Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:09 AM - Re: Grumman airfoil (Bruce Smith)
2. 05:47 AM - Re: Grumman airfoil (FLYaDIVE)
3. 06:01 AM - Re: Question (FLYaDIVE)
4. 06:07 AM - Re: Grumman airfoil (Bob Steward)
5. 06:30 AM - Waterline (Bruce Smith)
6. 08:46 AM - Gary - Barry :: Switches (FLYaDIVE)
7. 08:14 PM - AA5 Vortex Generators (Andrew Kuzyk)
8. 09:44 PM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFRlYW1HcnVtbWFuLUxpc3Q6IEFHNUIgdXBwZXIgY293bGluZw==? (=?utf-8?B?bjJfbmFyY29zaXNAeWFob28uY29t?=)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
Gary,
Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... determine or make up the
waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boats, but not airplanes.
Thanks and Happy 4th to all.
Bruce
On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won't
let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions of
several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on the
premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing to match
it as close as possible.
>
> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's just
say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
>
> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I algebraically
added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided by
2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman airfoil
with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar. However, the
spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
>
> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the time
and patience.
>
> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil.
Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>
> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed
incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
Bruce:
Waterline is the same thing as Cord. The imaginary straight-line from the
Leading Edge Tip (Bulge) to the Training Edge Tip or Aerilon Training Edge
when in a neutral position.
I do not know how waterline came into play with planes, though may of the
terms for aviation came from sailing and the sea. In this case I would
guess it has more to do with the Egyptians and the building of things like
the Pyramids. There is a tool know as an Egyptian Water Level. Today it
would be made out of a flexible clear plastic tube, filled almost to the
top with water (at each end). Since water seeks its own level - You could
put the water level at the wings leading edge - Then move the other end of
the tube up and down (water level) to measure the location of the wings
training edge. Sight from water level (waterline) to water level
(waterline) and you have the Cord a.k.a. Waterline. Water levels are
pretty cool, they can be used to set heights/elevations over long distances
and around corners - Especially in areas where you can not run a straight
line, like finding Center-line from Firewall to Tailcone.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com> wrote:
> Gary,
>
> Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... determine or make
> up the waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boats, but not
> airplanes.
>
> Thanks and Happy 4th to all.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that
> won't let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the
> dimensions of several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman
> airfoil. Going on the premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil,
> I laid out a drawing to match it as close as possible.
>
> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a
> 64-415. Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose
> was parallel to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar,
> well, let's just say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a
> 64-415.
>
> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely
> new airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I
> algebraically added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and
> divided by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the
> Grumman airfoil with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the
> spar. However, the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something
> similar.
>
> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have
> the time and patience.
>
> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent
> airfoil. Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice
> gentle curve. The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>
> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on
> installed incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>
> Interesting.
>
> Feedback appreciated.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
Message 3
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AHhhhhh OK Gary:
I did have the sequence out of order. Your sequence:
OFF
Radio ON
Your notes did not mention Master but I guess that would be next - Master O
N
ALT ON
START - Radios OFF - Would you want to turn ALT OFF during START?
Then a SPRING RETURN just like a car back to ON for Radios - Master & ALT
all ON.
Yes, it could be done. Finding a quality switch to do the job will
be difficult BUT! I'll look.
Gary, did you want to use a relay for the Radio operation?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Barry,
>
> Let me write it out again. Maybe you read it so fast the first time that
> you missed the details.
>
> - the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
> - the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the
> electrical system.
> - the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are
> dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
>
> The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be
> just two separate toggles.
>
> Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position.
> Alternator with the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like yo
u
> would with a split master without turning on the whole system. If an old
> GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. It needs to be
> keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just like your
> car.
>
> Gary
> PS, the ALT side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power t
o
> the field circuit. In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the
> first detent; i.e., radios. If you wanted to change the emergency
> procedure, just pull the field breaker.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question
>
> Hello Gary:
>
> That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
> Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag
> (Electronic Ignition)
> Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
> I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
> Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on
> and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved
> hand).
> These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for
> mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
> The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact
> ability.
> I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
> As well as having Silver Contacts.
> I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground
> and turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
> Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
>
> Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to
> convert to a planes requirements?"
> I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON
-
> Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the sa
me
> switch, is that correct?
> Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a
> ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
> The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have
> all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our
> brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different
> than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
>
> If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you.
