Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:35 AM - Re: ElectroAir (FLYaDIVE)
2. 04:57 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
4. 05:45 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
5. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (flyv35b)
6. 08:35 AM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero)
7. 09:22 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Dan Schmitz)
8. 12:24 PM - Re: ElectroAir (Gary Vogt)
9. 12:27 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt)
10. 12:46 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (n26390@AOL.COM)
11. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (Gary Vogt)
12. 01:01 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt)
13. 01:18 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Gary Vogt)
14. 03:48 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (Bob Steward)
15. 07:18 PM - Improve fit of upper cowl (bkspero)
16. 08:21 PM - Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (Gary Vogt)
17. 08:40 PM - Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (bkspero)
18. 08:41 PM - Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (Gary L Vogt)
19. 08:46 PM - Jaguar cowling (Gary L Vogt)
20. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (Gary L Vogt)
21. 09:30 PM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
22. 09:50 PM - Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (gketell)
23. 09:55 PM - Re: Jaguar cowling (gketell)
24. 10:07 PM - Re: Re: Jaguar cowling (Gary L Vogt)
25. 10:34 PM - Re: Re: Jaguar cowling (923TE)
Message 1
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Hi Gary:
I don't want you to think I left you hanging out there, I was away for a
while.
Here are pictures of the 'silver' box (aluminum). The
newer certified units must have changed to black. See picture # 001
As I mentioned, under the box are the two adjustments. But, before you go
there look at the underside of the box.
You will notice two slots, one of the slots has a foam rubber insert.
This inset presses up against the adjustments and is used to hold them from
moving. See picture # 010 & 011
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Barry,
The unit that replaces the mag is similar to the magnetic pickup on the cam
(or crank) on cars.
- Just like in a car, it begins it's timing sequence at 0 BTDC.
- There is no adjustment inside any box.
[Barry] - See above - These are the adjustments. They are also called out
in the manual. See picture # 010 & 011
- There is nothing to rub or wear out.
[Barry] ' Well that is dependent on if you want to consider vibration on
the adjustments.
And that is why the rubber presses against the two adjustment knobs. See
picture# 010 & 011
- The only moving part is a 60 tooth wheel inside the unit used in place
of
right mag.
The DIS, just like in your car, requires that the engine go through one
complete ignition sequence (2 revolutions) before it knows where it is.
The backfiring was due to this learning curve. Following the instructions
in the install manual, there will be a toggle that turns the unit off and
on.
- The coil is not in that loop. The coil stays hot. Two circuit breaker
s.
Two circuits.
- You will not get a backfire unless you intentionally turn of both left
and right and then turn one or the other on.
Starting is done on both mags since they are both at 0 BTDC.
Mag drop is tested by shutting off the Electroair with the toggle (this
tests the left mag): 80 rpm drop
Electroair turned back on. No backfire.
Switch to Right Mag (this shorts the left mag and tests the Electroair):
No noticeable drop in rpm.
[Barry] - As stated, I have never tried starting on the EIS, since the RV6
has an Impulse Mag. Not my plane and the owner wants to start
on Impulse so that is what I do.
If you need a copy of the OLD (I call it old because it is for the original
experimental version) operations manual I have pictures.
Barry
Message 2
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| Subject: | Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Then no I did not modify the cowling itself. What I did was:
1) I tightened the top pilot side engine mount as it had no threads showing
2) this brought the spinner into alignment with the factory cowl
3) the Jaguar cowl was now too short when aligned with the spinner in its pr
oper position
4) I lengthened the Jaguar cowl probably to the same length it was when it c
ame out of the molds before it was trimmed
5) I performed the Jaguar cowl installation according to the installation in
structions you provided.
Ned
On May 25, 2012, at 12:54 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Changing the angle of the cowling.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 10:01 PM, 923TE <923te@att.net> wrote:
>
>> Gary,
>> No
>> What do you mean, modified?
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ned, did you get the cowling modified?
>>>
>>> From: 923TE <923te@att.net>
>>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 7:00 AM
>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>
>>> Dan,
>>> I would think that flight testing and comparing at lower altitudes, near
sea level if possible, would maximize any effects due to drag reduction. Al
so, it is very difficult to get repeatable results. If you are not setting t
he engine the same you probably won't get repeatable results. Breaking in a c
ylinder definitely has a negative effect. But if your oil consumption has dr
opped since the new install it's probably already broke in. Lycoming says ke
ep doing break in procedure for 50 hrs.
>>>
>>> I always set for best power by the Lycoming book method and then check i
t by adjusting the mixture with the prop set in manual mode to ensure maximu
m rpm. I fly at equivalent density altitude calculated on the fly by the Gar
min 430 and also do the compass ordinates and formulas for wind correction. I
try and fly at the same OAT. Seems to make a difference even though I am fl
ying at equivalent DAs. I always have the same amount of fuel on board, have
a freshly cleaned and waxed plane and prop and ensure the same CG. The flap
s have to be in exactly the same position, whatever that was last time. A di
fference of even 1 deg up or down will effect your speed. This is hard to ge
t consistent. If a trim tab was touched between tests it will also affect yo
ur results. I always repeat the test 3 or 4 times until the numbers repeat. I
f they don't repeat then something is changing and I quit and try another da
y. It's really tedious to get good numbers but it's another excuse to go fly
;) Food for thought, the air speed needle is about 2 kts wide, so it's reall
y hard to detect a 1-2 knot speed increase. Thats one reason why I record in
dicated airspeed, true air speed and ground speed from the gps on every flig
ht test. The last 2 are digital from the Garmin. Another uncanny result I co
ntinue to experience is that flying directly with the wind almost always get
s me 2 more knots than flying directly into the wind. I think David Fletcher
told me this was his experience also. That's not supposed to be that way. W
eird huh?
