---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/04/12: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:25 AM - Re: FAA/DERs (Kevin) 2. 09:03 AM - Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/03/12 (goldpilot@aol.com) 3. 12:28 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Buddy Cox) 4. 12:33 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Dj Merrill) 5. 01:26 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Kevin) 6. 01:26 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Gary Vogt) 7. 02:01 PM - Re: FAA/DERs (Buddy Cox) 8. 08:59 PM - Wing in ground effect Hovercraft uh 18spw Hoverwing (Gary L Vogt) 9. 09:00 PM - The homemade flying hovercraft (Gary L Vogt) 10. 09:26 PM - Airfish WIG craft (Gary L Vogt) 11. 09:56 PM - DH Mosquito First Flight Sept 29 2012 Ardmore NZ.wmv (Gary L Vogt) 12. 09:59 PM - The Mosquito Flys - KA114 first flights (Gary L Vogt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs From: Kevin And people wonder why so few people fly anymore. It seems many of the faa processes are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer works. I don't believe that the original intent of the rules was to prevent any changes to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by the design of the system that we must work with. There is a strangle hold on innovation and progress. Aviation is almost frozen in time and the light at the end of the tunnel is fading. Simple changes or even more major changes should not take so much time and expense as is currently required. One should not have to reinvent the wheel for every change. Why not allow a certified category for those who wish to continue to conform to the type cert., and a hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate from the stock configuration. I'm not suggesting that no testing be done, but rather that if one can reasonably prove the change works then it would be allowed as is done in the homebuilt category. Also one standard applied equally throughout the system would be nice as well. Enough with things being interpreted one way here and another at each of the various offices. For non commercial opps the system is unrealistic. I'm glad that there are at least a few folks left who have the patience to keep trying to make progress. Thanks for your efforts. Gary L Vogt wrote: > >Where do I vent? > >I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No responses in 5 months. > >I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in 4 months. > >I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached to the instrument panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane. > >Gary >Sent from my iPad > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:52 AM PST US From: "goldpilot@aol.com" Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/03/12 Do you think AOPA might care? Maybe one of their hot-shot editors? Maybe they can do something for the little guy instead of catering to $1,000,000,000 dollar aircraft manufacturers. Airplanes so far out of our reach that it's easier to go to the moon. Don't forget, the government is out to get rid of us little airplane guys. We are a threat to the security of the United States. Just like gun owners. David Fly low, fly fast, turn left! -----Original message----- From: TeamGrumman-List Digest Server Sent: Sun, Nov 4, 2012 07:20:08 GMT+00:00 Subject: TeamGrumman-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 11/03/12 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete TeamGrumman-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the TeamGrumman-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter= 2012-11-03&Archive=TeamGrumman Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2 012-11-03&Archive=TeamGrumman =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/03/12: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 10:31 AM - Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists (Matt Dralle) 1. 09:44 PM - Bat 21 (Gary L Vogt) 2. 09:59 PM - FAA/DERs (Gary L Vogt) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:53 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Please Make A Contribution To Support Your Lists Dear Listers, There is no advertising income to support the Matronics Email Lists and Forums. The operation is supported 100% by your personal Contributions during the November Fund Raiser. Please make your Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. You can pick up a really nice gift for making your Contribution too! You may use a Credit Card or Paypal at the Matronics Contribution Site here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or, you can send a personal check to the following address: Matronics / Matt Dralle 581 Jeannie Way Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you in advance for your generous support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:22 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Bat 21 From: Gary L Vogt Anne Marie, I had just told Mike about Bat 21. It's on KTVXH here in Auburn. Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:52 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs From: Gary L Vogt Where do I vent? I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No responses in 5 months. I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in 4 months. I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached to the instrument panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane. Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs From: Buddy Cox Put yourself in the shoes of an FAA employee. The most important thing to him is keeping his job. His mission is to make aviation safer. His priority it to approve changes that make flying safer. If you have a fix that will solve a problem causing accidents, it will go to the top of his priority list for approval. Changes of a cosmetic nature are way down the list. Every time he signs his name to a change, his job is on the line; it is just safer for him not to approve any changes unless it is one that if not approved can be shown to have caused and accident. He is a little safer if the person that is requesting the change has a reputation of making safe, long lasting fixes versus changes that require SB's or AD's. A tip I was given many years ago for getting government people to do something: Think of the government employee as a trained, dancing elephant. The elephant does not like to dance and much prefers eating to dancing. To get him to dance, you have to prick his feet with something sharp enough to be painful. Translation: call, write, visit, become a total pain in the ass until you get what you want. Buddy Cox On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Kevin wrote: > > And people wonder why so few people fly anymore. It seems many of the faa > processes are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer works. > I don't believe that the original intent of the rules was to prevent any > changes to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by the design of > the system that we must work with. There is a strangle hold on innovation > and progress. Aviation is almost frozen in time and the light at the end > of the tunnel is fading. Simple changes or even more major changes should > not take so much time and expense as is currently required. One should not > have to reinvent the wheel for every change. Why not allow a certified > category for those who wish to continue to conform to the type cert., and a > hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate from the stock > configuration. I'm not suggesting that no testing be done, but rather that > if one can reasonably prove the change works then it would be allowed as is > done in the homebuilt cat! > egory. Also one standard applied equally throughout the system would be > nice as well. Enough with things being interpreted one way here and > another at each of the various offices. For non commercial opps the system > is unrealistic. I'm glad that there are at least a few folks left who have > the patience to keep trying to make progress. Thanks for your efforts. > > Gary L Vogt wrote: > > teamgrumman@yahoo.com> > > > >Where do I vent? > > > >I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No > responses in 5 months. > > > >I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in > 4 months. > > > >I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you > believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached > to the instrument panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as > the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th > revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend > $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane. > > > >Gary > >Sent from my iPad > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs From: Dj Merrill On 11/4/2012 12:59 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote: > For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane. > Which is exactly why the experimental market has seen a significant increase in the past few years... -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs From: Kevin VGhpbmdzIHN1Y2ggYXMgdGhvc2UgeW91IHNwZWFrIG9mIGFyZSBqdXN0IGFub3RoZXIgZXhhbXBs 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the shoes of an FAA employee.- The most import ant thing to him is keeping his job.- His mission is to make aviation saf er.- His priority it to approve changes that make flying safer.- If you have a fix that will solve a problem causing accidents, it will go to the top of his priority list for approval.- Changes of a cosmetic nature are way down the list.- Every time he signs his name to a change, his job is on the line; it is just safer for him not to approve any changes unless it is one that if not approved can be shown to have caused and accident.- He is a little safer if the person that is requesting the change has a-repu tation of making safe, long lasting fixes versus changes that require SB's or AD's.=0AA tip I was given many years ago for getting government people t o do something:- Think of the government employee as a trained, dancing e lephant.- The elephant does not like to dance and much prefers eating to dancing.- To get him to dance, you have to prick his feet with something sharp enough to be painful.- Translation: call, write, visit, become a to tal pain in the ass until you get what you want.=0ABuddy Cox=0A=0A=0AOn Sun , Nov 4, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Kevin wrote:=0A=0A--> Team Grumman-List message posted by: Kevin =0A>=0A>And peo ple wonder why so few people fly anymore. -It seems many of the faa proce sses are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer works. -I d on't believe that the original intent of the rules was to prevent any chang es to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by the design of the system that we must work with. -There is a strangle hold on innovation an d progress. -Aviation is almost frozen in time and the light at the end o f the tunnel is fading. -Simple changes or even more major changes should not take so much time and expense as is currently required. -One should not have to reinvent the wheel for every change. -Why not allow a certifi ed category for those who wish to continue to conform to the type cert., an d a hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate from the stock config uration. -I'm not suggesting that no testing be done, but rather that if one can reasonably prove the change works then it would be allowed as is done in the homebuilt cat!=0A>-egory. -Also one standard applied equally throughout the system would be nice as well. -Enough with things being interpreted one way here and another at each of the various offices. -For non commercial opps the system is unrealistic. -I'm glad that the re are at least a few folks left who have the patience to keep trying to ma ke progress. -Thanks for your efforts.=0A>=0A>Gary L Vogt =0A>>=0A>>Where do I vent?=0A>>=0A>>I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No responses in 5 months. =0A>>=0A>>I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No resp onse in 4 months.=0A>>=0A>>I just about have the PMA for the instrument pan el overlays. Would you believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overla y because it's attached to the instrument panel? -I have to show that the aluminum is as good as the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to app roval) is on its 5th revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative alumin um, I need to spend $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airp lane.=0A>>=0A>>Gary=0A>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A> ============0A>="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com=0A>oo ks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com=0A>et="_blank">www.homebu ilthelp.com=0A>="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>le, Lis t Admin.