> It would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would y
ou
> want it Key Activated?
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge
> about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer
> also.
>
> I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both
> Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have
> benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would
> make the mag checks a little simpler.
>
> And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point
> failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
>
> So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
>
> - the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
> - the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the
> electrical system.
> - the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are
> dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
>
> My questions are:
>
> (Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition
> switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
>
> That would simplify the entire process.
>
> (Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a plane
s
> requirements?
>
> *
>
> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Grumman airfoil |
Waterline is one of the 3 geometric planes used to define a location on the aircraft.
It is just what you are imagining from your experience with boats... it
is the horizontal plane (parallel to the canopy rails and the ground) that would
appear if the aircraft were partially submerged in water. It is typically
abbreviated "WL" on drawings.
The other 2 planes are Station, the vertical plane parallel to the firewall, which
could be compared to slicing bread, abbreviated "Sta.", and Butt Line, which
is the vertical plane that slices the aircraft fore and aft parallel to the
centerline. There are Right and Left Butt Lines, referencing whether they are
right or left of the centerline, also known as B.L. 0.0, on drawings.
By defining the Station, Water Line, and Butt Line, one can pinpoint any point
on or around the aircraft.
You call the "Station", the "Arm" in your W&B calculations. The Station zero is
a point in space 50.0 inches in front of the firewall, ahead of the spinner.
This allows all stations to be positive (making all calculations positive).
You can see the various Stations and Water Lines in the Structural Repairs section
of the Maintenance Manual.
The other measurement you may commonly see in aircraft construction and repair,
is AC, or "along contour", used to define something that you can easily see and
measure with a ruler, but would devilishly difficult to calculate the Sta.
WL, and BL, due to the curve of the surface in question. Perhaps the top surface
of the wing or a measurement on the cowling.
--Bob Steward
Birmingham, AL
Bruce Smith <haveblue1@mac.com> wrote:
>Gary,
>
>Just curious. What points on a Grumman... say AA-5 .... determine or make up the
waterline? I understand waterline as it applies to boats, but not airplanes.
>
>Thanks and Happy 4th to all.
>
>Bruce
>
>
>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:59 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
>
>> Under the heading of way too much time on my hands and a curiosity that won't
let me leave this topic alone, I've been converting to CAD the dimensions of
several NACA airfoils and matching them to the Grumman airfoil. Going on the
premiss that the original AA1 had a 64-415 airfoil, I laid out a drawing to match
it as close as possible.
>>
>> The original AA1 airfoil is close to the 64-415, but it isn't really a 64-415.
Using that same airfoil, and drooping the nose so that the nose was parallel
to the "0" waterline and then extending that line to the spar, well, let's
just say, it's an interesting airfoil, but nothing close to a 64-415.
>>
>> Then, adding the flaps and ailerons from a Tiger and you have a completely new
airfoil. It's skinnier than a 64-415 and fatter than a 64-412. So, I algebraically
added the points of both the 64-415 and 64-412 airfoils and divided
by 2. In theory, a 64-413.5. This airfoil is damn close to the Grumman airfoil
with the exception of the flat bottom from the nose to the spar. However,
the spar location makes it a 63.5-413.5 or something similar.
>>
>> That's why I wanted some good locations. I still need them if you have the
time and patience.
>>
>> From the looks of it, the Grumman airfoil actually a pretty decent airfoil.
Much thinner than the -415 and a longer upper surface with a nice gentle curve.
The -415 has a rather steep curve past the 40% chord peak.
>>
>> Comparing it to a Clark-Y one needs to begin making assumptions on installed
incident angles and the fact that the -Y is flatter on the bottom.
>>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Feedback appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 5
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Thanks to Barry and Bob, and anyone else who may add more to the thread on information
about the waterline.
Bruce
Message 6
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| Subject: | Gary - Barry :: Switches |
Gary:
Here are a few switches that may do the job:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/ignition-lock-cylinder-and-keys-assembly/p2024816.jcwx
http://www.jcwhitney.com/omix-oe-replacement-ignition-lock-cylinder/p3064258.jcwx
NOW - This one sure looks possible:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/ignition-starter-switch/p2019019.jcwx
Barry
Message 7
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| Subject: | AA5 Vortex Generators |
Has anyone looked into Vortex Generators for slow flight. How much do
they reduce the cruise speed?
Andrew
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Message 8
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