>>>
>>> Something to think about is that if you are getting about the same speed
as before Jaguar but have lower CHTs then you are in effect going faster. T
hat energy is just being lost by the increased cooling drag. Maybe an area w
orth experimenting with;)
>>>
>>> My after Jag experience is that the speed is about the same but the cool
ing is better by about 45 deg F. My plane was already fast so the typical sp
eed increase from the Jag wouldn't be as likely for it. If I can get my CHTs
back to 380s from the now 330s by cooling drag reduction, I think I might s
ee that 5-7 kts increase I had hoped for.
>>> BTW, what brand gauges are you using for the temperatures?
>>> Regards,
>>> Ned
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exe
rcise. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density a
ltitude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case.
Note that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I sim
ply used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun fo
rmulas. The numbers all come out to =9Cno real change=9D.
>>>>
>>>> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude wi
ll see no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-
intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=99 with new cowl so
far show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density al
titude tests then are they are at =9Cfull=9D engine power, I lea
n for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=99t imag
ine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and r
unning on mineral oil. So there=99s power I=99m not getting yet
. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to n
ormal oil?
>>>>
>>>> Dan Schmitz
>>>> Tiger 4518B
>>>> KASH
>>>>
>>>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgru
mman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:37 AM
>>>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>>
>>>> Dan, I really can't tell from here what is with your plane. I've insta
lled 7 Jaguar Cowlings and not one was slower. Do you know how to compute T
rue Airspeed? Indicated airspeed is meaningless.
>>>>
>>>> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>>>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:55 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>>
>>>> Just this morning, I computed the density altitudes for a test run last
Saturday. It was a perfect calm day for speed testing with light winds com
ing off the ocean (no mountain waves). But then I forgot most of my past re
sults are on a my airplane=99s pocket PC back home. I don=99t t
hink my new numbers are much different maybe one or two knots better. I dro
pped in on Brooks with the hopes of talking to him about making some of the a
djustments you noted but he was off with his kids.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think if I plug the hole in the one baffle and close the gap in t
he top center with some rubber, will that make any difference?
>>>>
>>>> Dan Schmitz
>>>> Tiger 4518B
>>>> KASH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgru
mman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:50 PM
>>>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>>>
>>>> Any updates on your cowl . . . speed? CHTs?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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=BDj=EF=BD~m=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD*.=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD1=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
)=DA=86=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&j=EF
=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF=BDw/=EF=BDi
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lisllow" target="_blank
" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http========
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atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
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ontribution
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Dan the only way to get good results is at wide open throttle. You have no w
ay of positively identifying when you are at 75% power in any consistent way
. So if your "flight testing" was not done at wide open throttle and at the s
ame best power setting then your data has no use in a pre - post Jaguar spee
d comparison. Calculated results just don't cut it.
When I change direction I fly for a minimum of 10 minutes on that new headin
g before I am confident that I am seeing a stabilized air speed. Flight test
ing is not really that easy to perform.
On May 25, 2012, at 6:52 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
> Is that full throttle at sea level? I should say that my 138 knots was st
aying within the bounds of 75% power. If I did full power at 1000=99 I
expect I=99d be in the low 140s for sure. Don=99t know how hig
h.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt
> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> N3752W: 144 knots
> N1976T: 145 knots
> N28747: 148 knots
>
> If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you turn
ing?
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
> Me too (wish I was closer). I=99ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conven
tion. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My b
est speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 1
33 to 138? I=99ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000
=99 and that=99s with a 64=9D pitch sensenich. Right abou
t 9000=99 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, n
ot tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Well, Dan,
>
> On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the
hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw
een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 27
00 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
>
> When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster
. On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2
700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patche
d all over.
>
> I wish you were closer.
>
> Gary
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci
se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No
te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply
used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu
las. The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2
=82=AC=EF=BD.
>
> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um c
ounter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem wit
h my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93f
ull=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed t
est at higher altitudes. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t imagine my engine i
s doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mine
ral oil. So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m
not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in a
nd switching to normal oil?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^M=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=CB=8A=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=16=EF
=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF=BD=17=EF=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA
=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1B=EF=BD=EF=BD
,z=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF
=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD
+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BDp+r=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF
=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP=10>=1A
-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BD
j+y=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF=BD=EF=BDj
=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD0=04=EF=BD8=EF=BD=02Ia=01=14=EF=BDT1$=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD+y=EF=BD\=EF=BD{^=EF=BD=D6=A5=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj)
ZnW=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDayg=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j
=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=16=EF=BD=EF=BD
*.~=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD
=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=01=D9=A2=EF
=BD=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD
=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF
=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF
=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BD=7F=EF
=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
On 5/24/2012 10:33 PM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
> --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gary L Vogt<teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle and the carb will NOT
be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm rise without the throttle
closed will give an artificially rich indication since the carb is operating
on the transition circuit.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
Where is that documented? I think the idle circuit goes much higher
than 650 rpm as I found out in the middle of Australia when flying a
Tiger which had the idle circuit completely blocked with debris!
Cliff
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> If I set the plugs, I set them to .018.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 2:10 PM, "bkspero" wrote:
>
>
No, these were installed by the other A&P that Alan tried.
I will check the mixture as you described. Most of my hot adjustments of the mixture
were during taxi where the throttle was set a little higher than idle.
Sounds like that could explain why I am seeing >50 rpm increase on leaning even
hot.
Won't get to any of this stuff unless the weather here gets better though. Maybe
tomorrow.
Thanks again, all.
Barry S(2)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373902#373902
Message 7
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| Subject: | Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
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Message 8
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Barry,=0A=0ABy, "away for awhile," are you referring to jail or rehab? =C2
-Either way, glad you're back. =C2-Missed all the comments.=0A=0AThe ce
rtified EIS is totally different. =C2-Even the coil is different.=0A=0AGa
ry=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gma
il.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, May 25, 2012
2:34 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: ElectroAir=0A =0A=0AHi=0AGary:=0A
=C2-=0AI=0Adon't want you to think I left you hanging out there, I was aw
ay for a while.=0A=C2-=0AHere=0Aare pictures of the 'silver' box (aluminu
m). =C2-The=0Anewer=C2-certified=C2-units must have changed to black.
