> > >> > Thanks for the input, Cliff. I now taxi lean to peak rpm. And do lean in the air even at low altitude as long as the power is low. >> > >> > Plane gives the 200+ idle rpm increase whether the engine is cold or it s been flying for hours. >> > >> > Makes sense to do the carb heat check while rich. Will try the lean ma g runup. Hoping that's the key. >> > >> > Thanks again. >> > >> > Barry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373807#373807 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========== >> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Li st >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution >> > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.