Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:28 AM - Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger (923TE)
2. 10:46 AM - Jaguar cowling (Gary Vogt)
3. 12:48 PM - Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal (bkspero)
4. 03:46 PM - Jaguar Speeds (brian sandberg)
5. 04:39 PM - Re: Jaguar cowling (923te)
6. 06:55 PM - Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (bkspero)
7. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (Gary Vogt)
8. 10:31 PM - Re: Improve fit of upper cowl (gketell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger |
Some of the Benefits of the MT prop when racing are: it's certified for 225 H
P at 2800 rpm and 300 HP at 2700 RPM it has a smaller diameter than the fixe
d pitch Tiger prop so tip speeds are slower and it causes less fuel burn for
a given speed than the fixed pitch prop. Since its blade weighs less than t
he metal blade a broken tip would have less affect and perhaps not be the di
saster a metal tip break
On May 25, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Bob Steward <n76lima@mindspring.com> wrote:
m>
>
> Some of the AYA air racers turn 3,000+ RPM. The engine is not the worry, i
t is the PROP! Some have a tendency to throw a few inches off the tip, whic
h is enough to rip the engine off the mount from the imbalance.
> Just one more reason I don't fly in those planes...
> --Bob Steward
>
>
> n26390@AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> 2950 rpm (Seriously?) In an airplane (Seriously?) There's an STC for th
at (Seriously?) Lycoming engine (Seriously?) And parts aren't flying out o
f the engine (Seriously?)
>> Seriously,
>>
>> Roger Rucker
>> AA5A '78 HWO
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
>> To: teamgrumman-list <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Fri, May 25, 2012 3:28 pm
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>>
>>
>> Huh? How can you tell if there is any difference if you are not full thr
ottle? Unless you have manifold pressure, fuel flow, and an accurate OAT, y
ou have no way of knowing what your power setting is.
>>
>>
>> Flat out, WOT, 1000 feet, 2950 rpm, my plane's TAS is 159-160 knots.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 4:52 AM
>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is that full throttle at sea level? I should say that my 138 knots was s
taying within the bounds of 75% power. If I did full power at 1000=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2 I expect I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2d be in the low 140s for s
ure. Don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t know how high.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt
>> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 1:46 AM
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>>
>>
>> N3752W: 144 knots
>>
>> N1976T: 145 knots
>>
>> N28747: 148 knots
>>
>>
>>
>> If your plane is not 140 knots, something is wrong. What prop are you tur
ning?
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2012, at 1:10 PM, Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Me too (wish I was closer). I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ll be at Oshkosh fo
r the AYA convention. Anyway what kind of speeds were you getting pre and p
ost Jaguar? My best speeds both pre and post are 138 knots. Did your other
planes go from 133 to 138? I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve always been able to
run a bit over 2700 RPM at 8000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 and that=C3=A2=82
=AC=84=A2s with a 64=C3=A2=82=AC=EF=BD pitch sensenich. Right abou
t 9000=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 DA is where full throttle equals 2700 RPM (st
robe checked, not tach), again both before and after the new cowl.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumm
an-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 1:29 PM
>> To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, Dan,
>>
>>
>>
>> On N3752W, the only change to the plane was the cowling. Right out of th
e hangar it was 5 knots (TAS) faster than the stock cowling at altitudes bet
ween 1500 feet and 5500 feet and 2700 rpm. It was also easier to run past 2
700 rpm at 8000 feet. So, I don't know what to tell you.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I installed the very first one on N119ST, it was 9 knots (TAS) faste
r. On my plane with a 65-63-61 prop, it was 10 knots (TAS) faster. Both at
2700 rpm. My old cowling, however, didn't fit well, was debonding and patc
hed all over.