=C2- See picture # 001=0A=0A=0AAs=0AI mentioned, under the box are the tw
o adjustments. =C2-But, before you go=0Athere look at the underside of th
e box. =C2-=0AYou will notice two slots, one of=0Athe slots has a foam ru
bber insert. =C2-=0AThis inset presses up against the=0Aadjustments and i
s used to hold them from moving. =C2-See picture # 010 & 011=0A=0A=0AOn
=0ASun, May 13, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt=C2-<teamgrumman@yahoo.com>=C2
-wrote:=0ABarry,=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0AThe unit that replaces the mag is si
milar to the magnetic pickup=0Aon the cam (or crank) on cars. =C2-=0A
=A2 Just like in a car, it begins it's timing sequence at 0 BTDC.=0A
=A2 There is no adjustment inside any box. =C2-=0A=C2-=0A[Barry]=0A-
See above - These are the adjustments. =C2-They are also called out in t
he=0Amanual. See picture # 010 & 011=0A=C2-=0A=A2 There is nothing
to rub or wear out. =C2-=0A[Barry]=0A=93 Well that is dependent on
if you want to consider vibration on the adjustments.=C2-=C2-=0AAnd tha
t is why the rubber presses against=0Athe two adjustment knobs.=C2- See p
icture# 010 & 011=0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0A=A2 The only moving part is a 6
0 tooth wheel inside the unit used=0Ain place of right mag.=C2-=0A=C2-
=0AThe DIS, just like in your car, requires that the engine go=0Athrough on
e complete ignition sequence (2 revolutions) before it knows where it=0Ais.
=0A=C2-=0AThe backfiring was due to this learning curve. =C2-Following
=0Athe instructions in the install manual, there will be a toggle that turn
s the=0Aunit off and on. =C2-=0A=A2 The coil is not in that loop.
=C2-The coil stays hot.=0A=C2-Two circuit breakers. =C2-Two circuits.
=0A=A2 You will not get a backfire unless you intentionally turn of
=0Aboth left and right and then turn one or the other on.=0A=C2-=0AStarti
ng is done on both mags since they are both at 0 BTDC.=0A=C2-=0AMag drop
is tested by shutting off the Electroair with the=0Atoggle (this tests the
left mag): =C2-80 rpm drop=0A=C2-=0AElectroair turned back on. =C2-No
backfire.=0A=C2-=0ASwitch to Right Mag (this shorts the left mag and tes
ts the=0AElectroair): =C2-No noticeable drop in rpm.=0A=C2-=0A[Barry]
=0A- As stated, I have never tried starting on the EIS, since the RV6 has a
n Impulse=C2-Mag.=0A=C2- Not my plane and the owner wants to start on
=C2-Impulse=C2-so that=0Ais what I do. =C2-=0A=C2-=0AIf=0Ayou need
a copy of the OLD (I call it old because it is for the original experimenta
l=0Aversion) operations manual I have pictures. =C2-=0A=C2-=0ABarry
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Huh? =C2-How can you tell if there is any difference if you are not full
throttle? =C2-Unless you have manifold pressure, fuel flow, and an accura
te OAT, you have no way of knowing what your power setting is.=0A=0AFlat ou
t, WOT, 1000 feet, 2950 rpm, my plane's TAS is 159-160 knots.=0A=0A=0A_____
___________________________=0A From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0A
nt: Friday, May 25, 2012 4:52 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plu
gs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A =0A=0A =0AIs that full throttle at sea lev
el? =C2-I should say that my 138 knots was staying within the bounds of 7
5% power.=C2- If I did full power at 1000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 I expec
t I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2d be in the low 140s for sure.=C2- Don=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2t know how high.=0A=C2-=0ADan=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-tea
mgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@ma
tronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt=0ASent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM
=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inle
t Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A=C2-=0AN3752W: 144 knots=0AN1976T: 1
45 knots=0AN28747: 148 knots=0A=C2-=0AIf your plane is not 140 knots, som
ething is wrong. What prop are you turning?=0AGary=0ASent from my iPad=0A
=0AOn May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
=0AMe too (wish I was closer).=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll be at Oshk
osh for the AYA convention.=C2- Anyway what kind of speeds were you getti
ng pre and post Jaguar?=C2- My best speeds both pre and post are 138 knot
s.=C2- Did your other planes go from 133 to 138?=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000=C3=A2=82
=AC=84=A2 and that=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s with a 64=C3=A2=82=AC=EF
=BD pitch sensenich.=C2- Right about 9000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 DA i
s where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, not tach), again bot
h before and after the new cowl.=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-t
eamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29
PM=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List:
Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>Well, Dan,=0A>=C2-=0A
>On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. =C2-Right out o
f the hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitude
s between 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. =C2-It was also easier to
run past 2700 rpm at 8000 feet. =C2-So, I don't know what to tell you.
=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9
knots (TAS) faster. =C2-On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knot
s (TAS) faster. =C2-Both at 2700 rpm. =C2-My old cowling, however, didn
't fit well, was debonding and patched all over. =C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>I wish
you were closer. =C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>Gary=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>_______________
_________________=0A> =0A>From:Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0A>To: "
teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent:
Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plug
s for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>If IAS is meaningless, then compu
ting TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercise.=C2- I was comparing IAS of d
ensity altitude to IAS of the same density altitude.=C2- The TAS calculat
ions will work out to be the same in either case.=C2- Note that I complet
ely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground
speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formulas.=C2- The
numbers all come out to =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=85=9Cno
real change=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD.=0A>=C2-
=0A>Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude wi
ll see no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2
=9A=C2=AC=C3=82=C2um counter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests
up to 13,300=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2 with ne
w cowl so far show no changes either.=C2- Of course, the problem with my
high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2
=9A=C2=AC=C3=85=9Cfull=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2
=C2=BDengine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitu
des.=C2- I don=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2t ima
gine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) an
d running on mineral oil.=C2- So there=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC
=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2s power I=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2
=9E=C2=A2m not getting yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup aft
er breaking in and switching to normal oil?=C2- =0A>=C2-=0A>Dan Schmitz
=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>KASH=0A>=C2-=0A=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD
=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3
=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84
=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3
=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E
=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3
=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9
=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
2950 rpm (Seriously?) In an airplane (Seriously?) There's an STC for that
(Seriously?) Lycoming engine (Seriously?) And parts aren't flying out of
the engine (Seriously?)
