---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/04/13: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:03 AM - Engine won't start (Gary L Vogt) 2. 06:55 AM - Re: Engine won't start (923TE) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: Engine won't start (923TE) 4. 07:09 AM - Re: Engine won't start (923TE) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: Engine won't start (BILL9725@AOL.COM) 6. 08:11 AM - Re: Engine won't start (923TE) 7. 08:12 AM - Re: Engine won't start (BILL9725@AOL.COM) 8. 10:20 PM - Re: Engine won't start (Gary L Vogt) 9. 10:31 PM - Re: Engine won't start (Dean M. White) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:48 AM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start From: Gary L Vogt Today we removed the plugs and checked the gaps. All plugs clean and a like tan color. Gaps at 0.018 to 0.019 inches on all plugs. Checked compressions, 79, 78, 78, 77 Removed the mags. They go to Magneto Andy tomorrow. Gary Sent from my iPad ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:01 AM PST US From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start Probably far fetched that this would apply here but Mike Busch's article in M arch 2013 Sport Aviation found a faulty Mag timing device that led to timing to be set too high causing hard starts and high CHT's Read it here starting on page 30 lower right corner http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm= 1361855698000&pg=32 Again grasping at straws but By chance did you check spark plug resistance? http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCard .pdf Sacramento Sky Ranch may have some insight on the last paragraph of this pag e http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm Where he points to the carb having too lean a mixture: "Nothing you do will fix it. Mag check -- engine coughs and sputters on left magneto. Replace magneto - still rough Check ignition harness - checks fine - still rough Replace "P" lead - still rough So lets replace the harness "just in case" --Success engine runs fine. 10 ho urs later problem returns! One other item interest; can't lean engine, as soon as the mixture is pulled back the engine sputters. So what's the solution? The big hint here is the mixture control. It points to the carburetor and on ly the carburetor. But why just on the left magneto? Lets say you have crapp y fuel atomization and fuel distribution. Not real bad, but just bad enough. With two spark plugs firing it ignites a leaner mixture and the engine runs fine. But lets impar the ignition system slightly by weakening it. Turn off 1 magneto and now try to ignite the mixture - it can't do it as well and th e engine coughs and shudders. Lean out the mixture just slightly and now eve n with sparks flying out of two spark plugs it can't ignite the mixture ever y time. It misses a few strokes then enough fuel has gathered that it ignite s and burns and then the cycle repeats. The carburetor nozzle was replaced a nd now the engine runs fine." ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:04 AM PST US From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start More good things to check for Sac Sky Ranch: http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng16.htm ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:58 AM PST US From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start One more http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng39.htm ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:53 AM PST US From: BILL9725@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start Want to mention in case anyone has not heard, Sac Sky Ranch is closing the end of this month, March. Owner is retiring and sons do not want to continue business! Very sad and leaves a hole in choices for everyone. Bill Stigile In a message dated 3/4/2013 6:55:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att.net writes: Probably far fetched that this would apply here but Mike Busch's article in March 2013 Sport Aviation found a faulty Mag timing device that led to timing to be set too high causing hard starts and high CHT's Read it here starting on page 30 lower right corner _http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm=1 361855698000&pg=32_ (http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm=1361855698000&pg=32) Again grasping at straws but By chance did you check spark plug resistance? _http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCar d.pdf_ (http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCard.pdf) Sacramento Sky Ranch may have some insight on the last paragraph of this page _http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm_ (http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm) Where he points to the carb having too lean a mixture: "Nothing you do will fix it. Mag check -- engine coughs and sputters on left magneto. * Replace magneto - still rough * Check ignition harness - checks fine - still rough * Replace "P" lead - still rough So lets replace the harness "just in case" --Success engine runs fine. 10 hours later problem returns! One other item interest; can't lean engine, as soon as the mixture is pulled back the engine sputters. So what's the solution? The big hint here is the mixture control. It points to the carburetor and only the carburetor. But why just on the left magneto? Lets say you have crappy fuel atomization and fuel distribution. Not real bad, but just bad enough. With two spark plugs firing it ignites a leaner mixture and the engine runs fine. But lets impar the ignition system slightly by weakening it. Turn off 1 magneto and now try to ignite the mixture - it can't do it as well and the engine coughs and shudders. Lean out the mixture just slightly and now even with sparks flying out of two spark plugs it can't ignite the mixture every time. It misses a few strokes then enough fuel has gathered that it ignites and burns and then the cycle repeats. The carburetor nozzle was replaced and now the engine runs fine." (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:45 AM PST US From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start Do you know if their website will continue? On Mar 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, BILL9725@AOL.COM wrote: Want to mention in case anyone has not heard, Sac Sky Ranch is closing the e nd of this month, March. Owner