Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:33 AM - Re: Powerflow (FLYaDIVE)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Powerflow (Scott Boyce)
3. 07:30 AM - Re: Powerflow (Airport Bum)
4. 09:13 AM - Re: Powerflow (Jim Shafer)
5. 02:27 PM - Re: Powerflow (BILL9725@AOL.COM)
6. 04:01 PM - Re: Powerflow (A. Dennis Savarese)
Message 1
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Brock:
Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...
The Electronic Ignition.
Why?
1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more
efficiently.
2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a
fine wire plug.
3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an
improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to
repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop
Plus Install.
$6600!!!!
4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do
the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?
$6700!!!!
5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit
the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you
need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets
say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint
($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950
WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!
Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...
Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS
6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...
Don't believe my numbers collect your own.
Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
*Barry*
*=93Chop=92d Liver=94*
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow
> exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I
> imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think
> gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the
> exhaust I can start saving for the cowling.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Brock,
>
> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due t
o
> heat. Not sure if it's worth it.
>
> Gary
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>
> *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
>
>
> Hey Gary,
> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the
> ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
>
> ========================
> courier new,courier">* <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>*http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> ========================
===========cs.com*
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Message 2
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Which electronic ignition and how much?
On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Brock:
>
> Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...
> The Electronic Ignition.
> Why?
> 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it
more efficiently.
> 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or
a fine wire plug.
> 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an
improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to
repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new
prop Plus Install.
> $6600!!!!
> 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than
you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?
> $6700!!!!
> 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to
fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now
you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but
lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus
Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950
> WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!
>
> Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...
> Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS
>
> 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...
>
> Don't believe my numbers collect your own.
>
> Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
>
> Barry
>
> =93Chop=92d Liver=94
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow
exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I
imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think
gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the
exhaust I can start saving for the cowling.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>> Brock,
>>
>> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring
due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> From: Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>
>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
>>
>>
>> Hey Gary,
>> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is
the ceramic tip worth it? What is the point
com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =========
>> courier
new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> =========
>> cs.com
>> =========
>> matronics.com/contribution
>> =========
>>
>
>
> st"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet. Ele
ctro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary Vogt, E
xcel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others can help y
ou with install.
Kevin
On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce <tscott165@centurylink.net> wrote:
> Which electronic ignition and how much?
>
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
>> Brock:
>>
>> Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...
>> The Electronic Ignition.
>> Why?
>> 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more e
fficiently.
>> 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a f
ine wire plug.
>> 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an impr
ovement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to repitch y
our prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus Inst
all.
>> $6600!!!!
>> 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you d
o the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?
>> $6700!!!!
>> 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit
the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you ne
ed or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets say a
nother $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Pl
us Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950
>> WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!
>>
>> Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...
>> Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS
>>
>> 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...
>>
>> Don't believe my numbers collect your own.
>>
>> Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> =9CChop=99d Liver=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow exhau
st, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I imagine t
akes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the be
st bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can start
saving for the cowling.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brock,
>>>>
>>>> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due
to heat. Not sure if it's worth it.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> From: Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
>>>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Gary,
>>>> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the c
eramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" targe
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =========
>>>> courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
>>>> =========
>>>> cs.com
>>>> =========
>>>> matronics.com/contribution
>>>> =========
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis
t
>>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m
atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution
>>
>
>
>
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Message 4
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Hello,
I think it's great that Grumman owners have so many options for upgrading
and improving the performance on these fine aircraft.
Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual and
his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling each
individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the different
products available make sense for him or her. With that in mind, I'd like
to shed a little additional light on the topics raised by Brock, Dean and
Barry:
#1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel - AND - Both the Electronic
Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently. The
fine folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15%
improvement) while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a reduction in
fuel burn of 1.0 - 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the effective results are
very close to the same and both companies have had these stated gains
confirmed by hundreds of Customers.
#2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a benefit
of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I can also
state that there have never been any reports suggesting an increase in plug
fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow System.
#3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and again,
based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems installed / 300+
AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow, 2,500+ total systems
installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no longer any credible reason
to doubt either company's claims.