Seriously,
Roger Rucker
AA5A '78 HWO
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, May 25, 2012 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
Huh? How can you tell if there is any difference if you are not full throt
tle? Unless you have manifold pressure, fuel flow, and an accurate OAT, yo
u have no way of knowing what your power setting is.
Flat out, WOT, 1000 feet, 2950 rpm, my plane's TAS is 159-160 knots.
From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 4:52 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
Is that full throttle at sea level? I should say that my 138 knots was sta
ying within the bounds of 75% power. If I did full power at 1000=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2 I expect I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2d be in the low 140s for
sure. Don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t know how high.
Dan
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman
-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
N3752W: 144 knots
N1976T: 145 knots
N28747: 148 knots
If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you turni
ng?
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
Me too (wish I was closer). I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll be at Oshkosh for
the AYA convention. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and po
st Jaguar? My best speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other
planes go from 133 to 138? I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve always been able t
o run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 and that=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2s with a 64=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD pitch sensenich. Right
about 9000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RP
M (strobe checked, not tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
Dan
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman
-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
Well, Dan,
On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the
hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw
een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 2
700 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster.
On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at
2700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patc
hed all over.
I wish you were closer.
Gary
From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercis
e. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. N
ote that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simp
ly used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun fo
rmulas. The numbers all come out to =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3
=85=9Cno real change=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2
=BD.
Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2
=9A=C2=AC=C3=82=C2um counter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up
to 13,300=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2 with new c
owl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high den
sity altitude tests then are they are at =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC
=C3=85=9Cfull=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD engi
ne power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I do
n=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2t imagine my engine
is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mi
neral oil. So there=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2s
power I=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2m not getting
yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switchin
g to normal oil?
Dan Schmitz
Tiger 4518B
KASH
=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4
=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2
=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2
=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8
=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2
=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B
=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I
=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
-= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -
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-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
If the idle circuit is completely blocked with debris, as you say, then the
engine is operating on the transition or main circuits. -You can complet
ely close the mixture down and still make the engine run. -That tells you
nothing. -You can even MAKE the engine idle with no flow from the idle c
ircuit. -It will run on the rest of the carb.=0A=0AThere are three fuel d
elivery circuits in a carb. -IDLE, Transition, and Main.=0A=0AIDLE: -No
fuel flow through the main venturi. -No flow through the main jet(s).
- All of the fuel flow comes from the idle circuit in the carb. -There
is no jet which changes the amount of fuel delivered. -Fuel flow is adjus
ted by the IDLE mixture screw. -The IDLE fuel delivery comes from a meter
ed slot in the carb. -=0A=0ATransition: This is nothing more than an addi
tional slot (or, sometimes, additional fuel to the IDLE slot) as the thrott
le plate opens. -As the throttle plate opens further, manifold vacuum cau
ses fuel to flow from the transition slot. -This is to cover up a lean co
ndition as the throttle plate is opened and the IDLE circuit cannot supply
enough fuel. -=0A=0AMain: -At some throttle plate position beyond trans
ition, where the main venturi begins to flow fuel, the air-fuel mixture rat
io is set by the main jet and the main venturi deliver system. -=0A=0A=
===============0AI have a customer, who shall r
emain anonymous, who insists his mixture is too rich because he gets a 200
rpm rise when leaning at 1800 rpm from full rich. -He'll go home and fuck
with the idle mixture crew after every annual. -And, every annual I have
to reset the IDLE. -=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: f
lyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASen
t: Friday, May 25, 2012 5:52 AM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Plugs
flyv35b <flyv35b@minetfiber.com>=0A=0AOn 5/24/2012 10:33 PM, Gary L Vogt wr
ote:=0A> -->- TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gary L Vogt<teamgrumman
@yahoo.com>=0A=0A> ANY throttle setting other than throttle closed at idle
and the carb will NOT be operating on the idle circuit. Any checking of rpm
rise without the throttle closed will give an artificially rich indication
since the carb is operating on the transition circuit.=0A> =0A> Gary=0A> S
ent from my iPad=0A=0AWhere is that documented?- I think the idle circuit
goes much higher than 650 rpm as I found out in the middle of Australia wh
en flying a Tiger which had the idle circuit completely blocked with debris
======================
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
OK, I won't argue with you. =C2-You just have a slow plane. =C2-{smile}
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz
@calix.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matron
ics.com> =0ASent: Friday, May 25, 2012 9:18 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-L
ist: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A =0A=0A =0ALook, if I take my
wheel pants off and motor around at 2700 RPM, my plane is going to be seve
ral knots slower.=C2- Then I reinstall my drag reducing wheel pants and 2
700 RPM gets me more speed.=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve done this, I
know it=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s true.=C2- The cowl doesn=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2t seem to have the same speed impact that wheel pants do.=C2- I
like the cowl, it has great benefits, but apparently, for me at least, crui
se speed benefits are not part of the mix.=0A=C2-=0ADan=0A=C2-=0AFrom:o
wner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-s
erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 923TE=0ASent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:45 A
M=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inl
et Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A=C2-=0ADan the only way to get good
results is at wide open throttle. You have no way of positively identifyin
g when you are at 75% power in any consistent way. So if your "flight testi
ng" was not done at wide open throttle and at the same best power setting t
hen your data has no use in a pre - post Jaguar speed comparison. Calculate
d results just don't cut it.=0A=C2-=0AWhen I change direction I fly for a
minimum of 10 minutes on that new heading before I am confident that I am
seeing a stabilized air speed. Flight testing is not really that easy to pe
rform.=0A=0AOn May 25, 2012, at 6:52 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com
> wrote:=0AIs that full throttle at sea level? =C2-I should say that my 1
38 knots was staying within the bounds of 75% power.=C2- If I did full po
wer at 1000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 I expect I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2d be
in the low 140s for sure.=C2- Don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t know how high.