>>
>>
>>
>> I wish you were closer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Dan Schmitz <Dan.Schmitz@calix.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:04 AM
>> Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Inlet Plugs for Jaguar Cowl on a Tiger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If IAS is meaningless, then computing TAS off of IAS is a pointless exerc
ise. I was comparing IAS of density altitude to IAS of the same density alt
itude. The TAS calculations will work out to be the same in either case. N
ote that I completely ignored the IAS in a number of test runs where I simpl
y used GPS ground speed in 3 directions to compute a TAS using some fun form
ulas. The numbers all come out to =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=85
=9Cno real change=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, by the argument that a prop turning X RPM at Y density altitude will
see no speed change even as there are drag reductions=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2
=9A=C2=AC=C3=82=C2um counter-intuitive, but my high altitude tests up to 1
3,300=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2 with new cowl so
far show no changes either. Of course, the problem with my high density al
titude tests then are they are at =C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=85
=9Cfull=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=AF=C2=C2=BD engine power, I
lean for highest RPM in a speed test at higher altitudes. I don=C3=83=C2=A2
=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2t imagine my engine is doing its b
est with a cylinder being broken in (maybe) and running on mineral oil. So t
here=C3=83=C2=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2s power I=C3=83=C2
=A2=C3=A2=9A=C2=AC=C3=A2=9E=C2=A2m not getting yet. Do most Gru
mmans see a 5 knot speedup after breaking in and switching to normal oil?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan Schmitz
>>
>> Tiger 4518B
>>
>> KASH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93
M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2
=AB8^M=C3=C2=C2=BB=C2=84=A2=C2=A9=C3=8B=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2
=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC
=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2
=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2
=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=AC
r=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -= - The TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -
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Message 2
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OK, I'm attempting to buy/trade for a fuselage so that I can pre-fit the co
wlings. -Here's why.=0A=0AI sold a cowling to a Tiger owner who is having
someone else install the cowling. -I got an email from the installer say
ing the cowling is 1/2 inch too wide and that he's going to change the jogg
le down the centerline to fix the problem.=0A=0AFirst: -there is no way t
he cowling can be wider. -All of the cowlings come out of the same toolin
g. -=0ASecond: he's measuring it on the floor.=0AThird: on the floor, thi
s doesn't take into consideration the nose strut fairing has nothing to hol
d a dimension at the open end.=0AFourth: he can't just arbitrarily change t
he location of the joggle without affecting the entire installation.=0AFift
h: if he'd follow the instructions . . . duh . . . -there is no step that
says to measure the cowling on the floor.=0A=0AThis guy is destroying a co
wling and the guy who bought it will be the one who is to suffer.=0A=0AI th
ought (my mistake, I know) that it is time consuming to install, but that t
he installation instructions covered everything. -I forgot to include the
intelligence of the installer. -=0A=0AI'm not saying what I'm really thi
nking. -I'm really pissed off.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Plugs leading up worse than normal |
Both runup roughness and idle mixture questions are resolved. Each mag runs smoothly
during runup when done leaned. Did 3 checks today and all were good.
Mixture test done a idle produced only 30-50 rpm increase as I slowly pulled the
mixture to idle cut-off with a warm engine at near sea level. Checked twice
with same result.
Thanks all for your help.
Barry S(2)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374016#374016
Message 4
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>N3752W: 144 knots
>
>N1976T: 145 knots
>
>N28747: 148 knots
N119ST: 151 KTAS down low=2C wide open and leaned for power. It was over r
edline and gulping fuel=2C but an interesting data point. Efficient operat
ions are more my style=2C and for a given rpm I am reliablly 5 to 10 KTAS b
etter than book speed with about 0.5 gph less fuel burn. That's at all alt
itudes=2C temperatures and various weights in smooth air over 2 years of ob
servation. With my old beat up cowl and PowerFlow I was lucky to see close
to book values. Wish I could nail down a single number of speed increase
for you=2C but as Gary has said there are just too many variables.
-Brian
N119ST @ 2W6
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jaguar cowling |
Hmmm
What I can say is that it took a year for me to lengthen the cowl. I'm flyin
g it now but it isn't finished. If the owner is on this list he should take h
ead. It would be far less expensive to pay to fly Gary and his better half h
elper out, buy his room and board and let him restart the install.
No kidding
On May 26, 2012, at 12:46 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> OK, I'm attempting to buy/trade for a fuselage so that I can pre-fit the c
owlings. Here's why.
>
> I sold a cowling to a Tiger owner who is having someone else install the c
owling. I got an email from the installer saying the cowling is 1/2 inch to
o wide and that he's going to change the joggle down the centerline to fix t
he problem.
>
> First: there is no way the cowling can be wider. All of the cowlings com
e out of the same tooling.
> Second: he's measuring it on the floor.
> Third: on the floor, this doesn't take into consideration the nose strut f
airing has nothing to hold a dimension at the open end.
