---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/11/13: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:33 AM - Re: Powerflow (FLYaDIVE) 2. 06:53 AM - Re: Powerflow (Scott Boyce) 3. 07:30 AM - Re: Powerflow (Airport Bum) 4. 09:13 AM - Re: Powerflow (Jim Shafer) 5. 02:27 PM - Re: Powerflow (BILL9725@AOL.COM) 6. 04:01 PM - Re: Powerflow (A. Dennis Savarese) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow From: FLYaDIVE Brock: Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS... The Electronic Ignition. Why? 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more efficiently. 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a fine wire plug. 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus Install. $6600!!!! 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100? $6700!!!! 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950 WHAT $7950!!!! !!!! Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650... Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying... Don't believe my numbers collect your own. Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! ! *Barry* *=93Chop=92d Liver=94* On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock wrote: > I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow > exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I > imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think > gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the > exhaust I can start saving for the cowling. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote: > > Brock, > > Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due t o > heat. Not sure if it's worth it. > > Gary > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Brock > *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM > *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow > > > Hey Gary, > What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the > ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= --> > > > > > > > > > * > > ======================== > courier new,courier">* *http://www .matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > ======================== ===========cs.com* > ======================== ===========matronics.com/contribution > ======================== > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:38 AM PST US From: Scott Boyce Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow Which electronic ignition and how much? On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Brock: > > Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS... > The Electronic Ignition. > Why? > 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more efficiently. > 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a fine wire plug. > 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus Install. > $6600!!!! > 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100? > $6700!!!! > 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950 > WHAT $7950!!!! !!!! > > Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650... > Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS > > 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying... > > Don't believe my numbers collect your own. > > Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! ! > > Barry > > =93Chop=92d Liver=94 > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock wrote: > I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can start saving for the cowling. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote: > >> Brock, >> >> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it. >> >> Gary >> >> From: Brock >> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" >> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM >> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow >> >> >> Hey Gary, >> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= --> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========= >> courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> ========= >> cs.com >> ========= >> matronics.com/contribution >> ========= >> > > > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow From: Airport Bum Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet. Ele ctro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary Vogt, E xcel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others can help y ou with install. Kevin On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce wrote: > Which electronic ignition and how much? > > On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> Brock: >> >> Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS... >> The Electronic Ignition. >> Why? >> 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more e fficiently. >> 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a f ine wire plug. >> 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an impr ovement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to repitch y our prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus Inst all. >> $6600!!!! >> 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you d o the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100? >> $6700!!!! >> 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you ne ed or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets say a nother $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Pl us Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950 >> WHAT $7950!!!! !!!! >> >> Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650... >> Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS >> >> 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying... >> >> Don't believe my numbers collect your own. >> >> Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! ! >> >> Barry >> >> =9CChop=99d Liver=9D >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock wrote: >>> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow exhau st, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I imagine t akes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the be st bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can start saving for the cowling. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote: >>> >>>> Brock, >>>> >>>> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it. >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> From: Brock >>>> To: "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM >>>> Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow >>>> >>>> >>>> Hey Gary, >>>> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the c eramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" targe t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= --> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ========= >>>> courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis t >>>> ========= >>>> cs.com >>>> ========= >>>> matronics.com/contribution >>>> ========= >>>> >>> >>> >>> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lis t >>> tp://forums.matronics.com >>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution >> > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:30 AM PST US From: "Jim Shafer" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow Hello, I think it's great that Grumman owners have so many options for upgrading and improving the performance on these fine aircraft. Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual and his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling each individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the different products available make sense for him or her. With that in mind, I'd like to shed a little additional light on the topics raised by Brock, Dean and Barry: #1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel - AND - Both the Electronic Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently. The fine folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15% improvement) while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a reduction in fuel burn of 1.0 - 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the effective results are very close to the same and both companies have had these stated gains confirmed by hundreds of Customers. #2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a benefit of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I can also state that there have never been any reports suggesting an increase in plug fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow System. #3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and again, based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems installed / 300+ AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow, 2,500+ total systems installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no longer any credible reason to doubt either company's claims. The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry pointed out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the Power Flow System for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five to seven hours of installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00 plus four to six hours of labor to install. As to the increase in HP (and if you don't see it, Power Flow will give you your money back) you by no means need to replace or even re-pitch your prop to take advantage of it. First and foremost you can immediately use it where it does the Grumman's the most good: in take-off and climb performance. As I said above, these are fine aircraft. But who among us hasn't been way too up close and personal with the trees at the far end of a slightly too short runway? What is a shorter take-off roll (by about 300') and a faster rate of climb (by 100 - 150 fpm) worth to you in those situations? Even at cruise altitude you don't need to re-pitch or replace the prop to take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow - just throttle back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while burning 1.0 - 1.5 gph less avfuel. If you're a real speed demon and crave that last 3 - 5 knots in airspeed, go ahead and take it. Unless you're already cruising with your engine at redline rpm, the Power Flow System will give you an extra 50 - 100 rpm to play with. Each 100 rpm gets you an extra 5 knots of airspeed, and you don't have to re-pitch the prop to get it. We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those who frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who are so enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible by the Power Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install a higher pitched prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This is by no means a requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is another option available for you. #4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it IS an option (for those owners who take particular pride in the appearance of their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the discoloration that naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot doesn't bother you, there is no need to spend the money. If it does bother you and you don't mind using a little elbow grease, the discoloration can be easily wiped away with common stainless steel polish. #5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow's many fine Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected "Grumman Guru's" like FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth why a Customer would have to live with an "ugly hole" in their cowling. Yes, our system requires that a new hole be cut for the relocated exhaust pipe exit. Gary, John, or David, or any one of Power Flow's several hundred Dealer's nationwide (or even any reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the existing hole all but disappear. The assertion that relocating the tailpipe "may have ruined your cooling airflow" is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt's tireless efforts and determination, his beautiful "Jaguar" cowling is another excellent upgrade available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is not a requirement for the Power Flow System. #6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you more horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15% improvement in fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 - 6 hours of installation labor. The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you more horsepower (about 10 - 15 more), better take-off and climb performance, and a 1.0 - 2.0 gph improvement in fuel economy for about $3,500.00 plus 5 - 7 hours of installation labor. I don't quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stretch into a month of down time, but maybe that's just ole' math challenged me. Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the honest answer seems to be: "It all depends". I hope the facts outlined above will help those who are interested in improving the performance of their AA5 make that choice based on accurate information. And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has Dean, several very happy Customers have installed both STC'd upgrades on their aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds. All the Best! - Jim Shafer Power Flow Systems, Inc. Ph: (877) 693-7356 Fax: (877) 570-9831 _____ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Airport Bum Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet. Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others can help you with install. Kevin On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce wrote: Which electronic ignition and how much? On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Brock: Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS... The Electronic Ignition. Why? 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more efficiently. 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a fine wire plug. 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus Install. $6600!!!! 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100? $6700!!!! 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950 WHAT $7950!!!! !!!! Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650... Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying... Don't believe my numbers collect your own. Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! ! Barry "Chop'd Liver" On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock wrote: I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can start saving for the cowling. Sent from my iPad On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt wrote: Brock, Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it. Gary _____ From: Brock Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow Hey Gary, What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= --> ========= courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution ================================== t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ================================== cs.com ================================== matronics.com/contribution ================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:50 PM PST US From: BILL9725@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow HI Jim I have been going over the Powerflow option with you for a couple of years and just wanted you to know you will soon be having another customer. I am having Gary do a Cowling and Powerflow for my tiger in the next month or so and look forward to the great combination. The cowling is really a wor k of are, know how precise Gary it I could not pass up the idea. By the way I recently installed the fine wire plugs with the standard mags and they saved almost 1.00 gallon a hour for the same exhaust temps and of course the engine runs a major % smoother. Although expensive, they really could make up their cost in improved results. But my question to you is, I don`t expect to still realize the Powerflow fuel savings on top of this should I? My engine is a low time millennium engine done just before they went under and is very strong even before we a d the Powerflow, I can be well over 10,000 ft and still have throttle left compared to the original engine where full in at 9,000 in most cases. So of course I am considering re pitching the prop to take advantage of the Powerflow and already strong engine. Any feed back on that combination of the re pitch prop and powerlfow? Thanks and am glad to say I am finally getting to do the Powerflow, I very much look forward to it getting done!. Thanks Bill Stigile In a message dated 7/11/2013 9:13:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jim@powerflowsystems.com writes: Hello, I think it=99s great that Grumman owners have so many options for up grading and improving the performance on these fine aircraft. Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual and his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling each individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the different produ cts available make sense for him or her. With that in mind, I=99d like to shed a little additional light on the topics raised by Brock, Dean and Barry: #1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel =93 AND - Both the Electro nic Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently. The fine folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15% improvement) while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a reduction in fuel burn of 1.0 =93 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the effective results are ver y close to the same and both companies have had these stated gains confirmed by hundreds of Customers. #2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a benefit of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I can also state that there have never been any reports suggesting an increase in plu g fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow System. #3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and again, based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems installe d / 300+ AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow, 2,500+ total systems installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no longer any credible reas on to doubt either company=99s claims. The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry pointed out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the Power Flow Syste m for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five to seven hours of installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00 plus four to six hours of labor to install. As to the increase in HP (and if you don=99t see it, Power Flow will give you your money back) you by no means need to replace or even re-pitch your prop to take advantage of it. First and foremost you can immediately use it where it does the Grumman=99s the most good: in take-off and climb performance. As I said above, these are fine aircraft. But who among us hasn=99t been way too up close and personal with the trees at the far end of a slightly too short runway? What is a shorter take-off roll (by about 300=99) and a faster rate of climb (by 100 =93 150 fpm) worth to you in those sit uations? Even at cruise altitude you don=99t need to re-pitch or replace the prop to take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow =93 jus t throttle back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while burning 1. 0 =93 1.5 gph less avfuel. If you=99re a real speed demon and crave that last 3 =93 5 knots in airspeed, go ahead and take it. Unless you=99re already cr uising with your engine at redline rpm, the Power Flow System will give you an ex tra 50 =93 100 rpm to play with. Each 100 rpm gets you an extra 5 knots of airspeed, and you don=99t have to re-pitch the prop to get it. We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those who frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who are so enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible by the Power Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install a higher pitched prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This is by no means a requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is another option avail able for you. #4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it IS an option (for those owners who take particular pride in the appearance of their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the discoloration that naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot doesn=99t bother you, there is no need to spend the money. If it does bother you and you don=99t mind using a little elbow grease, the discoloration can be easily wiped away with commo n stainless steel polish. #5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow=99s many f ine Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected =9CGrumman Guru =99s=9D like FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth why a Custo mer would have to live with an =9Cugly hole=9D in their cowling. Yes, our system requires that a new hole be cut for the relocated exhaust pipe exit. Gary , John, or David, or any one of Power Flow=99s several hundred Dealer =99s nationwide (or even any reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the exis ting hole all but disappear. The assertion that relocating the tailpipe =9Cmay have ruined your c ooling airflow=9D is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt=99s tireless eff orts and determination, his beautiful =9CJaguar=9D cowling is another e xcellent upgrade available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is not a requirement for the Power Flow System. #6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you more horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15% improvem ent in fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 =93 6 hours of installati on labor. The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you more horsepower (about 10 =93 15 more), better take-off and climb performance, and a 1.0 =93 2.0 gph improvement in fuel economy for about $3,500.00 plus 5 =93 7 hours o f installation labor. I don=99t quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stre tch into a month of down time, but maybe that=99s just ole=99 math chal lenged me. Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the honest answer seems to be: =9CIt all depends=9D. I hope the f acts outlined above will help those who are interested in improving the performance of t heir AA5 make that choice based on accurate information. And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has Dean, several very happy Customers have installed both STC=99d upgrades on their aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds. All the Best! - Jim Shafer Power Flow Systems, Inc. Ph: (877) 693-7356 Fax: (877) 570-9831 ____________________________________ From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Airport B um Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet. Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others c an help you with install. Kevin On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce <_tscott165@centurylink.net_ (mailto:tscott165@centurylink.net) > wrote: Which electronic ignition and how much? On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: Brock: Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS... The Electronic Ignition. Why? 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more efficiently. 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a fine wire plug. 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to rep itch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new prop Plus Install. $6600!!!! 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100? $6700!!!! 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950 WHAT $7950!!!! !!!! Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650... Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying... Don't believe my numbers collect your own. Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! ! Barry =9CChop=99d Liver=9D On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <_n2_narcosis@yahoo.com_ (mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com) > wrote: I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I i magine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the exhaust I can start saving for the cowling. Sent from my iPad On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <_teamgrumman@yahoo.com_ (mailto:teamgrumman@yahoo.com) > wrote: Brock, Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it. Gary ____________________________________ From: Brock <_n2_narcosis@yahoo.com_ (mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com) > (mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com) " <_teamgrumman-list@matronics.com_ (mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com) > Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow (mailto:n2_narcosis@yahoo.com) > Hey Gary, What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= --> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) _==========_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) _courier new,courier">_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========= _cs.com_ (http://cs.com/) ========= _matronics.com/contribution_ (http://matronics.com/contribution) ========= st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List _tp://forums.matronics.com_ (tp://forums.matronics.com/) _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.mat ron ics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con tri bution ========= t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List ========= cs.com ========= matronics.com/contribution ========= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:29 PM PST US From: "A. Dennis Savarese" Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow Of all the Grumman's that could benefit the most from the Powerflow exhaust, it would be the O235 powered AA1x's. I for one would be THE first to order it if it were available. I would even volunteer my airplane for design and testing if Powerflow would consider building the exhaust for O235's. The Powerflow exhaust would provide the performance that caused many people to decide to make the engine upgrade to the O320. The detriment of the O320 upgrade is, after the upgrade, with only 22 gallons of useable fuel, the range is decreased due to the increase in fuel burn over the O235. But more importantly (and this is why I did not buy an O320 powered AA1A that I REALLY wanted. It was BEAUTIFUL and well maintained airplane).....the useful load was reduced to 433 lbs with the O320 upgrade. With full fuel (22 gallons), it was a 1 and 1/2 person airplane. Not only is the engine heavier, but the prop is heavier, the nose strut is heavier because it must be changed as well and a larger/heavier battery is also required. A PowerFlow exhaust would dramatically change the dynamics of any AA1x that had it installed AND for a minimal amount of money compared to the O320 engine upgrade and STC costs. And we would get to keep our useful load pretty close to what it is presently. That is another major benefit. Dennis A. Dennis Savarese '74 AA1B 08A On 7/11/2013 11:09 AM, Jim Shafer wrote: > > Hello, > > I think it's great that Grumman owners have so many options for > upgrading and improving the performance on these fine aircraft. > > Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual > and his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling > each individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the > different products available make sense for him or her. With that in > mind, I'd like to shed a little additional light on the topics raised > by Brock, Dean and Barry: > > #1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel -- AND - Both the Electronic > Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently. > The fine folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15% > improvement) while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a > reduction in fuel burn of 1.0 -- 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the > effective results are very close to the same and both companies have > had these stated gains confirmed by hundreds of Customers. > > #2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a > benefit of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I > can also state that there have never been any reports suggesting an > increase in plug fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow > System. > > #3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and > again, based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems > installed / 300+ AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow, > 2,500+ total systems installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no > longer any credible reason to doubt either company's claims. > > The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry > pointed out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the > Power Flow System for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five > to seven hours of installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00 > plus four to six hours of labor to install. > > As to the increase in HP (and if you don't see it, Power Flow will > give you your money back) you by no means need to replace or even > re-pitch your prop to take advantage of it. First and foremost you > can immediately use it where it does the Grumman's the most good: in > take-off and climb performance. As I said above, these are fine > aircraft. But who among us hasn't been way too up close and personal > with the trees at the far end of a slightly too short runway? What is > a shorter take-off roll (by about 300') and a faster rate of climb (by > 100 -- 150 fpm) worth to you in those situations? > > Even at cruise altitude you don't need to re-pitch or replace the prop > to take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow -- > just throttle back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while > burning 1.0 -- 1.5 gph less avfuel. If you're a real speed demon and > crave that last 3 -- 5 knots in airspeed, go ahead and take it. > Unless you're already