=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics
.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
L Vogt=0A>Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM=0A>To: teamgrumman-list@matro
nics.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a
Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>N3752W: 144 knots=0A>N1976T: 145 knots=0A>N28747: 148 k
nots=0A>=C2-=0A>If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What
prop are you turning?=0A>Gary=0A>Sent from my iPad=0A>=0A>On May 24, 2012,
at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:=0A>Me too (wish I wa
s closer).=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conv
ention.=C2- Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jagu
ar?=C2- My best speeds both pre and post are 138 knots.=C2- Did your ot
her planes go from 133 to 138?=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve always bee
n able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 and that
=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s with a 64=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD pitch sensenich
.=C2- Right about 9000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 DA is where full throttle
equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, not tach), again both before and after the
new cowl.=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Dan=0A>>=C2-=0A>>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-se
rver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On
Behalf Of Gary Vogt=0A>>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM=0A>>To: teamgr
umman-list@matronics.com=0A>>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for
Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Well, Dan,=0A>>=C2-=0A>>On N3752W,
the only change to the plane was the cowling. =C2-Right out of the hanga
r it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes between 1
500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. =C2-It was also easier to run past 2
700 rpm at 8000 feet. =C2-So, I don't know what to tell you. =C2-=0A>>
=C2-=0A>>When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (T
AS) faster. =C2-On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) f
aster. =C2-Both at 2700 rpm. =C2-My old cowling, however, didn't fit we
ll, was debonding and patched all over. =C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A>>I wish you we
re closer. =C2-=0A>>=C2-=0A>>Gary=0A>>=C2-=0A>>=0A>>_________________
_______________=0A>> =0A>>From:Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0A>>To:
"teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0A>>Sent
: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM=0A>>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet P
lugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A>>=C2-=0A>>If IAS is meaningless, then
computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercise.=C2- I was comparing IAS
of density altitude to IAS of the same density altitude.=C2- The TAS cal
culations will work out to be the same in either case.=C2- Note that I co
mpletely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS g
round speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formulas.=C2-
The numbers all come out to =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=85
=9Cno real change=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD.=0A>>
=C2-=0A>>Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density alti
tude will see no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=83=C2=A2
=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=82=C2um counter-intuitive, but my high altitude
tests up to 13,300=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2 w
ith new cowl so far show no changes either.=C2- Of course, the problem wi
th my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2
=9A=C2=AC=C3=85=9Cfull=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF
=C2=C2=BDengine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher
altitudes.=C2- I don=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2
=A2t imagine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (m
aybe) and running on mineral oil.=C2- So there=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A
=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2s power I=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2
=9E=C2=A2m not getting yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speed
up after breaking in and switching to normal oil?=C2- =0A>>=C2-=0A>>Dan
Schmitz=0A>>Tiger 4518B=0A>>KASH=0A>>=C2-=0A>=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD=C3=AF=C2
=C2=BD=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD~=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD,=C3=AF=C2
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=C2=BD=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD=C3=9F=C2=A2{=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD
=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD=C3=AF=C2=C2=BDn=C3=AF=C2=C2=BDr=C3=AF=C2=C2=BDf
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - The TeamGrumman-List Email For
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- -
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site
-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2
====================0A=C2-=0A=C2
=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93
G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^M
=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8
=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC
=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn
=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5
-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3
=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
I ran my O320 to 3150 rpm.=0A=0AValve float starts at 3400 so stay below th
at.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: "n26390@aol.com" <n26
390@aol.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, May 25,
2012 12:44 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl
on a Tiger=0A =0A=0A2950 rpm (Seriously?)=C2- In an airplane (Seriously?)
=C2- There's an STC for that (Seriously?)=C2- Lycoming engine (Seriousl
y?)=C2- And parts aren't flying out of the engine (Seriously?)=0ASeriousl
y,=0A=0ARoger Rucker =0AAA5A '78 HWO=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AF
rom: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list <teamgrumman-
list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Fri, May 25, 2012 3:28 pm=0ASubject: Re: TeamGr
umman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger=0A=0A=0AHuh? =C2-How c
an you tell if there is any difference if you are not full throttle? =C2-
Unless you have manifold pressure, fuel flow, and an accurate OAT, you have
no way of knowing what your power setting is.=0A=0AFlat out, WOT, 1000 fee
t, 2950 rpm, my plane's TAS is 159-160 knots.=0A=0A=0A_____________________
___________=0A From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0ATo: "teamgrumman
-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0ASent: Friday, May
25, 2012 4:52 AM=0ASubject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Co
wl on a Tiger=0A=0A=0A =0AIs that full throttle at sea level? =C2-I shoul
d say that my 138 knots was staying within the bounds of 75% power.=C2- I
f I did full power at 1000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 I expect I=C3=A2=82
=AC=84=A2d be in the low 140s for sure.=C2- Don=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2t know how high.=0A=C2-=0ADan=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-teamgrumman-list-s
erver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On
Behalf Of Gary L Vogt=0ASent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM=0ATo: teamgrumm
an-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jagu
ar Cowl on a Tiger=0A=C2-=0AN3752W: 144 knots=0AN1976T: 145 knots=0AN2874
7: 148 knots=0A=C2-=0AIf your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong.
