---------------------------------------------------------- TeamGrumman-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/10/15: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:31 PM - Hello... out there. Story time. (Gary L Vogt) 2. 03:56 PM - Re: Hello... out there. Story time. (Dan Schmitz) 3. 04:13 PM - Re: Hello... out there. Story time. (Don Metz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:06 PM PST US From: Gary L Vogt Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Hello... out there. Story time. When I first created TeamGrumman-List, the idea was to be able to exchange jokes, theories, stories and ideas that are not permitted on the GG. Wishful thinking. I also belong to the Lycoming, Corvette, Corvair, and a whole lot of the other lists. None of them are very active either. To break the monotony, here is the latest story. On May 5th, I started the invoice for what was to be a simple annual. Ive been maintaining this plane for about 10 years and have made a few improvements and fixed a number of things, here and there, over the years. When I first saw this plane (a 1978 Tiger) in 2005, it had 1270 hrs on the engine, almost 2700 on the airframe; it was owned by 3 guys then as it is now. The plane was a mess. The previous owner had done such things as installing a piece of angle aluminum behind the panel to mount wing tip flashers/landing lights and Radio Shack electrical dimmers for instrument panel lighting. The heat sink in front of the vacuum filter prevented anyone from changing the filter. It was pretty bad. He had wired everything with automotive wire. The engine gauges were replaced with seven EI 2 1/4 inch engine gauges on an angled panel on the far right. In order to read the tach, the pilot had to lean over and look at the tiny little numbers. None of the gauges were easy to see or read without leaning over. The vacuum gauge didnt work on the first annual. The new owners said the vacuum gauge never worked very well. As it turned out, because of the way the panel was angled, the vacuum line was pinched against the panel. Why this wasnt addressed earlier was beyond me. When I tried to reset the magneto timing, I couldnt get to the left mag because the oil cooler hoses had been routed backwards; i.e., the top hose was routed to the back of the engine accessory case and the bottom hose went to the fitting near the breather hose. They criss-crossed behind the left mag. In order to change mag timing, the hoses had to be removed. Four separate ground wires had been added: 2 from the lower engine mounts on the firewall to the engine block, one from the upper cowling hinge to the engine block, and one from the instrument panel to the engine block. Engine analyzer wires were draped across the back of the firewall and then across to the engine. Changing the oil was a real challenge. Wires were everywhere. The extra ground wire from the upper cowling was used as a mount to hang wires right on top of the oil filter. The plugs were rusty and worn. Compressions on each cylinder fell off by as much as 30 pounds at plus or minus 20 degrees BTDC; clearly the choke was gone in the chrome cylinders. Plug wires were run in such a fashion as to stretch the cables to reach the plugs. The harness was junk. Intake tubes, push rod tubes, and oil drain back tubes all leaked. No fire-sleeve on the fuel flow transducer (it rarely worked anyway). The air-oil separator had a high spot in the drain back line so it collected oil. Springs to hold up the baffle straps were missing. Baffle seals did not seal much. Lower engine mount (vibration isolators) were badly sagged. The air filter was so decomposed that it was in shreds in the bottom of the airbox. The oil had not been changed in 92 hours. None of the hoses had a data tag and appeared home made. All of the baffles were cracked and had been repaired several times. Rivnuts on the nose gear top seal had been replaced with screws and nuts; removing the top seal was interesting. The cotter pin on the nose gear was installed but not bent over. Aileron stops were bent over so they didnt stop anything. Brake linings worn through; 60 hours on new linings according to the logbook. Brake master cylinders were from a '77. Flaps are from a '77 (no trailing edge cap). Elevator to bellcrank bolts were crowded out. Horizontal braces were cracked. Pilots side carpet soaked, I mean soaked, in brake fluid. Audio panel doesnt work well on #2 comm. Panel mounted (portable) GPS database out of date; not a big deal, the GPS doesnt work anyway. All of the seat bracket boys were loose. With 2700 hours on the airframe, no mention of the rudder return springs being replaced. . . . . Over the years, I gradually fixed most of the stuff. So, this year started out as did most. Id fix what I could and the owners would postpone what they could. Except that, with 1992+ hours on the engine and the low compressions, #1: 23/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings); #2: 