Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:25 AM - Re: FAA/DERs (Kevin)
2. 09:03 AM - Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/03/12 (goldpilot@aol.com)
3. 12:28 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Buddy Cox)
4. 12:33 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Dj Merrill)
5. 01:26 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Kevin)
6. 01:26 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Gary Vogt)
7. 02:01 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Buddy Cox)
8. 08:59 PM - Wing in ground effect Hovercraft uh 18spw Hoverwing (Gary L Vogt)
9. 09:00 PM - The homemade flying hovercraft (Gary L Vogt)
10. 09:26 PM - Airfish WIG craft (Gary L Vogt)
11. 09:56 PM - DH Mosquito First Flight Sept 29 2012 Ardmore NZ.wmv (Gary L Vogt)
12. 09:59 PM - The Mosquito Flys - KA114 first flights (Gary L Vogt)
Message 1
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And people wonder why so few people fly anymore. It seems many of the faa processes
are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer works. I don't
believe that the original intent of the rules was to prevent any changes to a
certified bird, but that is what has happened by the design of the system that
we must work with. There is a strangle hold on innovation and progress. Aviation
is almost frozen in time and the light at the end of the tunnel is fading.
Simple changes or even more major changes should not take so much time and
expense as is currently required. One should not have to reinvent the wheel
for every change. Why not allow a certified category for those who wish to continue
to conform to the type cert., and a hybrid experimental for those who
wish to deviate from the stock configuration. I'm not suggesting that no testing
be done, but rather that if one can reasonably prove the change works then
it would be allowed as is done in the homebuilt category. Also one standard
applied equally throughout the system would be nice as well. Enough with things
being interpreted one way here and another at each of the various offices.
For non commercial opps the system is unrealistic. I'm glad that there are at
least a few folks left who have the patience to keep trying to make progress.
Thanks for your efforts.
Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Where do I vent?
>
>I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No responses in
5 months.
>
>I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in 4 months.
>
>I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you believe
I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached to the instrument
panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as the plastic. The
PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th revision. For a simple
flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval
to make it for a certified airplane.
>
>Gary
>Sent from my iPad
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/03/12 |
Do you think AOPA might care? Maybe one of their hot-shot editors? Maybe
they can do something for the little guy instead of catering to
$1,000,000,000 dollar aircraft manufacturers. Airplanes so far out of our
reach that it's easier to go to the moon.
Don't forget, the government is out to get rid of us little airplane guys.
We are a threat to the security of the United States. Just like gun owners.
David
Fly low, fly fast, turn left!
-----Original message-----
From: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 4, 2012 07:20:08 GMT+00:00
Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/03/12
*
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TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive
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Total Messages Posted Sat 11/03/12: 3
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 10:31 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt
Dralle)
1. 09:44 PM - Bat 21 (Gary L Vogt)
2. 09:59 PM - FAA/DERs (Gary L Vogt)
________________________________ Message 0
_____________________________________
Time: 10:31:53 AM PST US
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists
Dear Listers,
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________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 09:44:22 PM PST US
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Bat 21
From: Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Anne Marie,
I had just told Mike about Bat 21. It's on KTVXH here in Auburn.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 09:59:52 PM PST US
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs
From: Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
Where do I vent?
I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No responses
in
5 months.
I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in 4
months.
I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you
believe
I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached to the
instrument
panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as the plastic. The
PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th revision. For a
simple
flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval
to
make it for a certified airplane.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
Message 3
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Put yourself in the shoes of an FAA employee. The most important thing to
him is keeping his job. His mission is to make aviation safer. His
priority it to approve changes that make flying safer. If you have a fix
that will solve a problem causing accidents, it will go to the top of his
priority list for approval. Changes of a cosmetic nature are way down the
list. Every time he signs his name to a change, his job is on the line; it
is just safer for him not to approve any changes unless it is one that if
not approved can be shown to have caused and accident. He is a little
safer if the person that is requesting the change has a reputation of
making safe, long lasting fixes versus changes that require SB's or AD's.
A tip I was given many years ago for getting government people to do
something: Think of the government employee as a trained, dancing
elephant. The elephant does not like to dance and much prefers eating to
dancing. To get him to dance, you have to prick his feet with something
sharp enough to be painful. Translation: call, write, visit, become a
total pain in the ass until you get what you want.
Buddy Cox
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Kevin <aa5_driver@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> And people wonder why so few people fly anymore. It seems many of the faa
> processes are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer works.
> I don't believe that the original intent of the rules was to prevent any
> changes to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by the design of
> the system that we must work with. There is a strangle hold on innovation
> and progress. Aviation is almost frozen in time and the light at the end
> of the tunnel is fading. Simple changes or even more major changes should
> not take so much time and expense as is currently required. One should not
> have to reinvent the wheel for every change. Why not allow a certified
> category for those who wish to continue to conform to the type cert., and a
> hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate from the stock
> configuration. I'm not suggesting that no testing be done, but rather that
> if one can reasonably prove the change works then it would be allowed as is
> done in the homebuilt cat!
