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1. 06:41 AM - Re: Powerflow (FLYaDIVE)
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Jim:
I would purchase a PF System in very short order and I'm planning to, as
long as two things existed:
a> I needed a new muffler - I just can't see* removing a working muffler to
replace it with a working muffler. *
*b> I had/have the excess cash to to the job.*
*From these statements you should surely surmise I am not free flowing with
cash and I made my suggestions/statements from the question posted in the
email.** The question was: "*Which do you think gives the best bang for the
buck, exhaust or ignition?"
This indicates to me the fellow also holds his money in deep regard and is
not too frivolous - We all are frivolous to a small extent, just because we
have planes - But that does not mean we have to have MMTB (More Money Than
Brains). And...
b> What truly will give the most for the investment.
The PF System is an EXTRA it is not a Safety Investment nor is it something
that will stop one from flying.
If it is 22:00 Hrs (DARK) and you are at an airport that has no services
avail what is your major concern - OTHER THAN WEATHER ... WILL THE ENGINE
START?
A PF System does nothing to ensure that.
A electronic ignition SURE DOES!
> It gives you a hotter spark.
> It gives you cleaner plugs. <-- And that is whether you use the REM40's,
the Better REM37BY's or the Best Fine Wire. An upgrade in plugs is NOT
required, but sure will help. I was misstated by someone that had the idea
I was making it a mandatory action to upgrade spark plugs because of the
electronic ignition.
> It gives you a TIMED spark especially at altitude where the
Mag efficiency drops off. <-- Electronic Ignition has Vacuum Advance.
I have flown behind the ElectroAir EXPERIMENTAL system for years and the
system and support of the company has always been phenomenal. I am NOT
pushing ElectroAir is it just the company I have experience with; both as a
company and the product. Let me also add I do not have ANY experience with
the STC version of their product. I sure hope it is as good as the
Experimental version and if it is - - - FINALLY - - - A tested and proven
product for us GA Aircraft owners - That I know to work.
Now to address your items:
Your #1 - They give Percentage - PF gives Usage. It is your advertizing
that stinks not the product. How can PF say it gives you 1 to 2 GPH
savings when you don't know the engine being used?
Example; An O-320 which is rated at 150 HP and on mine shows 8 GPH in S&L
in full rich at 2400 RPM at an altitude around 2500 to 3000 Ft... With
your numbers I would be burning 1 to 2 GPH less... That is 6 GPH to 7 GPH
at the same settings. Now here is where we have to get a little scientific
and I hope this does not turn people away.
There is a basic term that is used engine industry wide and is Brake
Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC). Here is a link for explaination:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption
What you want to look at is the formula: Lbs/Hr/HP
Which is Pounds of fuel burned / Per Hours / Per Horsepower of the engine.
There is a range for the number of pounds AND remember it is in pounds so
for most users (US), for it to make sense the Lbs has to converted to GPH.
The range is 0.4 to 0.5Lbs/Hr/HP - - - So split the difference and use
0.45... 0.45x1Hrx150HPx75% Power = 8.4375 GPH pretty damn close to what I
am reading on my FP5L fuel flow gauge. So working backwards my 8 GPH
equates to 0.4375
the differance between 8 GPH and 8.4375 GPH is 0.4375 GPH or 56 ounces
which is 0.9333 ounces per minute
*Barry*
*=93Chop=92d Liver=94*
*"The reason Benjamin Franklin was such a great inventor was everything lay
before him. The reason why we don't have great inventors today is,
everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel"*
On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Jim Shafer <jim@powerflowsystems.com>wrot
e:
> Hello,****
>
> ** **
>
> I think it=92s great that Grumman owners have so many options for upgradi
ng
> and improving the performance on these fine aircraft.****
>
> ** **
>
> Since it is obvious that not every option is right for each individual an
d
> his aircraft, accurate information is a key requirement enabling each
> individual to determine which and how many (if any) of the different