is retiring and sons do not want to continue business! Very sad and leaves a hole in choices for everyone. Bill Stigile In a message dated 3/4/2013 6:55:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att.ne t writes: Probably far fetched that this would apply here but Mike Busch's article in M arch 2013 Sport Aviation found a faulty Mag timing device that led to tim ing to be set too high causing hard starts and high CHT's Read it here starting on page 30 lower right corner http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm= 1361855698000&pg=32 Again grasping at straws but By chance did you check spark plug resistance? http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCard .pdf Sacramento Sky Ranch may have some insight on the last paragraph of this pag e http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm Where he points to the carb having too lean a mixture: "Nothing you do will fix it. Mag check -- engine coughs and sputters on left magneto. Replace magneto - still rough Check ignition harness - checks fine - still rough Replace "P" lead - still rough So lets replace the harness "just in case" --Success engine runs fine. 10 ho urs later problem returns! One other item interest; can't lean engine, as soon as the mixture is pulled back the engine sputters. So what's the solution? The big hint here is the mixture control. It points to the carburetor and on ly the carburetor. But why just on the left magneto? Lets say you have crapp y fuel atomization and fuel distribution. Not real bad, but just bad enough. With two spark plugs firing it ignites a leaner mixture and the engine runs fine. But lets impar the ignition system slightly by weakening it. Turn off 1 magneto and now try to ignite the mixture - it can't do it as well and th e engine coughs and shudders. Lean out the mixture just slightly and now eve n with sparks flying out of two spark plugs it can't ignite the mixture e very time. It misses a few strokes then enough fuel has gathered that it ign ites and burns and then the cycle repeats. The carburetor nozzle was replace d and now the engine runs fine." st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:50 AM PST US From: BILL9725@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start They are selling off all merchandise and not replacing anything so I would assume no. Bill In a message dated 3/4/2013 8:11:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att.net writes: Do you know if their website will continue? On Mar 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, _BILL9725@AOL.COM_ (mailto:BILL9725@AOL.COM) wrote: Want to mention in case anyone has not heard, Sac Sky Ranch is closing the end of this month, March. Owner is retiring and sons do not want to continue business! Very sad and leaves a hole in choices for everyone. Bill Stigile In a message dated 3/4/2013 6:55:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, _923te@att.net_ (mailto:923te@att.net) writes: Probably far fetched that this would apply here but Mike Busch's article in March 2013 Sport Aviation found a faulty Mag timing device that led to timing to be set too high causing hard starts and high CHT's Read it here starting on page 30 lower right corner _http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm=1 361855698000&pg=32_ (http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm=1361855698000&pg=32) Again grasping at straws but By chance did you check spark plug resistance? _http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCar d.pdf_ (http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCard.pdf) Sacramento Sky Ranch may have some insight on the last paragraph of this page _http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm_ (http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm) Where he points to the carb having too lean a mixture: "Nothing you do will fix it. Mag check -- engine coughs and sputters on left magneto. * Replace magneto - still rough * Check ignition harness - checks fine - still rough * Replace "P" lead - still rough So lets replace the harness "just in case" --Success engine runs fine. 10 hours later problem returns! One other item interest; can't lean engine, as soon as the mixture is pulled back the engine sputters. So what's the solution? The big hint here is the mixture control. It points to the carburetor and only the carburetor. But why just on the left magneto? Lets say you have crappy fuel atomization and fuel distribution. Not real bad, but just bad enough. With two spark plugs firing it ignites a leaner mixture and the engine runs fine. But lets impar the ignition system slightly by weakening it. Turn off 1 magneto and now try to ignite the mixture - it can't do it as well and the engine coughs and shudders. Lean out the mixture just slightly and now even with sparks flying out of two spark plugs it can't ignite the mixture every time. It misses a few strokes then enough fuel has gathered that it ignites and burns and then the cycle repeats. The carburetor nozzle was replaced and now the engine runs fine." st href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List) _s.matronics.com/_ (http://s.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) p://www.matronics.com/contribution">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) D========= (mip://0a660e20/3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List") D========= (mip://0a660e20/3D"http://forums.matronics.com") D========= (mip://0a660e20/3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution") D========= ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start From: Gary L Vogt Today. Removed both mags from a customers plane and installed them in the Tiger. St arted on 2 blades. That means the overhauled mags are AFU. At least we found ute problem. Gary Sent from my iPad On Mar 4, 2013, at 8:12 AM, BILL9725@AOL.COM wrote: > They are selling off all merchandise and not replacing anything so I would assume no. Ustomers > > Bill > > In a message dated 3/4/2013 8:11:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att. net writes: > Do you know if their website will continue? > > > On Mar 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, BILL9725@AOL.COM wrote: > > Want to mention in case anyone has not heard, Sac Sky Ranch is closing the end of this month, March. Owner is retiring and sons do not want to contin ue business! Very