---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/11/13: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:17 PM - Re: Need 30 year update (Gary L Vogt) 2. 12:36 PM - Re: Need 30 year update (Dan Veeneman) 3. 07:59 PM - Re: Need 30 year update (cannuck) 4. 09:22 PM - Re: Need 30 year update (Gary L Vogt) 5. 09:22 PM - Re: Re: Need 30 year update (Gary L Vogt) 6. 09:30 PM - Re: Re: Need 30 year update (Bob Hodo) 7. 09:57 PM - Re: Need 30 year update (discover) 8. 10:09 PM - Re: Re: Need 30 year update (923TE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:23 PM PST US From: Gary L Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Need 30 year update Cannuck,,=0A=0AJudging by your spelling and grammar, I know who you aren't. -{smile} -=0A=0AEveryone quotes 75% power speeds and for the life of m e, I've never understood why. -I am either going to fly fast or land. - The only time I've gone for lowest possible fuel flow is when I can see I'l l be 30 minutes shy of fuel at my destination. -=0A=0AThat said, wide ope n throttle and 2950 rpm at 1000 msl and tweaking everything, I could squeez e 159-160 knots TAS out of my Tiger. -154 knots TAS was routine; at 2800 rpm. -The engine had a sweet spot at 2800 rpm. -I had my TIger to 17,80 0' and still climbing at 300 fpm on an average day. -Straight and level, TAS was 155 knots at 2650.=0A=0AA clean, light Tiger with a mid-time engine will do 144-146 knots TAS with no antennas or steps. -=0A=0AHorsepower i s the key. -Cleanliness is the key. -Lightness is the key. -=0AI had LyCon build a roller engine for a customer. -I let them do everything tha t was legal and would make power. -The engine cost $26,000+. -The resul t: 219 hp at 2700 rpm. And it wasn't even broken in. -=0A=0AForget the IO 390. -It's too big and too heavy. -Same with the 200 hp -C1C. -Beside s, my new cowling is so tight that the angle valve won't fit. -=0A=0AI'm working on an IO360, 180 hp, for my Tiger. -Constant speed prop. -Is it worth it? -I don't know. -I may not like like. -I will like FI and g etting rid of carb heat, however. -=0A=0AMT prop is not any faster, strai ght and level (climb and descent are in a different world entirely). -I'l l be using a Scimitar Hartzell prop. -=0A=0ABTW, Ken can build a 411 cubi c inch IO360; IO411. -Makes 240hp without even trying. -=0A=0A=0A______ __________________________=0A From: cannuck =0ATo: tea mgrumman-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 2:19 PM=0ASubje ct: TeamGrumman-List: Need 30 year update=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List messag e posted by: "cannuck" =0A=0ANot a typo, three zero, n ot three.=0A=0AI sold my Tiger (0449) 30 years ago.- I still have my Yank ee (0409), but it was parked in the trees 35 years ago, so that doesn't rea lly count.- I was one of the founding year members at AYA, but when surfi ng around to try to catch up to the AA5B world, I ran into this site - and it seems there is a bit of a mod-crazy crowd here (so I should feel right a t home).- So, if I ask some questions that make you wonder if I have been living under a rock for 3 decades, that is because I have been living unde r a rock for 3 decades.AA=0A=0AThere are a few specific things that have me very interested in finding out what has happened with AA5 mods.- When I left the fold, there was the A4K and original prop - and that was about it. - What little speed I could scrape up came from rigging, sealing cracks a nd seams, removing steps, keeping engine baffles tight, gutting the muffler and washing the bugs off.- I had a bit of a knack for doing extremely lo ng, very high altitude flights (even though my name is not here, someone co uld get my e-mail address, so I won't tell you HOW high) with it, and manag ed a 143 knot cruise @ 75% (on DME then) full fuel, solo.- I miss the eco nomy, speed, climb, ceiling, payload and reliability of that airplane in al l of the rented junk I have had to drive ever since.=0A=0AI always wanted a BIT more HP.- I see there are quite a number of people holding STCs to d iddle the engine room, including a 200HP/10:1 mod.- I do remember a one-o ff that had an 0-540 back in the day, but that was NOT a good solution to t he need.- So tell me:- why hasn't anyone shoved an IO-390 under the cow l yet?- Now THAT, with a custom carbon cowling and Powerflow exhaust woul d get my blood boiling.=0A=0AThen, there is that MT propeller.- Someone p lease tell me about it.- Is this thing variable speed?- Is it electric or hydraulic control?- What does it weigh?- What does it do for perform ance?- Their website is devoid of any useful information.=0A=0AThere seem s to be a lack of uptake on LoPresti WOW cowlings.- Seems like a lot of p otential COULD be had, but I seldom see them (nor the MT prop) on airplanes listed for sale.- These are common as dirt in the Comanche and Twinkie w orld.=0A=0AWhat realistically IS the "state of the art" for 75% cruise TAS today?=0A=0A--------=0AAA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARe ad this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p =========================0A - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Adm ===== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:37 PM PST US From: Dan Veeneman Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Need 30 year update On 3/11/2013 3:16 PM, Gary L Vogt wrote: > I'm working on an IO360, 180 hp, for my Tiger. This is something I haven't understood. Fuel injection has been standard in automobiles for decades now, eliminating the hassles with a carb and improving efficiency. Why isn't it more prevalent in single-engine airplanes? Is it just because the general aviation fleet is so old and doing the swap is too much (paper)work? Cheers, Dan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:18 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update From: "cannuck" Ned: thanks for the post. What exactly can be LEGALLY done with an 0-360 - or better yet IO-360 to optimize as you mentioned from Lycon?? I imagine Ken's 411 CID engine does not exist in the world of STC of PMA parts?? MOT up here is very touchy about these things. Dan: not only are the engines old, so is the technology of the approved hardware. while the regulatory burden is a giant PITA, watch the world of aero diesels for some much more current tech hitting the skies. -------- AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396063#396063 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:00 PM PST US From: Gary L Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Need 30 year update Dan . . . -it's even worse than that. -=0A=0AThe fuel injection on toda y's production aircraft engines is 1940s technology. -They atomize the mi xture with an annulus around the injector to entrain air as the fuel stream s by. -A similar set ca be found on old WWII fighter engines. -The 57 C orvette used a similar system but used a real injector nozzle. -=0A=0AGet ting a GPS installed can be months, or even years, worth of headaches. -E lectronics for fuel control? -Are you serious. -What happens during a s olar flare? -What happens when someone calls you on your iPhone. -Well, nothing. -But, you'll spend the better part of a large fortune getting i t approved. -=0A=0AGary=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Dan Veeneman =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com =0AS ent: Monday, March 11, 2013 12:36 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Need 30 year update=0A =0A=0AOn 3/11/2013 3:16 PM, Gary L Vogt wrote:=0A=0AI'm w orking on an IO360, 180 hp, for my Tiger.- =0A>=0AThis is something I hav en't understood.- Fuel injection has been=0A standard in automobiles f or decades now, eliminating the hassles=0A with a carb and improving eff iciency.- Why isn't it more prevalent=0A in single-engine airplanes? - Is it just because the general aviation=0A fleet is so old and doing ================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:47 PM PST US From: Gary L Vogt Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update I want to see direct injected gas engines.=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________ ___________=0A From: cannuck =0ATo: teamgrumman-list@m atronics.com =0ASent: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:58 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrumman -List: Re: Need 30 year update=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by : "cannuck" =0A=0ANed:- thanks for the post.- What exactly can be LEGALLY done with an 0-360 - or better yet IO-360 to optimi ze as you mentioned from Lycon??=0A=0AI imagine Ken's 411 CID engine does n ot exist in the world of STC of PMA parts??- MOT up here is very touchy a bout these things.=0A=0ADan:- not only are the engines old, so is the tec hnology of the approved hardware.- while the regulatory burden is a giant PITA, watch the world of aero diesels for some much more current tech hitt ing the skies.=0A=0A--------=0AAA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner=0A=0A=0A =0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtop =- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle ======== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:41 PM PST US From: Bob Hodo Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update I want to see Ned flying his tiger on 130 (comparable) octane compressed na tural gas that he compresses at home for about 79 cents per gasoline gallon equivalent, like in his truck.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0A From: Gary L Vogt =0ATo: "teamgrumman-list@ma tronics.com" =0ASent: Monday, March 11, 20 13 11:22 PM=0ASubject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update=0A =0A =0AI want to see direct injected gas engines.=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________ ______________=0A From: cannuck =0ATo: teamgrumman-lis t@matronics.com =0ASent: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:58 PM=0ASubject: TeamGrum man-List: Re: Need 30 year update=0A =0A--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "cannuck" =0A=0ANed:- thanks for the post.- W hat exactly can be LEGALLY done with an 0-360 - or better yet IO-360 to opt imize as you mentioned from Lycon??=0A=0AI imagine Ken's 411 CID engine doe s not exist in the world of STC of PMA parts??- MOT up here is very touch y about these things.=0A=0ADan:- not only are the engines old, so is the technology of the approved hardware.- while the regulatory burden is a gi ant PITA, watch the world of aero diesels for some much more current tech h itting the skies.=0A=0A--------=0AAA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner=0A=0A =0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/view ============= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:55 PM PST US Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update From: "discover" <923te@att.net> Hi Cannuck, This is Ned I haven't posted a response yet...just to clarify that was Gary...I think. Doesn't Canada have a category that you can put a Tiger into that allows you Canadians to treat it like our US experimentals? That's what I've been told anyway. Heh? If I were you that's what I'd do no question. I'd take an old Tiger put whatever power plant I liked in it, say like a 22:1 compression diesel and put Skyview or Advanced Aero glass EFIS in it add that carbon fiber 20 gallon equivalent CNG tank in the back then watch the autopilot fly taking off and landing while only burning around $20 for a couple hours flight..... Ned Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396069#396069 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:54 PM PST US From: 923TE <923te@att.net> Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update Me too;) On Mar 11, 2013, at 11:30 PM, Bob Hodo wrote: I want to see Ned flying his tiger on 130 (comparable) octane compressed nat ural gas that he compresses at home for about 79 cents per gasoline gallon e quivalent, like in his truck. From: Gary L Vogt Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 11:22 PM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update I want to see direct injected gas engines. From: cannuck Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 7:58 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Re: Need 30 year update Ned: thanks for the post. What exactly can be LEGALLY done with an 0-360 - or better yet IO-360 to optimize as you mentioned from Lycon?? I imagine Ken's 411 CID engine does not exist in the world of STC of PMA par ts?? MOT up here is very touchy about these things. Dan: not only are the engines old, so is the technology of the approved har dware. while the regulatory burden is a giant PITA, watch the world of aero diesels for some much more current tech hitting the skies. -------- AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=396063#396063 ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ========================== ======== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.