> products available make sense for him or her. With that in mind, I=92d l
ike
> to shed a little additional light on the topics raised by Brock, Dean and
> Barry:****
>
> ** **
>
> #1.) Yes, you are already paying for fuel ' AND - Both the Electronic
> Ignition and the Tuned Exhaust allow you to burn it more efficiently. Th
e
> fine folks at Electroair state their gains in percent (a 10% - 15%
> improvement) while we at Power Flow state our gains in gph (a reduction i
n
> fuel burn of 1.0 ' 2.0 gph). For most GA aircraft the effective result
s
> are very close to the same and both companies have had these stated gains
> confirmed by hundreds of Customers.****
>
> ** **
>
> #2.) Electroair does claim a reduced tendency for plug fowling as a
> benefit of their system and I have no reason to doubt their claims. I ca
n
> also state that there have never been any reports suggesting an increase
in
> plug fowling as a result of an upgrade to the Power Flow System.****
>
> ** **
>
> #3.) Both companies claim increased horsepower as a main benefit and
> again, based on each companies track record (3,800+ total Systems install
ed
> / 300+ AA5 Systems installed since 1999 for Power Flow, 2,500+ total
> systems installed since 1992 for Electroair), there is no longer any
> credible reason to doubt either company=92s claims. ****
>
> ** **
>
> The pricing for each system is also remarkably similar: As Barry pointed
> out: depending on lead times and applicable discounts the Power Flow Syst
em
> for a Tiger will run you about $3,500.00 plus five to seven hours of
> installation labor. The Electroair costs $3,400.00 plus four to six hour
s
> of labor to install.****
>
> ** **
>
> As to the increase in HP (and if you don=92t see it, Power Flow will give
> you your money back) you by no means need to replace or even re-pitch you
r
> prop to take advantage of it. First and foremost you can immediately use
> it where it does the Grumman=92s the most good: in take-off and climb
> performance. As I said above, these are fine aircraft. But who among us
> hasn=92t been way too up close and personal with the trees at the far end
of
> a slightly too short runway? What is a shorter take-off roll (by about
> 300=92) and a faster rate of climb (by 100 ' 150 fpm) worth to you in t
hose
> situations?****
>
> ** **
>
> Even at cruise altitude you don=92t need to re-pitch or replace the prop
to
> take advantage of the boost in HP provided by the Power Flow ' just
> throttle back and enjoy cruising at your current airspeed while burning 1
.0
> ' 1.5 gph less avfuel. If you=92re a real speed demon and crave that l
ast 3
> ' 5 knots in airspeed, go ahead and take it. Unless you=92re already
> cruising with your engine at redline rpm, the Power Flow System will give
> you an extra 50 ' 100 rpm to play with. Each 100 rpm gets you an extra
5
> knots of airspeed, and you don=92t have to re-pitch the prop to get it.**
**
>
> ** **
>
> We have had a very small minority (well below 10% and typically those who
> frequently participate in air racing) of our Grumman Customers who are so
> enamored with the potential for increased speed made possible by the Powe
r
> Flow System, that they do choose to purchase and install a higher pitched
> prop to take full advantage of the extra power. This is by no means a
> requirement, but if you happen to enjoy racing, it is another option
> available for you.****
>
> ** **
>
> #4.) We do offer a ceramic coated tailpipe as a $200.00 option, but it IS
> an option (for those owners who take particular pride in the appearance o
f
> their aircraft) and not a required expense. If the discoloration that
> naturally occurs when stainless steel gets hot doesn=92t bother you, ther
e is
> no need to spend the money. If it does bother you and you don=92t mind u
sing
> a little elbow grease, the discoloration can be easily wiped away with
> common stainless steel polish.****
>
> ** **
>
> #5.) Thanks to the dedication and expertise of Power Flow=92s many fine
> Dealers nationwide (including several well-respected =93Grumman Guru=92s
=94 like
> FletchAir, ExcelAir and Gary Vogt) there is no reason on earth why a
> Customer would have to live with an =93ugly hole=94 in their cowling. Ye
s, our
> system requires that a new hole be cut for the relocated exhaust pipe exi
t.