What prop are you turning?=0AGary=0ASent from my iPad=0A=0AOn May 24, 2012
, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:=0AMe too (wish I w
as closer).=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA con
vention.=C2- Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jag
uar?=C2- My best speeds both pre and post are 138 knots.=C2- Did your o
ther planes go from 133 to 138?=C2- I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve always be
en able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 and that
=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s with a 64=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD pitch sensenich
.=C2- Right about 9000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 DA is where full throttle
equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, not tach), again both before and after the
new cowl.=0A>=C2-=0A>Dan=0A>=C2-=0A>From:owner-teamgrumman-list-server
@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha
lf Of Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM=0A>To: teamgrumman-
list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar
Cowl on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>Well, Dan,=0A>=C2-=0A>On N3752W, the only c
hange to the plane was the cowling. =C2-Right out of the hangar it was 5
knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes between 1500 feet an
d 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. =C2-It was also easier to run past 2700 rpm at
8000 feet. =C2-So, I don't know what to tell you. =C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>Whe
n I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster.
=C2-On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. =C2
-Both at 2700 rpm. =C2-My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was de
bonding and patched all over. =C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>I wish you were closer.
=C2-=0A>=C2-=0A>Gary=0A>=C2-=0A>=0A>________________________________
=0A> =0A>From:Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>=0A>To: "teamgrumman-list@
matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com> =0A>Sent: Thursday, May 24,
2012 5:04 AM=0A>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl
on a Tiger=0A>=C2-=0A>If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of I
AS is a pointless exercise.=C2- I was comparing IAS of density altitude t
o IAS of the same density altitude.=C2- The TAS calculations will work ou
t to be the same in either case.=C2- Note that I completely ignored the I
AS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS ground speed in 3 direc
tions to compute a TAS using some fun formulas.=C2- The numbers all come
out to =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=85=9Cno real change=C3=83
=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD.=0A>=C2-=0A>Now, by the arg
ument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will see no speed cha
nge even as there are drag reductions=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3
=82=C2um counter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3
=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2 with new cowl so far sh
ow no changes either.=C2- Of course, the problem with my high density alt
itude tests then are they are at =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=85
=9Cfull=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BDengine power,
I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes.=C2- I don=C3
=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2t imagine my engine is d
oing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on minera
l oil.=C2- So there=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2
s power I=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2m not gettin
g yet.=C2- Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and sw
itching to normal oil?=C2- =0A>=C2-=0A>Dan Schmitz=0A>Tiger 4518B=0A>KA
SH=0A>=C2-=0A=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(
=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81
=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-
=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x
=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF
=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"
=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2
=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'=0A=0A=0Ast" target
=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0Ap://forums.
=============
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Some of the AYA air racers turn 3,000+ RPM. The engine is not the worry, it is
the PROP! Some have a tendency to throw a few inches off the tip, which is enough
to rip the engine off the mount from the imbalance.
Just one more reason I don't fly in those planes...
--Bob Steward
n26390@AOL.COM wrote:
>2950 rpm (Seriously?) In an airplane (Seriously?) There's an STC for that (Seriously?)
Lycoming engine (Seriously?) And parts aren't flying out of the engine
(Seriously?)
>Seriously,
>
>Roger Rucker
>AA5A '78 HWO
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
>To: teamgrumman-list <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Fri, May 25, 2012 3:28 pm
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
>
>Huh? How can you tell if there is any difference if you are not full throttle?
Unless you have manifold pressure, fuel flow, and an accurate OAT, you have
no way of knowing what your power setting is.
>
>
>Flat out, WOT, 1000 feet, 2950 rpm, my plane's TAS is 159-160 knots.
>
>
>From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 4:52 AM
>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
>
>Is that full throttle at sea level? I should say that my 138 knots was staying
within the bounds of 75% power. If I did full power at 1000 I expect Id be
in the low 140s for sure. Dont know how high.
>
>Dan
>
>
>
>From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt
>Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
>
>
>N3752W: 144 knots
>
>N1976T: 145 knots
>
>N28747: 148 knots
>
>
>
>If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you turning?
>
>Gary
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>
>On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
>
>Me too (wish I was closer). Ill be at Oshkosh for the AYA convention. Anyway
what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My best speeds both
pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 133 to 138? Ive
always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000 and thats with a 64 pitch
sensenich. Right about 9000 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe
checked, not tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
>
>Dan
>
>
>
>From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
>To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
>
>
>Well, Dan,
>
>
>
>On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the hangar
it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes between 1500
feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 2700 rpm at
8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
>
>
>
>When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster. On
my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2700 rpm.
My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patched all over.
>
>
>
>I wish you were closer.
>
>
>
>Gary
>
>
>
>
>From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
>Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
>
>
>
>If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exercise.
I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density altitude.
The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. Note that
I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply used GPS
ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formulas. The numbers
all come out to no real change.
>
>
>
>Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will see
no speed change even as there are drag reductionsum counter-intuitive, but my
high altitude tests up to 13,300 with new cowl so far show no changes either.
Of course, the problem with my high density altitude tests then are they are
at full engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes.
I dont imagine my engine is doing its best with a cylinder being broken in
(maybe) and running on mineral oil. So theres power Im not getting yet. Do
most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to normal
oil?
>
>
>
>Dan Schmitz
>
>Tiger 4518B
>
>KASH
>
>
>
>
>~,g(M4Gqz.'8^MD,z^1kxWhn0"X,ZIJr*'
>
>
>-= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -
>-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
>-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
>-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>-= Photoshare, and much much more:
>-
>-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>-
>-========================-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
>-
>-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
>-
>-========================-= - List Contribution Web Site -
>-= Thank you for your generous support!
>-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>-=======================
Message 15
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| Subject: | Improve fit of upper cowl |
I warned you that I had lots of questions. My next one relates to the alignment
of the upper cowl to the nose bowl and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen.