> egory. Also one standard applied equally throughout the system would be
> nice as well. Enough with things being interpreted one way here and
> another at each of the various offices. For non commercial opps the system
> is unrealistic. I'm glad that there are at least a few folks left who have
> the patience to keep trying to make progress. Thanks for your efforts.
>
> Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Where do I vent?
> >
> >I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No
> responses in 5 months.
> >
> >I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in
> 4 months.
> >
> >I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you
> believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached
> to the instrument panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as
> the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th
> revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend
> $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane.
> >
> >Gary
> >Sent from my iPad
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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On 11/4/2012 12:59 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote:
> For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend $5,000+ to get
approval to make it for a certified airplane.
>
Which is exactly why the experimental market has seen a significant
increase in the past few years...
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
Message 5
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Message 6
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Buddy,=0A=0AI understand the 'cover-your-ass' theory. -Except, none of th
e FAA employees can be sued. -No one involved in the overlay PMA process
thinks they need a stress analysis . . . -expect for the structures peopl
e at the ACO.=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: B
uddy Cox <buddycox@gmail.com>=0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent:
Sunday, November 4, 2012 12:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DER
s=0A =0A=0APut yourself in the shoes of an FAA employee.- The most import
ant thing to him is keeping his job.- His mission is to make aviation saf
er.- His priority it to approve changes that make flying safer.- If you
have a fix that will solve a problem causing accidents, it will go to the
top of his priority list for approval.- Changes of a cosmetic nature are
way down the list.- Every time he signs his name to a change, his job is
on the line; it is just safer for him not to approve any changes unless it
is one that if not approved can be shown to have caused and accident.- He
is a little safer if the person that is requesting the change has a-repu
tation of making safe, long lasting fixes versus changes that require SB's
or AD's.=0AA tip I was given many years ago for getting government people t
o do something:- Think of the government employee as a trained, dancing e
lephant.- The elephant does not like to dance and much prefers eating to
dancing.- To get him to dance, you have to prick his feet with something
sharp enough to be painful.- Translation: call, write, visit, become a to
tal pain in the ass until you get what you want.=0ABuddy Cox=0A=0A=0AOn Sun
, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Kevin <aa5_driver@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A=0A--> Team
Grumman-List message posted by: Kevin <aa5_driver@yahoo.com>=0A>=0A>And peo
ple wonder why so few people fly anymore. -It seems many of the faa proce
sses are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer works. -I d
on't believe that the original intent of the rules was to prevent any chang
es to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by the design of the
system that we must work with. -There is a strangle hold on innovation an
d progress. -Aviation is almost frozen in time and the light at the end o
f the tunnel is fading. -Simple changes or even more major changes should
not take so much time and expense as is currently required. -One should
not have to reinvent the wheel for every change. -Why not allow a certifi
ed category for those who wish to continue to conform to the type cert., an
d a hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate from the stock config
uration. -I'm not suggesting that no testing be done, but rather that if
one can reasonably prove the change works then it would be allowed
as is done in the homebuilt cat!=0A>-egory. -Also one standard applied
equally throughout the system would be nice as well. -Enough with things
being interpreted one way here and another at each of the various offices.
-For non commercial opps the system is unrealistic. -I'm glad that the
re are at least a few folks left who have the patience to keep trying to ma
ke progress. -Thanks for your efforts.=0A>=0A>Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@ya
<teamgrumman@yahoo.com>=0A>>=0A>>Where do I vent?=0A>>=0A>>I've been very
patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No responses in 5 months.
=0A>>=0A>>I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No resp
onse in 4 months.=0A>>=0A>>I just about have the PMA for the instrument pan
el overlays. Would you believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overla
y because it's attached to the instrument panel? -I have to show that the
aluminum is as good as the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to app
roval) is on its 5th revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative alumin
um, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airp
lane.=0A>>=0A>>Gary=0A>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>
============0A>="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com=0A>oo
ks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A>et="_blank">www.homebu
ilthelp.com=0A>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>le, Lis
t Admin.=0A>============0A>List" target="_blank">ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>=======
=====0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>=========
=====================
Message 7
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The tip I was referring to came from the wing commander during commander's
call. The wing king stands in front of the crew dogs and answers questions
and complaints. His response was in response to a complaint about not
being able to get a new pair of boots from supply. "I put in a request
form 4 months ago and have not gotten any boots yet." This is just the way
government works. There is no profit motive like there would be if the
person was given cash and allowed to buy their won boots. Milton Friedman,
in his book Free To Choose, said their are 4 kinds of spending:
Type 1: Spending YOUR money on yourself-- always the most careful kind of
spending
Type 2: Spending YOUR money on someone else -- like a gift, still careful
but less so
Type 3: Spending SOME ONE ELSE's money on yourself- like an expense
account where you demand for 1st class everything
Type 4: Spending SOME ONE ELSE's money on someone else-- government
spending always the most wasteful spending.