> Gary, John, or David, or any one of Power Flow=92s several hundred Deale
r=92s
> nationwide (or even any reasonably competent A&P) can easily make the
> existing hole all but disappear.****
>
> ** **
>
> The assertion that relocating the tailpipe =93may have ruined your coolin
g
> airflow=94 is groundless. Thanks to Gary Vogt=92s tireless efforts and
> determination, his beautiful =93Jaguar=94 cowling is another excellent up
grade
> available to Grumman owners in its own right. It is not a requirement fo
r
> the Power Flow System.****
>
> ** **
>
> #6.) So to summarize: The Electroair Electronic Ignition will give you
> more horsepower (particularly at higher altitudes) and a 10% -15%
> improvement in fuel economy for about $3,400.00 plus 4 ' 6 hours of
> installation labor. The Power Flow Tuned Exhaust System will give you mo
re
> horsepower (about 10 ' 15 more), better take-off and climb performance,
and
> a 1.0 ' 2.0 gph improvement in fuel economy for about $3,500.00 plus 5
' 7
> hours of installation labor.****
>
> ** **
>
> I don=92t quite see how 7 hours (max) of installation labor can stretch i
nto
> a month of down time, but maybe that=92s just ole=92 math challenged me.*
***
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Which is the right choice for you? Well, like most things in life, the
> honest answer seems to be: =93It all depends=94. I hope the facts outlin
ed
> above will help those who are interested in improving the performance of
> their AA5 make that choice based on accurate information. ****
>
> ** **
>
> And, if you find it impossible to decide, keep in mind that, as has Dean,
> several very happy Customers have installed both STC=92d upgrades on thei
r
> aircraft and gotten the best of both worlds.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> All the Best!****
>
> ****
>
> - Jim Shafer****
>
> Power Flow Systems, Inc.****
>
> Ph: (877) 693-7356****
>
> Fax: (877) 570-9831****
>
> ** **
>
> ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Airport Bum
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:30 AM
>
> *To:* teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Call Garner at Fletchair. They have good prices and support the fleet.
> Electro air is the brand. Depending on your location, Ken Blackman, Gary
> Vogt, Excel Air, Bob Steward, Roscoe Rosche, Barry, or one of the others
> can help you with install.
>
> Kevin
>
> ****
>
>
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:53 AM, Scott Boyce <tscott165@centurylink.net>
> wrote:****
>
> Which electronic ignition and how much?****
>
> ** **
>
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 3:33 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:****
>
>
> ****
>
> Brock:****
>
> ** **
>
> Best bang for the buck and without catchings AIDS/HIV or the CRABS...****
>
> The Electronic Ignition.****
>
> Why?****
>
> 1 - You are already paying for the fuel - you might as well burn it more
> efficiently.****
>
> 2 - Less fouled plugs and NO fouled plugs if you are using REM37BY or a
> fine wire plug.****
>
> 3 - If you go for the exhaust ($3400 Plus install) and if you get an
> improvement in HP - What are you going to do with it? You then need to
> repitch your prop IF if can be repitched. If NOT then $3200 for a new pr
op
> Plus Install.****
>
> $6600!!!!****
>
> 4 - So next is - Do you care if the exhaust discolors? If you than you d
o
> the ceramic coat ... What is that Plus $100?****
>
> $6700!!!!****
>
> 5 - You now just took your standard cowl and cut a ugly hole in it to fit
> the new exhaust - Which may have ruined your cooling airflow, SO now you
> need or want the better cowl... How much is that I don't recall but lets
> say another $3500, Plus Shipping ($250) Plus Install ($3500) Plus Paint
> ($500) Plus Extra Parts ($200)... So that equals === $7950****
>
> WHAT $7950!!!! !!!!****
>
> ** **
>
> Don't forget to add it to the other costs $6700 + $$7950 =$14650...****
>
> Big BANG - Big Bucks and NO KISS****
>
> ** **
>
> 6 - And now the plane is down for another month of no flying...****
>
> ** **
>
> Don't believe my numbers collect your own.****
>
> ** **
>
> Oh! How much gas will $14K buy you? Or even $10K? ! ! ! !
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *Barry*****
>
> *=93Chop=92d Liver=94*****
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 12:42 AM, Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com> wrote:***
*
>
> I am trying to decide on what my next upgrade should be. Powerflow
> exhaust, or electronic ignition. The ignition is a little cheaper, but I
> imagine takes more time to install. Is this correct? Which do you think
> gives the best bang for the buck, exhaust or ignition? If I get the
> exhaust I can start saving for the cowling.
>
> Sent from my iPad****
>
>
> On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote:*
*
> **
>
> Brock,****
>
> ** **
>
> Power Flow for $3400. The ceramic coating is to resist discoloring due t
o
> heat. Not sure if it's worth it.****
>
> ** **
>
> Gary****
>
> ** **
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Brock <n2_narcosis@yahoo.com>
> *To:* "teamgrumman-list@matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:08 PM
> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Powerflow ****
>
>
>
> Hey Gary,
> What is your best deal on a powerflow short stack right now? Is the
> ceramic tip worth it? What is the point com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/= -->
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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