The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry pointed
out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the Power Flow System
for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five to seven hours of
installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00 plus four to six hours
of labor to install.
As to the increase in HP (and if you don't see it, Power Flow will give you
your money back) you by no means need to replace or even re-pitch your prop
to take advantage of it. First and foremost you can immediately use it
where it does the Grumman's the most good: in take-off and climb
performance. As I said above, these are fine aircraft. But who among us
hasn't been way too up close and personal with the trees at the far end of a
slightly too short runway? What is a shorter take-off roll (by about 300')
and a faster rate of climb (by 100 - 150 fpm) worth to you in those
situations?
Even at cruise altitude you don't need to re-pitch or replace the prop to
take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow - just throttle
back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while burning 1.0 - 1.5 gph
less avfuel. If you're a real speed demon and crave that last 3 - 5 knots
in airspeed, go ahead and take it. Unless you're already cruising with your
engine at redline rpm, the Power Flow System will give you an extra 50 - 100
rpm to play with. Each 100 rpm gets you an extra 5 knots of airspeed, and
you don't have to re-pitch the prop to get it.
We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those who
frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who are so
enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible by the Power
Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install a higher pitched
prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This is by no means a
requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is another option
available for you.
#4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it IS an
option (for those owners who take particular pride in the appearance of
their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the discoloration that
naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot doesn't bother you, there is
no need to spend the money. If it does bother you and you don't mind using
a little elbow grease, the discoloration can be easily wiped away with
common stainless steel polish.
#5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow's many fine
Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected "Grumman Guru's" like
FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth why a
Customer would have to live with an "ugly hole" in their cowling. Yes, our
system requires that a new hole be cut for the relocated exhaust pipe exit.
Gary, John, or David, or any one of Power Flow's several hundred Dealer's
nationwide (or even any reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the
existing hole all but disappear.
The assertion that relocating the tailpipe "may have ruined your cooling
airflow" is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt's tireless efforts and
determination, his beautiful "Jaguar" cowling is another excellent upgrade
available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is not a requirement for
the Power Flow System.
#6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you more
horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15% improvement in
fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 - 6 hours of installation labor.
The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you more horsepower (about 10
- 15 more), better take-off and climb performance, and a 1.0 - 2.0 gph
improvement in fuel economy for about $3,500.00 plus 5 - 7 hours of
installation labor.
I don't quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stretch into a
month of down time, but maybe that's just ole' math challenged me.
Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the
honest answer seems to be: "It all depends". I hope the facts outlined
above will help those who are interested in improving the performance of
their AA5 make that choice based on accurate information.
And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has Dean,
several very happy Customers have installed both STC'd upgrades on their
aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds.
All the Best!
- Jim Shafer
Power Flow Systems, Inc.
Ph: (877) 693-7356
Fax: (877) 570-9831
_____
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Airport
Bum
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet.
Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary
Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others can
help you with install.
Kevin
On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce <tscott165@centurylink.net> wrote:
Which electronic ignition and how much?
On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Brock:
Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...
The Electronic Ignition.
Why?
1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more
efficiently.
2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a fine
wire plug.
3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an
improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to
repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop
Plus Install.
$6600!!!!
4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do
the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?
$6700!!!!
5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit
the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you
need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets
say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint
($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950
WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!
Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...
Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS
6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...
Don't believe my numbers collect your own.
Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com> wrote:
I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow exhaust,
or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I imagine
takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the
best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can
start saving for the cowling.
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:
Brock,
Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due to
heat. Not sure if it's worth it.
Gary
_____
From: Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
Hey Gary,
What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the
ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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tp://forums.matronics.com
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Message 5
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HI Jim
I have been going over the Powerflow option with you for a couple of years
and just wanted you to know you will soon be having another customer. I am
having Gary do a Cowling and Powerflow for my tiger in the next month or
so and look forward to the great combination. The cowling is really a wor
k
of are, know how precise Gary it I could not pass up the idea.
By the way I recently installed the fine wire plugs with the standard mags
and they saved almost 1.00 gallon a hour for the same exhaust temps and of
course the engine runs a major % smoother. Although expensive, they really
could make up their cost in improved results.