On my Tiger there are gaps where the upper cowl is between about 3/8 inch
and 5/8 inch higher than the nosebowl (at the front of the cowl) and the fuselage
at the base of the windscreen (at the rear of the cowl). The gaps are
at the bend where the upper cowl curves down from the horizontal to the vertical.
You can see what I mean in the attached photos (if I've been successful in attaching
them). The right front is ok. But the left front and both rear joints
show the gaps. It's as if the bottom edge of the upper cowl can't go down far
enough to allow it to fit tightly enough. As you can see, the cowling is cracking
at the bends.
What do I need to do to eliminate the gaps and get the upper cowl to align better
with the nosebowl and fuselage? By the way, the lower cowl seems to fit and
align well with the fuselage.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373968#373968
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_front_cowling_657.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_rear_cowling_193.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_rear_cowling_493.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_front_cowling_980.jpg
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
you'll have to send pictures. -It's impossible for the upper cowling to b
e off 5/8 inches and still close.=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0A From: bkspero <bkspero@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
=0ASent: Friday, May 25, 2012 7:17 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List: Improve
bkspero@gmail.com>=0A=0AI warned you that I had lots of questions.- My ne
xt one relates to the alignment of the upper cowl to the nose bowl and the
fuselage at the base of the windscreen.- On my Tiger there are gaps where
the upper cowl is between about 3/8 inch and 5/8 inch higher than the nose
bowl (at the front of the cowl) and the fuselage at the base of the windscr
een (at the rear of the cowl).- The gaps are at the bend where the upper
cowl curves down from the horizontal to the vertical.=0A=0AYou can see what
I mean in the attached photos (if I've been successful in attaching them).
- The right front is ok.- But the left front and both rear joints show
the gaps.- It's as if the bottom edge of the upper cowl can't go down far
enough to allow it to fit tightly enough.- As you can see, the cowling i
s cracking at the bends.=0A=0AWhat do I need to do to eliminate the gaps an
d get the upper cowl to align better with the nosebowl and fuselage?- By
the way, the lower cowl seems to fit and align well with the fuselage.=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v
iewtopic.php?p=373968#373968=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments: =0A=0Ahttp://foru
ms.matronics.com//files/right_front_cowling_657.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matroni
cs.com//files/right_rear_cowling_193.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com//fil
es/left_rear_cowling_493.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com//files/left_fron
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
Gary, I did post photos. They show up in the webmail listing so I'm not sure why
you didn't get them.
Try this link:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=90423
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:
> you'll have to send pictures. It's impossible for the upper cowling to be off
5/8 inches and still close.
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373976#373976
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
I see the pics. Was it always like that? The only real solution is to buy a Jaguar
cowling.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 25, 2012, at 7:17 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I warned you that I had lots of questions. My next one relates to the alignment
of the upper cowl to the nose bowl and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen.
On my Tiger there are gaps where the upper cowl is between about 3/8
inch and 5/8 inch higher than the nosebowl (at the front of the cowl) and the
fuselage at the base of the windscreen (at the rear of the cowl). The gaps are
at the bend where the upper cowl curves down from the horizontal to the vertical.
>
> You can see what I mean in the attached photos (if I've been successful in attaching
them). The right front is ok. But the left front and both rear joints
show the gaps. It's as if the bottom edge of the upper cowl can't go down far
enough to allow it to fit tightly enough. As you can see, the cowling is cracking
at the bends.
>
> What do I need to do to eliminate the gaps and get the upper cowl to align better
with the nosebowl and fuselage? By the way, the lower cowl seems to fit
and align well with the fuselage.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373968#373968
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_front_cowling_657.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_rear_cowling_193.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_rear_cowling_493.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_front_cowling_980.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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|
Is there any interest in a pre-fitted Jaguar cowling? I could sell the cowlings
pre-fitted using my plane as the reference. I'd have to adjust the price to
compensate for the time invested in pre fitting the cowling. I estimate the cost
of a 'ready to install' cowling to be $11,000. It would lstill need to be
sanded and painted.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
I got them. I see what your talking about. It looks like the cowling is damaged
. . . Doubler may have broken at the corners allowing the cowling to deform.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 25, 2012, at 8:40 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gary, I did post photos. They show up in the webmail listing so I'm not sure
why you didn't get them.
>
> Try this link:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=90423
>
>
> teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:
>> you'll have to send pictures. It's impossible for the upper cowling to be off
5/8 inches and still close.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373976#373976
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
If you want to maintain a constant RPM before and after drag reduction then y
our throttle would be less open in the less drag configuration. That's why y
ou must have exactly the same throttle position to have a meaningful compari
son of speeds
On May 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
> Look, if I take my wheel pants off and motor around at 2700 RPM, my plane i
s going to be several knots slower. Then I reinstall my drag reducing wheel
pants and 2700 RPM gets me more speed. I=99ve done this, I know it
=99s true. The cowl doesn=99t seem to have the same speed impact t
hat wheel pants do. I like the cowl, it has great benefits, but apparently,
for me at least, cruise speed benefits are not part of the mix.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 923TE
> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:45 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Dan the only way to get good results is at wide open throttle. You have no
way of positively identifying when you are at 75% power in any consistent w
ay. So if your "flight testing" was not done at wide open throttle and at th
e same best power setting then your data has no use in a pre - post Jaguar s
peed comparison. Calculated results just don't cut it.
>
> When I change direction I fly for a minimum of 10 minutes on that new head
ing before I am confident that I am seeing a stabilized air speed. Flight te
sting is not really that easy to perform.
>
> On May 25, 2012, at 6:52 AM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
> Is that full throttle at sea level? I should say that my 138 knots was st
aying within the bounds of 75% power. If I did full power at 1000=99 I
expect I=99d be in the low 140s for sure. Don=99t know how hig
h.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt
> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> N3752W: 144 knots
> N1976T: 145 knots
> N28747: 148 knots
>
> If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you turn
ing?
