Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:55 AM - Cowling size (Gary Vogt)
2. 11:57 AM - What's new (Gary Vogt)
3. 12:07 PM - Question (Gary Vogt)
4. 02:12 PM - Re: Question (FLYaDIVE)
5. 07:57 PM - Re: Question (Gary Vogt)
6. 08:36 PM - AG5B upper cowling (Gary Vogt)
7. 08:59 PM - Grumman airfoil (Gary Vogt)
8. 09:54 PM - Re: Question (n76lima@mindspring.com)
9. 10:19 PM - Re: Grumman airfoil (n76lima@mindspring.com)
Message 1
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A while back, I mentions that Brooks-"I grew up with a 4 foot Starrett ru
ler in my hand"-Margolien had said the Jaguar cowling was too wide and th
at he was 'trimming' them to fit. -Over the weekend I had the opportunity
to compare an AG5B cowling to a Jaguar cowling. -You can see from the pi
cs they are EXACTLY the same size. -Not almost, but exactly.=0A=0AI had t
hought about moving the joggle on the cowling to make it narrower after Bro
oks said my cowling was 1/4 inch wider than the aluminum cowling and that h
e had to make them fit. -I think I'll leave the Jaguar cowling alone.
Message 2
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Last week, Bruce asked if I had any stories. -Just one.=0A=0AI did an ann
ual on a Tiger a couple of weeks ago. -Someone had RTVd the intake duct t
o the engine mount. -Now, you may not know this, but, RTV will cause rust
anywhere it touches steel, paint or no paint. -=0A=0APlease keep it off
the engine mount.-
Message 3
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Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge a
bout electronics than most. =C2-If anyone else knows the answer, be answe
r also.=0A=0AI was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installe
d on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. =C2-Both of them w
ould have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. =C2
-That would make the mag checks a little simpler. =C2-=0A=0AAnd, then t
he trusty Avionics Master. =C2-I think making a single point failure in a
plane is stupid, but, what do I know. =C2-=0A=0ASo, I got to thinking (h
ere we go again), on a cars ignition switch,=C2-=0A=0A=A2 the first
position turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A
=A2 the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electri
cal system.=0A=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the
start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A
=0AMy questions are:=0A=0A(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the
mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
=0A=0AThat would simplify the entire process.=0A=0A(Q2) Is there a switch t
hat would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
Message 4
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Hello Gary:
That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag
(Electronic Ignition)
Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on and
off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved hand).
These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for mounting
and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact
ability.
I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
As well as having Silver Contacts.
I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground and
turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to
convert to a planes requirements?"
I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON-
Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same
switch, is that correct?
Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a
ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have
all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our
brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different
than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you. It
would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would you
want it Key Activated?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge
> about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer
> also.
>
> I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both
> Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have
> benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would
> make the mag checks a little simpler.
>
> And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point
> failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
>
> So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
>
> - the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
> - the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the
> electrical system.
> - the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are
> dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
>
> My questions are:
>
> (Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition
> switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
>
> That would simplify the entire process.
>
> (Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a plane
s
> requirements?
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 5
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Barry,=C2-=0A=0ALet me write it out again. =C2-Maybe you read it so fas
t the first time that you missed the details.=0A=0A=A2 the first posi
tion turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A=A2 th
e second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical sy
stem.=0A=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the start
, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A=0AThe
mags do not need to be a part of the switch. =C2-The mags would then be
just two separate toggles.=0A=0AJust as in a car, the radios can come on wi
th the first position. =C2-Alternator with the second. =C2-So, you can
turn on the radios just like you would with a split master without turning
on the whole system. =C2-If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'
ll look for that. =C2-It needs to be keyed. =C2-The key, then, is requi
red to turn on the radio. =C2-Just like your car.=0A=0AGary=0APS, the ALT
side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power to the field c
ircuit. =C2-In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the first d
etent; =C2-i.e., radios. =C2-If you wanted to change the emergency proc
edure, just pull the field breaker. =C2-=0A=0A=0A________________________
________=0A From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matr
onics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman
-List: Question=0A =0A=0AHello Gary:=0A=0AThat is=C2-exactly=C2-what I
fly in the RV6. =C2-=0AToggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle
R Mag (Electronic=C2-Ignition)=0ANow, I went a little out there with the
switches. =C2-=0AI used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switc
hes.=0AHeavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned
on and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved
hand). =C2-=0AThese are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" h
ole for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.=0AThe D
P so there is a huge amount of internal=C2-redundancy=C2-in the contact
ability.=C2-=0AI just tied each of the sides of the switch=C2-together
.=0AAs well as having Silver Contacts.=0AI know, way over kill, since all t
hey do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. =C2-And r
ubber boots are also=C2-available.=0ALots of advantages - And SIMPLE.=0A
=0AYour question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to
convert to a planes requirements?"=0AI gather that you want it just like a
cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? =C2-But you are
NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correct?=0AThen
what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a ALT fa
ilure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?=0AThe next
thing that comes to mind is ALL the=C2-Repetitive=C2-Training we have a
ll gone through over the years. =C2-We have=C2-certain=C2-things infu
sed into our brains. =C2-The pilots would have to relearn things that are
