---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/26/12: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 10:03 AM - Contributions Down By 23%... (Matt Dralle) 1. 10:15 AM - Jaguar Cowling update (Gary Vogt) 2. 10:21 PM - Re: Contributions Down By 23%... (Mel Beckman) 3. 10:57 PM - Re: Contributions Down By 23%... (Gary L Vogt) 4. 11:25 PM - Re: Contributions Down By 23%... (Mel Beckman) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:53 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Contributions Down By 23%... Dear Listers, As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply to cover my operating costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid. I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public address space. I also maintain a full backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive data could be restored onto a new server in a matter of hours. All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I ask that members that feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you can use a credit card, Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:59 AM PST US From: Gary Vogt Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Jaguar Cowling update As of today,-=0A=0AThese are the Tiger owners taking advantage of the cur rent Jaguar cowling prices before the price goes up.=0A=0A1. Bob Weiss=0A2. Ray Owen=0A3. Bill Stigile=0A4. Bobby Denham* (waiting on a deposit)=0A5. =0A6.=0A=0A=0ARay is getting a pre-fitted cowling, ready to install rivets, final finish and paint for $9230. -That is a savings of $2,199 over the new price as of next week.=0ABob, Bill, and Bobby will be getting their cow ling installed and painted white for $11,000. -That is a savings of $2,44 9 over the new price.=0A=0ASign up today, and if I get 4 committed buyers, with deposits, by December 1, 2012, I'll extend the sale to the end of the year. -Plus, if I get 6 orders by the end of the year, I'll install them all here in Auburn for $10,000. -That is a savings of $3,449. -$10,000 installed price, includes painting white (no stripes) and is a savings of 2 5.6% ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:29 PM PST US From: Mel Beckman Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Contributions Down By 23%... I'm an ISP infrastructure engineer, so I understand your desire to maintain your own servers and commercial Internet connection. However, for a mailing list such as TeamGrumman, I think it's simply not cost effective to do this. There are so many excellent free mailing list services, much more functional than the software you use for TeamGrumman. You mention the significant amount of personal time you have to spend maintaining your infrastructure. Pushing the list to a service would cut that time requirement way down. For example, GMane.org's free mail archiving service is an email-to-archive gateway similar to what you have now, but with infinite Web archive browsing and searching (instead of just 7 days), RSS feeds, realtime indexing and extensive spam filtering. You can have a moderated list, with closed or moderated posting, and it even supports Usenet news readers. There are many other similar free services. I totally get your desire to run your own boxes and control everything yourself. But that's a separate hobby from TeamGrumman. Since it is possible for you to run a higher quality list for free on one of these other services, it doesn't seem practical for you to expect donations for the cost of your own mini datacenter. By going to a high volume service, you'd gain valuable personal time and subscribers would gain some useful features, such as RSS feeds and complex searches. -mel On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > Dear Listers, > > As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply to cover my operating > costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid. > > I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public address space. I also maintain a full > backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive data could be restored > onto a new server in a matter of hours. > > All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I ask that members that > feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. > > If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you can use a credit card, > Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services: > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: > > Matt Dralle / Matronics > 581 Jeannie Way > Livermore CA 94550 > > Thank you for your support! > > Matt Dralle > Matronics Email List Administrator > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Contributions Down By 23%... From: Gary L Vogt This is not my service. Matte Dralle runs a lot of lists. This is just one o f them. Thanks for your concern, but, really it isn't an issue. Gary Sent from my iPad On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:20 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: > I'm an ISP infrastructure engineer, so I understand your desire to mainta in your own servers and commercial Internet connection. However, for a maili ng list such as TeamGrumman, I think it's simply not cost effective to do th is. There are so many excellent free mailing list services, much more functi onal than the software you use for TeamGrumman. You mention the significant a mount of personal time you have to spend maintaining your infrastructure. Pu shing the list to a service would cut that time requirement way down. > > For example, GMane.org's free mail archiving service is an email-to-archiv e gateway similar to what you have now, but with infinite Web archive browsi ng and searching (instead of just 7 days), RSS feeds, realtime indexing and e xtensive spam filtering. You can have a moderated list, with closed or moder ated posting, and it even supports Usenet news readers. > > There are many other similar free services. > > I totally get your desire to run your own boxes and control everything you rself. But that's a separate hobby from TeamGrumman. Since it is possible fo r you to run a higher quality list for free on one of these other services, i t doesn't seem practical for you to expect donations for the cost of your ow n mini datacenter. By going to a high volume service, you'd gain valuable pe rsonal time and subscribers would gain some useful features, such as RSS fee ds and complex searches. > > -mel > > On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > >> >> Dear Listers, >> >> As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging b ehind last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply to cover my operating >> costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expen ses paid. >> >> I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Int ernet connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public addre ss space. I also maintain a full >> backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that i n the event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List