But my question to you is, I don`t expect to still realize the Powerflow
fuel savings on top of this should I? My engine is a low time millennium
engine done just before they went under and is very strong even before we a
d
the Powerflow, I can be well over 10,000 ft and still have throttle left
compared to the original engine where full in at 9,000 in most cases. So
of
course I am considering re pitching the prop to take advantage of the
Powerflow and already strong engine. Any feed back on that combination of
the re
pitch prop and powerlfow?
Thanks and am glad to say I am finally getting to do the Powerflow, I very
much look forward to it getting done!.
Thanks
Bill Stigile
In a message dated 7/11/2013 9:13:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jim@powerflowsystems.com writes:
Hello,
I think it=99s great that Grumman owners have so many options for up
grading
and improving the performance on these fine aircraft.
Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual and
his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling each
individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the different produ
cts
available make sense for him or her. With that in mind, I=99d like
to shed a
little additional light on the topics raised by Brock, Dean and Barry:
#1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel =93 AND - Both the Electro
nic
Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently. The
fine
folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15% improvement)
while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a reduction in fuel burn of
1.0 =93 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the effective results are ver
y close
to the same and both companies have had these stated gains confirmed by
hundreds of Customers.
#2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a
benefit of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I can
also
state that there have never been any reports suggesting an increase in plu
g
fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow System.
#3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and
again, based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems installe
d /
300+ AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow, 2,500+ total systems
installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no longer any credible reas
on
to doubt either company=99s claims.
The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry pointed
out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the Power Flow Syste
m
for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five to seven hours of
installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00 plus four to six hours
of
labor to install.
As to the increase in HP (and if you don=99t see it, Power Flow will
give
you your money back) you by no means need to replace or even re-pitch your
prop to take advantage of it. First and foremost you can immediately use
it
where it does the Grumman=99s the most good: in take-off and climb
performance. As I said above, these are fine aircraft. But who among us
hasn=99t been
way too up close and personal with the trees at the far end of a slightly
too short runway? What is a shorter take-off roll (by about 300=99)
and a
faster rate of climb (by 100 =93 150 fpm) worth to you in those sit
uations?
Even at cruise altitude you don=99t need to re-pitch or replace the
prop to
take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow =93 jus
t
throttle back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while burning 1.
0 =93 1.5
gph less avfuel. If you=99re a real speed demon and crave that last
3 =93 5
knots in airspeed, go ahead and take it. Unless you=99re already cr
uising
with your engine at redline rpm, the Power Flow System will give you an ex
tra
50 =93 100 rpm to play with. Each 100 rpm gets you an extra 5 knots
of
airspeed, and you don=99t have to re-pitch the prop to get it.
We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those who
frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who are so
enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible by the Power
Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install a higher pitched
prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This is by no means a
requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is another option avail
able
for you.
#4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it IS
an option (for those owners who take particular pride in the appearance of
their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the discoloration that
naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot doesn=99t bother you,
there is no
need to spend the money. If it does bother you and you don=99t mind
using a
little elbow grease, the discoloration can be easily wiped away with commo
n
stainless steel polish.
#5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow=99s many f
ine
Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected =9CGrumman Guru
=99s=9D like
FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth why a Custo
mer
would have to live with an =9Cugly hole=9D in their cowling.
Yes, our system
requires that a new hole be cut for the relocated exhaust pipe exit. Gary
,
John, or David, or any one of Power Flow=99s several hundred Dealer
=99s
nationwide (or even any reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the exis
ting
hole all but disappear.
The assertion that relocating the tailpipe =9Cmay have ruined your c
ooling
airflow=9D is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt=99s tireless eff
orts and
determination, his beautiful =9CJaguar=9D cowling is another e
xcellent upgrade
available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is not a requirement for
the
Power Flow System.
#6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you
more horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15% improvem
ent
in fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 =93 6 hours of installati
on labor.
The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you more horsepower (about
10 =93 15 more), better take-off and climb performance, and a 1.0
=93 2.0 gph
improvement in fuel economy for about $3,500.00 plus 5 =93 7 hours o
f
installation labor.