a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a muscle=C2-res
ponse. =C2-=0A=0AIf you interested in this type of switch I will search o
ne out for you. =C2-It would more than likely be a=C2-ROTARY=C2-switc
h with an=C2-enclosure. =C2-Would you want it Key=C2-Activated?=0A=0A
=0ABarry=0A=0A=0A=C2-=C2-=0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary
Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0ABarry, this one is for you because
you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. =C2-
If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.=0A>=0A>=0A>I was thinking
about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's
planes a few months back. =C2-Both of them would have benefitted from ha
ving separate toggle switches for each mag. =C2-That would make the mag c
hecks a little simpler. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>And, then the trusty Avionics Mas
ter. =C2-I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but,
what do I know. =C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>So, I got to thinking (here we go again)
, on a cars ignition switch,=C2-=0A>=0A>=0A>=A2 the first position
turns on the battery. =C2-( listen to the radio etc.)=0A>=A2 the se
cond position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system
.=0A>=A2 the third position starts the car. =C2-During the start, t
he radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.=0A>=0A>=0A>
My questions are:=0A>=0A>=0A>(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for
the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition swit
ch?=0A>=0A>=0A>That would simplify the entire process.=0A>=0A>=0A>(Q2) Is t
here a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requireme
nts?=0A>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumma
n-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contr
=======================
Message 6
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| Subject: | AG5B upper cowling |
I have two AG5B upper cowlings.=0A=0AOne was a prototype and is made of fib
erglass. -The other is a production carbon fiber part.=0A=0AIf you need o
ne or want one as a spare, I'll sell both for $1000 or any reasonable offer
. -=0A=0AGary
Message 7
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Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won
't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimension
s of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. -Goi
ng on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a
drawing to match it as close as possible. -=0A=0AThe original AA1 airfoil
is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415. -Using that same a
irfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel to the "0" wate
rline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just say, it's
an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.=0A=0A=0AThen, adding
the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new airfoil.
-It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. -So, I algebrai
cally added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided b
y 2. -In theory, a 64-413.5. -This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman
airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar.
-However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
=0A=0AThat's why I wanted some good locations. -I still need them if you
have the time and patience.=0A=0AFrom the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil
actually a pretty decent airfoil. -Much thinner than the -415 and a longe
r upper surface with a nice gentle curve. -The -415 has a rather steep cu
rve past the 40% chord peak. -=0A=0AComparing it to a Clark-Y one needs t
o begin making assumptions on installed incident angles and the fact that t
he -Y is flatter on the bottom.=0A=0AInteresting. -=0A=0AFeedback appreci
ated.
Message 8
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Yeah, no reason that can't work. At least on an experimental. Bet you have trouble
getting the FAA to approve an antique GM ignition switch.
And the key on the Master, Alternator and Starter isn't as effective at theft prevention
as on the mags.
One could flip the mag switches on and hand prop it, fly away with a handheld radio.
Granted, one could open the cowl and pop the P-leads and then flip the Master on
and hit the Start button on a Grumman...
--Bob Steward
the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.) the second
position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system. the
third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line
to prevent damage to the radios.
The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be just two
separate toggles.
Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. Alternator with
the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like you would with a split
master without turning on the
whole system. If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that.
It needs to be keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just
like your car.
Gary
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
You don't mention changing the radius of the leading edge on the AA-1A and later
airfoil in your description of your efforts to lay out the unique Grumman airfoil.
It seems quite a bit larger radius than the AA-1 nee 64-415 airfoil.
Harry Riblett did some work on the NACA data and found issues with a wave or ripple
in the upper surface based on the published tables. This inconsistency causes
flow disruptions (loss of laminar flow earlier than expected and other issues
with Stall and the Hysteresis loop of air attachment after stall. The first
paragraph of this paper gives a brief description of what aerodynamic hysteresis
is and what it does.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~huhui/paper/2008/AIAA-2008-0315.pdf
It is a near certainty that the AA-1 airfoil has that same inconsistency, and since
the AA-1A was done "on the hangar floor" from the AA-1 profiles, it seems
likely that it has the same issues that the donor airfoil had. Harry's book
"GA Airfoils" is very interesting reading for those that are wanting to understand
airfoil design. Highly recommended.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/bvpages/ga_airfoils.php
Gary, you got access to one of the CFD programs to "blow" on your reconstructed
airfoil? There are a number of questions that need to be answered, mostly revolving
around the slope of the forward camber and how it feeds into the large
radius nose.
This paper is offered for those that don't know what we are talking about, and
how Eppler and CFD have changed the entire concept of airfoil design from carving
models and blowing on them, to designing the flow and pressure distribution
you want, and then calculating the shape that would MAKE that happen.
http://www.airfoils.com/design.pdf
--Bob Steward
[Gary] Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that
won't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions
of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on
the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing
to match it as close as possible.
The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just
say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter
than a 64-412. So, I algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412
airfoils and divided by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn
close to the Grumman airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose
to the spar. However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something
similar.
That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the time
and patience.
>From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil. Much
thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed incident
angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
Interesting.
Feedback appreciated.
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