61/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings), #3: 58/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings); #4: 75/80, the engine couldnt be ignored this year. I called the primary owner (who Id been working with for 10 years) and told him it was time to get a new engine. When he asked me how much, I told him, Realistically, by the time I remove everything and fix all of the stuff that has been put off for 10 years, $30,000 to $35,000 is not out of the question. I told him of a recent factory overhauled engine, ported and polished, O ringed engine case, and prepped by LyCon was $28,025. That engine was installed on 626. The owners response to me was, I really wanted to upgrade the engine analyzer to the EDM 900 and get new avionics this year. I told him it was possible to put off the overhaul for another 1000 hours with a complete top overhaul. I told him new cylinders, ported and polished, would be around $7500 with overhauled rockers. New engine mounts (by now they were really bad. the bottom ones were separating) would be over $1000. New baffles (from AeroForm in Alaska) would be another $1400. New hoses would run about $550. And the engine analyzer at my cost would be about $3900. The owner asked me to get an estimate for a new Garmin 340 audio panel, 650 GPS/Comm/Nav, a Garmin 225 for a second comm, and a Garmin 330ES transponder. He again told me he really wanted new avionics. I called my avionics guy as soon as we hung up. The owner questioned the logic of just replacing the cylinders and not overhaul the engine. I told him to ask around and see if it made sense to him. The one thing he said he definitely wanted was the EDM 900. I told him to send me a check. So, I finished up the annual, ordered the EDM 900, and started to remove the right side panel for the new analyzer. What I found was switches and circuit breakers for some of the engine gauges (to separately turn them on and off) wired to a panel that included the PS engineering 4-place intercom. In order to remove the panel, I could have untangled the intercom wires that were also intertwined to the Radio Shack flasher for the landing lights. Basing my approach on installing new avionics, I cut the wires to the back seat headphone jacks. I removed all of he EI engine gauges. I untangled the flasher wires and removed about 2 feet of excess (automotive) wiring to the flasher unit. While in there, I cleaned up wires to the instrument lighting and removed about 10 feet of dyked-off wires. I also removed the avionics from their trays. Then, some two weeks later, I got a call from the owner. First off, I told him the good news was that I had already sold some of the avionics. I told him I still hadnt heard from my avionics guy but that I would call right away. He told me that he would go along with just replacing the cylinders but that Mike Busch said only an engine shop should replace all 4 cylinders; Mike Busch says mechanics are not qualified to replace cylinders. I had already removed the baffles and was getting ready to install new cylinders. The option was for me to take the engine to LyCon and have them replace the cylinders. It took him another week to decide I could replace the cylinders. I told him to send me a check for the cylinders and the annual. He did. It bounced. He sent another. I ordered the cylinders and it took a week to get them. I ordered the baffle set. I was surprised to find that, although the new baffles are nice, they dont fit well. They also wrap too far around the bottom of the cylinders. I spent about 4 hours fitting them, trimming them, and modifying them so that I could use them. I charged the owner 1 hours labor. Then, I called the owner and told him the new avionics would be about $18,000 plus installation. I also told him I had already started the avionics removal. I removed the old cylinders, measured the cam (the owner wanted to know if there was any measurable wear on the cam. I used the tool for valve guide wear to measure the cam. I had to fabricate a mount.) I cleaned up the block, checked all of the bolts, fixed all of the wiring firewall forward, removed the excess grounds, replaced the mag P-lead wires with new wires, installed the engine analyzer, wired it up, and when the new cylinders came, I installed them and finished up the wiring. The new baffles were sent out for powder coating as were the push rod tubes, intake tubes and rocker covers. About this time, the owner called and said he wanted all of the old avionics replaced. It was then that the owner told me he only had $14,000 in the engine reserve to overhaul the engine at TBO. One of the other owners called and said he wanted to take the plane to Oshkosh two weeks away. He began calling everyday to determine the progress. I guess I shouldnt have started the avionics removal. I had to track down wiring diagrams and rewire the intercom. The good news is, I found a bad wire