I don=99t quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stre
tch into
a month of down time, but maybe that=99s just ole=99 math chal
lenged me.
Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the
honest answer seems to be: =9CIt all depends=9D. I hope the f
acts outlined
above will help those who are interested in improving the performance of t
heir
AA5 make that choice based on accurate information.
And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has Dean,
several very happy Customers have installed both STC=99d upgrades on
their
aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds.
All the Best!
- Jim Shafer
Power Flow Systems, Inc.
Ph: (877) 693-7356
Fax: (877) 570-9831
____________________________________
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Airport B
um
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet.
Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary
Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others c
an
help you with install.
Kevin
On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce <_tscott165@centurylink.net_
(mailto:tscott165@centurylink.net) > wrote:
Which electronic ignition and how much?
On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Brock:
Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...
The Electronic Ignition.
Why?
1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more
efficiently.
2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a
fine wire plug.
3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an
improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to rep
itch
your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus
Install.
$6600!!!!
4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do
the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?
$6700!!!!
5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit
the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you
need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets
say
another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500)
Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950
WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!
Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...
Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS
6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...
Don't believe my numbers collect your own.
Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
Barry
=9CChop=99d Liver=9D
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <_n2_narcosis@yahoo.com_
(mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com) > wrote:
I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow
exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I i
magine
takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the
best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can
start saving for the cowling.
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <_teamgrumman@yahoo.com_
(mailto:teamgrumman@yahoo.com) > wrote:
Brock,
Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due to
heat. Not sure if it's worth it.
Gary
____________________________________
From: Brock <_n2_narcosis@yahoo.com_ (mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com) >
(mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com) " <_teamgrumman-list@matronics.com_
(mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com) >
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
(mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com) >
Hey Gary,
What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the
ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
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Of all the Grumman's that could benefit the most from the Powerflow
exhaust, it would be the O235 powered AA1x's. I for one would be THE
first to order it if it were available. I would even volunteer my
airplane for design and testing if Powerflow would consider building the
exhaust for O235's.
The Powerflow exhaust would provide the performance that caused many
people to decide to make the engine upgrade to the O320. The detriment
of the O320 upgrade is, after the upgrade, with only 22 gallons of
useable fuel, the range is decreased due to the increase in fuel burn
over the O235. But more importantly (and this is why I did not buy an
O320 powered AA1A that I REALLY wanted. It was BEAUTIFUL and well
maintained airplane).....the useful load was reduced to 433 lbs with the
O320 upgrade. With full fuel (22 gallons), it was a 1 and 1/2 person
airplane. Not only is the engine heavier, but the prop is heavier, the
nose strut is heavier because it must be changed as well and a
larger/heavier battery is also required.
A PowerFlow exhaust would dramatically change the dynamics of any AA1x
that had it installed AND for a minimal amount of money compared to the
O320 engine upgrade and STC costs. And we would get to keep our useful
load pretty close to what it is presently. That is another major benefit.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
'74 AA1B 08A
On 7/11/2013 11:09 AM, Jim Shafer wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I think it's great that Grumman owners have so many options for
> upgrading and improving the performance on these fine aircraft.
>
> Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual
> and his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling
> each individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the
> different products available make sense for him or her. With that in
> mind, I'd like to shed a little additional light on the topics raised
> by Brock, Dean and Barry:
>
> #1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel -- AND - Both the Electronic
> Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently.
> The fine folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15%
> improvement) while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a
> reduction in fuel burn of 1.0 -- 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the
> effective results are very close to the same and both companies have
> had these stated gains confirmed by hundreds of Customers.
>
> #2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a
> benefit of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I
> can also state that there have never been any reports suggesting an
> increase in plug fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow
> System.
>
> #3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and
> again, based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems
> installed / 300+ AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow,
> 2,500+ total systems installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no
> longer any credible reason to doubt either company's claims.
>
> The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry
> pointed out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the
> Power Flow System for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five
> to seven hours of installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00
> plus four to six hours of labor to install.