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>
> Me too (wish I was closer). I=99ll be at Oshkosh for the AYA conven
tion. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and post Jaguar? My b
est speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other planes go from 1
33 to 138? I=99ve always been able to run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000
=99 and that=99s with a 64=9D pitch sensenich. Right abou
t 9000=99 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (strobe checked, n
ot tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
>
> Dan
>
> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumma
n-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> Well, Dan,
>
> On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of the
hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes betw
een 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 27
00 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
>
> When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faster
. On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at 2
700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patche
d all over.
>
> I wish you were closer.
>
> Gary
>
> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>
> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerci
se. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alti
tude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. No
te that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simply
used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun formu
las. The numbers all come out to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93no real change=C3=A2
=82=AC=EF=BD.
>
> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will s
ee no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=A2=82=AC=C2um c
ounter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 13,300=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2 with new cowl so far show no changes either. Of course, the problem wit
h my high density altitude tests then are they are at =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93f
ull=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD engine power, I lean for highest RPM in a speed t
est at higher altitudes. I don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t imagine my engine i
s doing its best with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mine
ral oil. So there=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s power I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m
not getting yet. Do most Grummans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in a
nd switching to normal oil?
>
> Dan Schmitz
> Tiger 4518B
> KASH
>
> =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=91r=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD{(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^M=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=CB=8A=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BDK=91=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA
=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,z
=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF
=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD
> =EF=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BD
p+r=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP>-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BDvk
=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BDj+y=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
> &j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD7=EF
=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BDf=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0
=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ
=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BD8=EF=BDIa=14=EF=BDT1$=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD+y=EF=BD\=EF=BD{^=EF=BD=D6=A5=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDj)ZnW=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDayg=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BD
k&j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF
=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=EF=BD=EF=BD
*.~=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD
=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=D9=A2=EF=BD
=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
> &j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF
=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF
=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDr=EF
=BDf
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
> =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD
%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^M=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=CB=8A=EF=BDD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=16=EF
=BD=EF=BDK=1E=EF=BD=17=EF=BDj=EF=BD=EF=BD',.+-=15=E6=AD=BA
=EF=BD=EF=BD5=EF=BD=81=ABh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1B=EF=BD=EF=BD
,z=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD.+-=EF=BD=D8=A5=EF=BD=D8=9E=EF
=BD=CB=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=0B=EF=BD=EF=BDT=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BD
+=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BDp+r=18=EF=BDy'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDC=EF
=BD =E5=A1=A7{ =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,x(Z=EF=BDP=10>=1A
-=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BDvk=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BD
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=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjr=EF=BD=EF
=BD=EF=BD0=04=EF=BD8=EF=BD=02Ia=01=14=EF=BDT1$=EF=BD=EF=BD
=EF=BD+y=EF=BD\=EF=BD{^=EF=BD=D6=A5=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj)
ZnW=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDayg=EF=BD=16=EF=BD=EF=BD=C6=A1=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j=EF=BD=EF
=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD+=EF=BDk&j
=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=EF=BD
=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BDg=EF=BDJ+^N=16=EF=BD=EF=BD
*.~=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDzw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD
=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjY^.+-=01=D9=A2=EF
=BD=EF=BDky=EF=BDm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=0C&j=EF=BD
=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF=BD=EF
=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF
=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BD=7F=EF
=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{=7F=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDr=EF=BD=1Bf
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
You can definitely see cracks in the cowl at the top of the curve of each "high
point". Can you take/post pictures of the inside of the cowl?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373985#373985
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar cowling |
Ok, I know I don't carry much weight anymore since I don't have a Tiger any more
but here is my thoughts....
Having read about the "individual" nature of each Tiger coming out of the various
factories as well as having read about the different "required fitting procedures"
of each existing Jaguar cowl, I would think a "pre-fitted" cowl wouldn't
be pre-fitted except to the plane it was fitted on. Having it pre-cut to one
plane could just make it useless/ugly on a different plane.
Just my .02.
GK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373986#373986
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar cowling |
Well, in theory, the stock cowling can be interchanged between planes. Other than
fitting the engine thrust angle to match theyd all be exactly the same.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
On May 25, 2012, at 9:55 PM, "gketell" <greg@ketell.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, I know I don't carry much weight anymore since I don't have a Tiger any more
but here is my thoughts....
>
> Having read about the "individual" nature of each Tiger coming out of the various
factories as well as having read about the different "required fitting procedures"
of each existing Jaguar cowl, I would think a "pre-fitted" cowl wouldn't
be pre-fitted except to the plane it was fitted on. Having it pre-cut to
one plane could just make it useless/ugly on a different plane.
>
> Just my .02.
> GK
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373986#373986
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar cowling |
While reworking my Jaguar cowl I used a firewall from a 70's model Tiger/Cheetah.
I then took the cowl from my garage to my hanger and put it on my 2000's Tiger
with a perfect fit and all the factory screw holes matched exactly. The only
difference particular to my Tiger was length needed increased. Probably mostly
because of the MT spinner being shorter than the factory spinner
The biggest variable might be the seemingly unrepeatability of the factory cowls
alignment. If they were all still as they left the factory in the 70's then
pre fitting should work fine
On May 26, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Well, in theory, the stock cowling can be interchanged between planes. Other
than fitting the engine thrust angle to match theyd all be exactly the same.
>
> Gary
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 25, 2012, at 9:55 PM, "gketell" <greg@ketell.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ok, I know I don't carry much weight anymore since I don't have a Tiger any
more but here is my thoughts....
>>
>> Having read about the "individual" nature of each Tiger coming out of the various
factories as well as having read about the different "required fitting procedures"
of each existing Jaguar cowl, I would think a "pre-fitted" cowl wouldn't
be pre-fitted except to the plane it was fitted on. Having it pre-cut to
one plane could just make it useless/ugly on a different plane.
>>
>> Just my .02.
>> GK
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373986#373986
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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