=0A>============0A>List" target="_blank">ht tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List=0A>======= =====0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>========= ===================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:01:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: FAA/DERs From: Buddy Cox The tip I was referring to came from the wing commander during commander's call. The wing king stands in front of the crew dogs and answers questions and complaints. His response was in response to a complaint about not being able to get a new pair of boots from supply. "I put in a request form 4 months ago and have not gotten any boots yet." This is just the way government works. There is no profit motive like there would be if the person was given cash and allowed to buy their won boots. Milton Friedman, in his book Free To Choose, said their are 4 kinds of spending: Type 1: Spending YOUR money on yourself-- always the most careful kind of spending Type 2: Spending YOUR money on someone else -- like a gift, still careful but less so Type 3: Spending SOME ONE ELSE's money on yourself- like an expense account where you demand for 1st class everything Type 4: Spending SOME ONE ELSE's money on someone else-- government spending always the most wasteful spending. A government employee will spend $600 on a hammer because it satisfies the specifics of the purchase request. Buying a cheaper, similar hammer will get them fired where choosing the cheaper on for themselves has no consequences. This is true no matter who is in charge of the government, There is a pawn shop in my home town HONEST CHARLIE'S. His sign says "We buy junk; Sell only highest quality merchandise." Maybe I am a skeptic because I have never bought anything from Honest Charlie. Political promises are like the promises you make to the wife when you want to buy an airplane. We will fly to see your Mom all the time and save all kinds of money by not having to stay in hotels. Once you get the plane, the weather is always too bad en route to Mom's so you just fly to your alumni football games. If you want the government certification, you have to play by their rules. Go experiential and loose the government certification; you have a choice. It is getting to be a closer call. I prefer the certification. Buddy Cox On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Kevin wrote: > Things such as those you speak of are just another example of our out of > control government not serving the people. It is really unacceptable and we > should not stand for this behavior. > > We as a group need to be more vocal in our rejection of bad behavior and > service from our government. Don't forget to vote for those who will > represent us and vote out those who do not. > > > Buddy Cox wrote: > > Put yourself in the shoes of an FAA employee. The most important thing to > him is keeping his job. His mission is to make aviation safer. His > priority it to approve changes that make flying safer. If you have a fix > that will solve a problem causing accidents, it will go to the top of his > priority list for approval. Changes of a cosmetic nature are way down the > list. Every time he signs his name to a change, his job is on the line; it > is just safer for him not to approve any changes unless it is one that if > not approved can be shown to have caused and accident. He is a little > safer if the person that is requesting the change has a reputation of > making safe, long lasting fixes versus changes that require SB's or AD's. > A tip I was given many years ago for getting government people to do > something: Think of the government employee as a trained, dancing > elephant. The elephant does not like to dance and much prefers eating to > dancing. To get him to dance, you have to prick his feet with something > sharp enough to be painful. Translation: call, write, visit, become a > total pain in the ass until you get what you want. > Buddy Cox > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Kevin wrote: > >> >> And people wonder why so few people fly anymore. It seems many of the >> faa processes are so archaic or il conceived that the system no longer >> works. I don't believe that the original intent of the rules was to >> prevent any changes to a certified bird, but that is what has happened by >> the design of the system that we must work with. There is a strangle hold >> on innovation and progress. Aviation is almost frozen in time and the >> light at the end of the tunnel is fading. Simple changes or even more >> major changes should not take so much time and expense as is currently >> required. One should not have to reinvent the wheel for every change. Why >> not allow a certified category for those who wish to continue to conform to >> the type cert., and a hybrid experimental for those who wish to deviate >> from the stock configuration. I'm not suggesting that no testing be done, >> but rather that if one can reasonably prove the change works then it would >> be allowed as is done in the homebuilt cat! >> egory. Also one standard applied equally throughout the system would be >> nice as well. Enough with things being interpreted one way here and >> another at each of the various offices. For non commercial opps the system >> is unrealistic. I'm glad that there are at least a few folks left who have >> the patience to keep trying to make progress. Thanks for your efforts. >> >> Gary L Vogt wrote: >> >> teamgrumman@yahoo.com> >> > >> >Where do I vent? >> > >> >I've been very patient with the FAA on minor change paperwork. No >> responses in 5 months. >> > >> >I've been very patient with the DER on 2 PMAs and an STC. No response in >> 4 months. >> > >> >I just about have the PMA for the instrument panel overlays. Would you >> believe I need to do a stress analysis on the overlay because it's attached >> to the instrument panel? I have to show that the aluminum is as good as >> the plastic. The PSCP (the package I send in to approval) is on its 5th >> revision. For a simple flat piece of decorative aluminum, I need to spend >> $5,000+ to get approval to make it for a certified airplane. >> > >> >Gary >> >Sent from my iPad >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ========== >> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com >> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> le, List Admin. >> ========== >> List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:01 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Wing in ground effect Hovercraft uh 18spw Hoverwing From: Gary L Vogt Check out this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FViP5izaj8E&feature=youtube_gdata_player Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:40 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: The homemade flying hovercraft From: Gary L Vogt Check out this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ih_KBru6Co&feature=youtube_gdata_player Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:06 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Airfish WIG craft From: Gary L Vogt Check out this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw69O_AQU1A&feature=youtube_gdata_player Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:02 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: DH Mosquito First Flight Sept 29 2012 Ardmore NZ.wmv From: Gary L Vogt If this doesn't make you hard, nothing will. Check out this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsAc_s6_CDI&feature=youtube_gdata_player Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:05 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: The Mosquito Flys - KA114 first flights From: Gary L Vogt My favorite plane. Check out this video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEyDlgJYIF8&feature=youtube_gdata_player Gary Sent from my iPad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.