>
> As to the increase in HP (and if you don't see it, Power Flow will
> give you your money back) you by no means need to replace or even
> re-pitch your prop to take advantage of it. First and foremost you
> can immediately use it where it does the Grumman's the most good: in
> take-off and climb performance. As I said above, these are fine
> aircraft. But who among us hasn't been way too up close and personal
> with the trees at the far end of a slightly too short runway? What is
> a shorter take-off roll (by about 300') and a faster rate of climb (by
> 100 -- 150 fpm) worth to you in those situations?
>
> Even at cruise altitude you don't need to re-pitch or replace the prop
> to take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow --
> just throttle back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while
> burning 1.0 -- 1.5 gph less avfuel. If you're a real speed demon and
> crave that last 3 -- 5 knots in airspeed, go ahead and take it.
> Unless you're already cruising with your engine at redline rpm, the
> Power Flow System will give you an extra 50 -- 100 rpm to play with.
> Each 100 rpm gets you an extra 5 knots of airspeed, and you don't
> have to re-pitch the prop to get it.
>
> We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those
> who frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who
> are so enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible
> by the Power Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install
> a higher pitched prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This
> is by no means a requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is
> another option available for you.
>
> #4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it
> IS an option (for those owners who take particular pride in the
> appearance of their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the
> discoloration that naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot
> doesn't bother you, there is no need to spend the money. If it does
> bother you and you don't mind using a little elbow grease, the
> discoloration can be easily wiped away with common stainless steel polish.
>
> #5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow's many fine
> Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected "Grumman Guru's"
> like FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth
> why a Customer would have to live with an "ugly hole" in their
> cowling. Yes, our system requires that a new hole be cut for the
> relocated exhaust pipe exit. Gary, John, or David, or any one of
> Power Flow's several hundred Dealer's nationwide (or even any
> reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the existing hole all but
> disappear.
>
> The assertion that relocating the tailpipe "may have ruined your
> cooling airflow" is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt's tireless
> efforts and determination, his beautiful "Jaguar" cowling is another
> excellent upgrade available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is
> not a requirement for the Power Flow System.
>
> #6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you
> more horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15%
> improvement in fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 -- 6 hours of
> installation labor. The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you
> more horsepower (about 10 -- 15 more), better take-off and climb
> performance, and a 1.0 -- 2.0 gph improvement in fuel economy for
> about $3,500.00 plus 5 -- 7 hours of installation labor.
>
> I don't quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stretch
> into a month of down time, but maybe that's just ole' math challenged me.
>
> Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the
> honest answer seems to be: "It all depends". I hope the facts
> outlined above will help those who are interested in improving the
> performance of their AA5 make that choice based on accurate information.
>
> And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has
> Dean, several very happy Customers have installed both STC'd upgrades
> on their aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds.
>
> All the Best!
>
> - Jim Shafer
>
> Power Flow Systems, Inc.
>
> Ph: (877) 693-7356
>
> Fax: (877) 570-9831
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Airport Bum
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
>
> Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the
> fleet. Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken
> Blackman, Gary Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or
> one of the others can help you with install.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce <tscott165@centurylink.net
> <mailto:tscott165@centurylink.net>> wrote:
>
>> Which electronic ignition and how much?
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Brock:
>>
>> Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...
>>
>> The Electronic Ignition.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it
>> more efficiently.
>>
>> 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or
>> a fine wire plug.
>>
>> 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an
>> improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need
>> to repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a
>> new prop Plus Install.
>>
>> $6600!!!!
>>
>> 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than
>> you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?
>>
>> $6700!!!!
>>
>> 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to
>> fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO
>> now you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't
>> recall but lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install
>> ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals
>> === $7950
>>
>> WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!
>>
>> Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...
>>
>> Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS
>>
>> 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...
>>
>> Don't believe my numbers collect your own.
>>
>> Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
>>
>> *Barry*
>>
>> *"Chop'd Liver"*
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow
>> exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper,
>> but I imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do
>> you think gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If
>> I get the exhaust I can start saving for the cowling.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>
>> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:teamgrumman@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Brock,
>>>
>>> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring
>>> due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:*Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com <mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>>
>>> *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>"
>>> <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
>>> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>>
>>>
>>> Hey Gary,
>>> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is
>>> the ceramic tip worth it? What is the point
>>> com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>>
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>>>
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