> Fourth: he can't just arbitrarily change the location of the joggle withou
t affecting the entire installation.
> Fifth: if he'd follow the instructions . . . duh . . . there is no step t
hat says to measure the cowling on the floor.
>
> This guy is destroying a cowling and the guy who bought it will be the one
who is to suffer.
>
> I thought (my mistake, I know) that it is time consuming to install, but t
hat the installation instructions covered everything. I forgot to include t
he intelligence of the installer.
>
> I'm not saying what I'm really thinking. I'm really pissed off.
>
>
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>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
gketell wrote:
> You can definitely see cracks in the cowl at the top of the curve of each "high
point". Can you take/post pictures of the inside of the cowl?
Here is a pretty full set of photos both inside and outside. Two more, from the
front looking at the nosebowl thru the propellor were poorly focused and I have
to retake them.
Do these indicate anything. I do see the delamination inside at the corners.
Seems to me more like the result of the mis-fit than the cause. The upper cowl
halves just seem to long, or the lower cowl seems set to high (although it lines
up pretty well with the fuselage).
Barry S(2)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374030#374030
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_150.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_right_side_vertical_cowl_seam_101.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_internal_right_159.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_internal_left_142.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_external_from_right_135.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_external_from_left_156.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_left_side_vertical_cowl_seam_233.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_inside_right_cowl_closeup_904.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_inside_right_cowl_closeup_2_252.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_inside_left_rear_closeup_137.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_117.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_right_side_vertical_cowl_seam_and_nosebowl_205.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_internal_right_198.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_internal_left_635.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_external_from_right_676.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_external_from_left_142.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_left_side_vertical_cowl_seam_and_nosebowl_356.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_inside_right_cowl_211.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_inside_right_cowl_closeup_186.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_inside_left_cowl_closeup_206.jpg
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
Barry, if you had wanted a near perfect plane, you missed your opportunity.
-The original cowling is built to the nearest .3 inches. -Yours looks
fine to me.=0A=0APic 150: -Looks normal to me.=0APic 101: -Looks normal
to me.=0APic 159: -Other than the hinge . . . -I mount the hinge like
this left to right: hinge, mounting bracket, hinge, mounting bracket, hinge
.=0A- - - - - - - - -I open the hinge and have it straddl
e the two mounting brackets.=0APic 142: -see comment for 159=0APic 135:
-You can crowd the hinge aft and redrill. -It will pull the the nose bo
wl aft however.=0APic 156: -No comment=0APic 233: -Seem is typical.=0AP
ic 904/252: -The missing sections of the doubler are so the cowling can b
end in the corner.=0APic 186: -Looks like the doubler is debonding=0ARest
of pics: -Pretty typical of all the planes I see.=0A=0ABarry, go find so
me other Cheetahs/Tigers. -You'll see they are all the same. -=0A=0AThe
only fix is a new cowling.=0AGary=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________
______=0A From: bkspero <bkspero@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronic
s.com =0ASent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:54 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman-List:
"bkspero" <bkspero@gmail.com>=0A=0A=0Agketell wrote:=0A> You can definitel
y see cracks in the cowl at the top of the curve of each "high point".- C
an you take/post pictures of the inside of the cowl?=0A=0A=0AHere is a pret
ty full set of photos both inside and outside.- Two more, from the front
looking at the nosebowl thru the propellor were poorly focused and I have t
o retake them.=0A=0ADo these indicate anything.- I do see the delaminatio
n inside at the corners.- Seems to me more like the result of the mis-fit
than the cause.- The upper cowl halves just seem to long, or the lower c
owl seems set to high (although it lines up pretty well with the fuselage).
=0A=0ABarry S(2)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://for
ums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374030#374030=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAttachments
: =0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com//files/right_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_
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nics.com//files/front_right_side_vertical_cowl_seam_and_nosebowl_205.jpg=0A
http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_internal_right_198
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t_left_side_vertical_cowl_seam_and_nosebowl_356.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matroni
cs.com//files/front_inside_right_cowl_211.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com
//files/front_inside_right_cowl_closeup_186.jpg=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.c
=============
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Improve fit of upper cowl |
The "Rear inside right" pictures shows obvious signs of debonding of the doubler.
The "Rear inside left" pictures show hints that the doubler might be debonding
(cracking paint around the doubler).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374033#374033
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