sad and leaves a hole in choices for everyone. > > Bill Stigile > > In a message dated 3/4/2013 6:55:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att. net writes: > Probably far fetched that this would apply here but Mike Busch's article i n March 2013 Sport Aviation found a faulty Mag timing device that led to tim ing to be set too high causing hard starts and high CHT's > > Read it here starting on page 30 lower right corner > > http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm= 1361855698000&pg=32 > > Again grasping at straws but > By chance did you check spark plug resistance? > > http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugCa rd.pdf > > Sacramento Sky Ranch may have some insight on the last paragraph of this p age > > http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm > > Where he points to the carb having too lean a mixture: > > "Nothing you do will fix it. Mag check -- engine coughs and sputters on le ft magneto. > > > Replace magneto - still rough > Check ignition harness - checks fine - still rough > Replace "P" lead - still rough > > So lets replace the harness "just in case" --Success engine runs fine. 10 h ours later problem returns! > One other item interest; can't lean engine, as soon as the mixture is pull ed back the engine sputters. > > So what's the solution? > > The big hint here is the mixture control. It points to the carburetor and o nly the carburetor. But why just on the left magneto? Lets say you have crap py fuel atomization and fuel distribution. Not real bad, but just bad enough . With two spark plugs firing it ignites a leaner mixture and the engine run s fine. But lets impar the ignition system slightly by weakening it. Turn of f 1 magneto and now try to ignite the mixture - it can't do it as well and t he engine coughs and shudders. Lean out the mixture just slightly and now ev en with sparks flying out of two spark plugs it can't ignite the mixture eve ry time. It misses a few strokes then enough fuel has gathered that it ignit es and burns and then the cycle repeats. The carburetor nozzle was replaced a nd now the engine runs fine." > > > > > st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com > p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > eamGrumman-List"' href='mip://0a660e20/3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navig ator?TeamGrumman-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ='mip://0a660e20/3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronic s.com > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > n"' href='mip://0a660e20/3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http ://www.matronics.com/contribution > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:56 PM PST US From: "Dean M. White" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start Get rid of right mag - go with electronic ignition. Dean White (Tiger N81166) Edmonds, WA 98026 From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:20 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Engine won't start Today. Removed both mags from a customers plane and installed them in the Tiger. Started on 2 blades. That means the overhauled mags are AFU. At least we found ute problem. Gary Sent from my iPad On Mar 4, 2013, at 8:12 AM, BILL9725@AOL.COM wrote: They are selling off all merchandise and not replacing anything so I would assume no. Ustomers Bill In a message dated 3/4/2013 8:11:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att.net writes: Do you know if their website will continue? On Mar 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, BILL9725@AOL.COM wrote: Want to mention in case anyone has not heard, Sac Sky Ranch is closing the end of this month, March. Owner is retiring and sons do not want to continue business! Very sad and leaves a hole in choices for everyone. Bill Stigile In a message dated 3/4/2013 6:55:13 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 923te@att.net writes: Probably far fetched that this would apply here but Mike Busch's article in March 2013 Sport Aviation found a faulty Mag timing device that led to timing to be set too high causing hard starts and high CHT's Read it here starting on page 30 lower right corner http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201303/m3/Page.action?lm =1361855698000 &pg=32 Again grasping at straws but By chance did you check spark plug resistance? http://www.chanceaviation.com/resources/ChanceAviation-Tempest-SparkPlugC ard.pdf Sacramento Sky Ranch may have some insight on the last paragraph of this page http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng37.htm Where he points to the carb having too lean a mixture: "Nothing you do will fix it. Mag check -- engine coughs and sputters on left magneto. * Replace magneto - still rough * Check ignition harness - checks fine - still rough * Replace "P" lead - still rough So lets replace the harness "just in case" --Success engine runs fine. 10 hours later problem returns! One other item interest; can't lean engine, as soon as the mixture is pulled back the engine sputters. So what's the solution? The big hint here is the mixture control. It points to the carburetor and only the carburetor. But why just on the left magneto? Lets say you have crappy fuel atomization and fuel distribution. Not real bad, but just bad enough. With two spark plugs firing it ignites a leaner mixture and the engine runs fine. But lets impar the ignition system slightly by weakening it. Turn off 1 magneto and now try to ignite the mixture - it can't do it as well and the engine coughs and shudders. Lean out the mixture just slightly and now even with sparks flying out of two spark plugs it can't ignite the mixture every time. It misses a few strokes then enough fuel has gathered that it ignites and burns and then the cycle repeats. The carburetor nozzle was replaced and now the engine runs fine." st href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D eamGrumman-List"' href='mip://0a660e20/3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman- List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ='mip://0a660e20/3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matroni cs.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D n"' href='mip://0a660e20/3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http:// www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.