cruising with your engine at redline rpm, the > Power Flow System will give you an extra 50 -- 100 rpm to play with. > Each 100 rpm gets you an extra 5 knots of airspeed, and you don't > have to re-pitch the prop to get it. > > We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those > who frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who > are so enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible > by the Power Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install > a higher pitched prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This > is by no means a requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is > another option available for you. > > #4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it > IS an option (for those owners who take particular pride in the > appearance of their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the > discoloration that naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot > doesn't bother you, there is no need to spend the money. If it does > bother you and you don't mind using a little elbow grease, the > discoloration can be easily wiped away with common stainless steel polish. > > #5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow's many fine > Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected "Grumman Guru's" > like FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth > why a Customer would have to live with an "ugly hole" in their > cowling. Yes, our system requires that a new hole be cut for the > relocated exhaust pipe exit. Gary, John, or David, or any one of > Power Flow's several hundred Dealer's nationwide (or even any > reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the existing hole all but > disappear. > > The assertion that relocating the tailpipe "may have ruined your > cooling airflow" is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt's tireless > efforts and determination, his beautiful "Jaguar" cowling is another > excellent upgrade available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is > not a requirement for the Power Flow System. > > #6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you > more horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15% > improvement in fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 -- 6 hours of > installation labor. The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you > more horsepower (about 10 -- 15 more), better take-off and climb > performance, and a 1.0 -- 2.0 gph improvement in fuel economy for > about $3,500.00 plus 5 -- 7 hours of installation labor. > > I don't quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stretch > into a month of down time, but maybe that's just ole' math challenged me. > > Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the > honest answer seems to be: "It all depends". I hope the facts > outlined above will help those who are interested in improving the > performance of their AA5 make that choice based on accurate information. > > And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has > Dean, several very happy Customers have installed both STC'd upgrades > on their aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds. > > All the Best! > > - Jim Shafer > > Power Flow Systems, Inc. > > Ph: (877) 693-7356 > > Fax: (877) 570-9831 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Airport Bum > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM > *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow > > Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the > fleet. Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken > Blackman, Gary Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or > one of the others can help you with install. > > Kevin > > > On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce > wrote: > >> Which electronic ignition and how much? >> >> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> >> >> >> Brock: >> >> Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS... >> >> The Electronic Ignition. >> >> Why? >> >> 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it >> more efficiently. >> >> 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or >> a fine wire plug. >> >> 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an >> improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need >> to repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a >> new prop Plus Install. >> >> $6600!!!! >> >> 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than >> you do the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100? >> >> $6700!!!! >> >> 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to >> fit the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO >> now you need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't >> recall but lets say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install >> ($3500) Plus Paint ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals >> === $7950 >> >> WHAT $7950!!!! !!!! >> >> Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650... >> >> Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS >> >> 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying... >> >> Don't believe my numbers collect your own. >> >> Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! ! >> >> *Barry* >> >> *"Chop'd Liver"* >> >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock > > wrote: >> >> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow >> exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, >> but I imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do >> you think gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If >> I get the exhaust I can start saving for the cowling. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt > > wrote: >> >>> Brock, >>> >>> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring >>> due to heat. Not sure if it's worth it. >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:*Brock > >>> *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com >>> " >>> >> > >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM >>> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> Hey Gary, >>> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is >>> the ceramic tip worth it? What is the point >>> com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" >>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= --> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ** >>> *_ _* >>> *_========== _* >>> *_courier new,courier"> _**http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List* >>> *==========* >>> *cs.com * >>> ========= >>> matronics.com/contribution >>> ========= >>> >> * * >> * * >> *st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List* >> *tp://forums.matronics.com* >> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* >> * * >> >> * * >> * * >> *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List* >> *href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com* >> *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* >> * * >> >> * * >> * * >> *===================================* >> *t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List* >> *===================================* >> *cs.com* >> *===================================* >> *matronics.com/contribution* >> *===================================* >> * * > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List* > ** > ** > *http://forums.matronics.com* > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * > > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.