A government employee will spend $600 on a hammer because it satisfies the
specifics of the purchase request. Buying a cheaper, similar hammer will
get them fired where choosing the cheaper on for themselves has no
consequences.
This is true no matter who is in charge of the government, There is a pawn
shop in my home town HONEST CHARLIE'S. His sign says "We buy junk; Sell
only highest quality merchandise." Maybe I am a skeptic because I have
never bought anything from Honest Charlie. Political promises are like the
promises you make to the wife when you want to buy an airplane. We will
fly to see your Mom all the time and save all kinds of money by not having
to stay in hotels. Once you get the plane, the weather is always too bad
en route to Mom's so you just fly to your alumni football games.
If you want the government certification, you have to play by their rules.
Go experiential and loose the government certification; you have a choice.
It is getting to be a closer call. I prefer the certification.
Buddy Cox
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Kevin <aa5_driver@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Things such as those you speak of are just another example of our out of
> control government not serving the people. It is really unacceptable and we
> should not stand for this behavior.
>
> We as a group need to be more vocal in our rejection of bad behavior and
> service from our government. Don't forget to vote for those who will
> represent us and vote out those who do not.
>
>
> Buddy Cox <buddycox@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Put yourself in the shoes of an FAA employee. The most important thing to
> him is keeping his job. His mission is to make aviation safer. His
> priority it to approve changes that make flying safer. If you have a fix
> that will solve a problem causing accidents, it will go to the top of his
> priority list for approval. Changes of a cosmetic nature are way down the
> list. Every time he signs his name to a change, his job is on the line; it
> is just safer for him not to approve any changes unless it is one that if
> not approved can be shown to have caused and accident. He is a little
> safer if the person that is requesting the change has a reputation of
> making safe, long lasting fixes versus changes that require SB's or AD's.
> A tip I was given many years ago for getting government people to do
> something: Think of the government employee as a trained, dancing
> elephant. The elephant does not like to dance and much prefers eating to
> dancing. To get him to dance, you have to prick his feet with something
> sharp enough to be painful. Translation: call, write, visit, become a
> total pain in the ass until you get what you want.
> Buddy Cox
>
> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Kevin <aa5_driver@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> And people wonder why so few people fly anymore. It seems many of the
>> faa processes are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer
>> works. I don't believe that the original intent of the rules was to
>> prevent any changes to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by
>> the design of the system that we must work with. There is a strangle hold
>> on innovation and progress. Aviation is almost frozen in time and the
>> light at the end of the tunnel is fading. Simple changes or even more
>> major changes should not take so much time and expense as is currently
>> required. One should not have to reinvent the wheel for every change. Why
>> not allow a certified category for those who wish to continue to conform to
>> the type cert., and a hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate
>> from the stock configuration. I'm not suggesting that no testing be done,
>> but rather that if one can reasonably prove the change works then it would
>> be allowed as is done in the homebuilt cat!
>> egory. Also one standard applied equally throughout the system would be
>> nice as well. Enough with things being interpreted one way here and
>> another at each of the various offices. For non commercial opps the system
>> is unrealistic. I'm glad that there are at least a few folks left who have
>> the patience to keep trying to make progress. Thanks for your efforts.
>>
>> Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> >Where do I vent?
>> >
>> >I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No
>> responses in 5 months.
>> >
>> >I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in
>> 4 months.
>> >
>> >I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you
>> believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached
>> to the instrument panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as
>> the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th
>> revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend
>> $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane.
>> >
>> >Gary
>> >Sent from my iPad
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
>> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> le, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> ==========
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Wing in ground effect Hovercraft uh 18spw Hoverwing |
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FViP5izaj8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Gary
Sent from my iPad
Message 9
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| Subject: | The homemade flying hovercraft |
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ih_KBru6Co&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Gary
Sent from my iPad
Message 10
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| Subject: | Airfish WIG craft |
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw69O_AQU1A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Gary
Sent from my iPad
Message 11
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| Subject: | DH Mosquito First Flight Sept 29 2012 Ardmore NZ.wmv |
If this doesn't make you hard, nothing will.
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsAc_s6_CDI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Gary
Sent from my iPad
Message 12
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| Subject: | The Mosquito Flys - KA114 first flights |
My favorite plane.
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEyDlgJYIF8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Gary
Sent from my iPad
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