a rchive data could be restored >> onto a new server in a matter of hours. >> >> All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant am ount of my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these cos ts and I ask that members that >> feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contributio n each year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services .. >> >> If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer s ome incentive gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you can use a credit card, >> Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of th ese services: >> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: >> >> Matt Dralle / Matronics >> 581 Jeannie Way >> Livermore CA 94550 >> >> Thank you for your support! >> >> Matt Dralle >> Matronics Email List -= -- Please Support Your Lists (A nd Get AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/co - Matt Dralle, List - The --> http://www.ma &n==== ======== >> >> >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:50 PM PST US From: Mel Beckman Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Contributions Down By 23%... Gary, I realize this isn't your service. But I wasn't addressing you. I was replying to Matt's email requesting donations for maintaining TeamGrumman and his other many lists. Donations are an issue today since they're declining, as Matt points out. I don't want to see TeamGrumman or any of the other lists go away due to unmet operational costs. Donations won't be as much of an issue if Matt hosts his lists for free, with higher quality and reliability, using one of the services I describe. Two Internet T1s cost at least several hundred dollars per month, because unlike asymmetrical DSL or cable Internet (which has faster download than upload), T1's have the same 1.5 Mbps each up and down. That upload bandwidth is necessary to delivery continuous streams of mailing list messages to subscribers. It's an expense that goes away with a free list service. Matt's T1s, while expensive, are not as reliable as the free bandwidth available to free list sites, which typically are located at backbone data centers with gigabits of upstream connectivity. So while lowering costs, Matt also gains resilience. You need at least two server-class computers for reliable on-site application hosting, and I suspect Matt has many more than two. Each costs thousands of dollars to purchase and maintain. Those costs also drop dramatically with outside list hosting, since lists can be maintained from an ordinary desktop computer. With offsite list hosting, the only cost to Matt is his time. I dearly appreciate his generous contribution of labor to the current infrastructure. With offsite hosting, Matt gets a huge amount of that time back. it's certainly fair for Matt to request donations for his labor. Offsite hosting seems to me an attractive solution to the declining donations. I've seen offsite hosting of all kinds of applications work for many of my clients too. It's a time-tested option. -mel On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:58 PM, Gary L Vogt wrote: > This is not my service. Matte Dralle runs a lot of lists. This is just one of them. > > Thanks for your concern, but, really it isn't an issue. > > Gary > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:20 PM, Mel Beckman wrote: > >> I'm an ISP infrastructure engineer, so I understand your desire to maintain your own servers and commercial Internet connection. However, for a mailing list such as TeamGrumman, I think it's simply not cost effective to do this. There are so many excellent free mailing list services, much more functional than the software you use for TeamGrumman. You mention the significant amount of personal time you have to spend maintaining your infrastructure. Pushing the list to a service would cut that time requirement way down. >> >> For example, GMane.org's free mail archiving service is an email-to-archive gateway similar to what you have now, but with infinite Web archive browsing and searching (instead of just 7 days), RSS feeds, realtime indexing and extensive spam filtering. You can have a moderated list, with closed or moderated posting, and it even supports Usenet news readers. >> >> There are many other similar free services. >> >> I totally get your desire to run your own boxes and control everything yourself. But that's a separate hobby from TeamGrumman. Since it is possible for you to run a higher quality list for free on one of these other services, it doesn't seem practical for you to expect donations for the cost of your own mini datacenter. By going to a high volume service, you'd gain valuable personal time and subscribers would gain some useful features, such as RSS feeds and complex searches. >> >> -mel >> >> On Nov 26, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: >> >>> >>> Dear Listers, >>> >>> As of today, Contributions to the Matronics List Fund Raiser are lagging behind last year at this time by roughly 23%. I have a Fund Raiser each year simply to cover my operating >>> costs for the Lists. I *do not* accept any advertising income to support the Lists and rely solely on the Contributions of members to keep the expenses paid. >>> >>> I run all of my own servers and they are housed here locally, and the Internet connection is a commercial-grade, dual T1 connection with public address space. I also maintain a full >>> backup system that does nightly backups of all List-related data so that in the event of a server crash, all of the Lists and the many years of List archive data could be restored >>> onto a new server in a matter of hours. >>> >>> All of this costs a fair amount of money, not to mention a significant amount of my personal time. I have a Fund Raiser each year to cover these costs and I ask that members that >>> feel they receive a benefit from my investments make a modest Contribution each year to support the continued operation and upgrade of these services. >>> >>> If you enjoy the Lists, please make a Contribution today. I also offer some incentive gifts for larger Contribution levels. At the Contribution Web Site, you can use a credit card, >>> Paypal, or personal check to show your support for the continuation of these services: >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: >>> >>> Matt Dralle / Matronics >>> 581 Jeannie Way >>> Livermore CA 94550 >>> >>> Thank you for your support! >>> >>> Matt Dralle >>> Matronics Email List -= -- Please Support Your Lists (And Get AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/co -Matt Dralle, List - The --> http://www.ma &n============ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ======================== >> " face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com >> >www.buildersbooks.com >> uilthelp.com >> matronics.com/contribution >> ======================== >> t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> ======================== >> cs.com >> ======================== >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.