in the PTT, a bad mic jack for the pilot, and a broken wire in the right rear seat. I did all of this work without charging the owner. The second owner wanted a cost estimate and a time estimate to finish the plane. So, the next morning, I pulled an estimate out of the blue and sent it to him. Id never installed an EDM 900 so I took my average time to install an EDM 730 and added 4 hours. I forgot to include the time required to install baffle seals. I also forgot the time required to replace the DGO-10 theyd sent. I also forgot to provide an estimate to do the initial break-in of the cylinders that had been requested. My overall estimate was off by about 24-30 hours plus $650+ in parts. As for the engine mounts, the owner never called back so I replaced the bottom mounts with some good used mounts I had on my shelf. I also replaced the #2 exhaust riser. The fabricated panel for the engine analyzer came out nice. The rear seat headphones work. I relocated the music jack to the left side near the pilots head phone jacks. Six weeks after this project began, the plane was done. I tried very hard to get it done for Oshkosh. Missed it by one day. Most days were 10-12 hour days. Total labor hours just over 131 hours including the annual. The engine compartment is nice and clean and the plane flies great. No wires hanging in the way. I would like the analyzer to be closer to the pilot but the iPad mount fills the middle of the panel The final invoice came out to be about $3650 higher (including $650 in parts and after discounting $2100) than the estimate I gave them. They dont want to pay the final invoice. Lesson learned: always over estimate the cost to finish. Good news is, one of my other customers has loaned me $6500 so I can pay my mortgages (two houses) and pay for parts. Another customer has offered to bring his plane in two months early to help. A big thanks to them. Time to go to work. Gary ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:30 PM PST US From: Dan Schmitz Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Hello... out there. Story time. Ouch! :( And that plane sounds scary. Or at least it was. Thanks for sharing. But now I want to find Mr. Jack Daniels. Why insist on a top overhaul at 1992 hours for an engine averaging 70 hours a year? I'm no expert, but I can't see another 1000 hours there. Those new avionics aren't much good on the ground. Dan Schmitz N4518B KASH > When I first created TeamGrumman-List, the idea was to be able to > exchange jokes, theories, stories and ideas that are not permitted on the > GG. Wishful thinking. I also belong to the Lycoming, Corvette, Corvair, and > a whole lot of the other lists. None of them are very active either. > > To break the monotony, here is the latest story. > > On May 5th, I started the invoice for what was to be a simple annual. Ive > been maintaining this plane for about 10 years and have made a few > improvements and fixed a number of things, here and there, over the years. > > When I first saw this plane (a 1978 Tiger) in 2005, it had 1270 hrs on the > engine, almost 2700 on the airframe; it was owned by 3 guys then as it is > now. The plane was a mess. The previous owner had done such things as > installing a piece of angle aluminum behind the panel to mount wing tip > flashers/landing lights and Radio Shack electrical dimmers for instrument > panel lighting. The heat sink in front of the vacuum filter prevented anyone > from changing the filter. It was pretty bad. He had wired everything with > automotive wire. The engine gauges were replaced with seven EI 2 1/4 inch > engine gauges on an angled panel on the far right. In order to read the tach, > the pilot had to lean over and look at the tiny little numbers. None of the > gauges were easy to see or read without leaning over. > > The vacuum gauge didnt work on the first annual. The new owners said the > vacuum gauge never worked very well. As it turned out, because of the way > the panel was angled, the vacuum line was pinched against the panel. Why > this wasnt addressed earlier was beyond me. > > When I tried to reset the magneto timing, I couldnt get to the left mag > because the oil cooler hoses had been routed backwards; i.e., the top hose > was routed to the back of the engine accessory case and the bottom hose > went to the fitting near the breather hose. They criss-crossed behind the > left mag. In order to change mag timing, the hoses had to be removed. > > Four separate ground wires had been added: 2 from the lower engine > mounts on the firewall to the engine block, one from the upper cowling > hinge to the engine block, and one from the instrument panel to the engine > block. > > Engine analyzer wires were draped across the back of the firewall and then > across to the engine. Changing the oil was a real challenge. Wires were > everywhere. The extra ground wire from the upper cowling was used as a > mount to hang wires right on top of the oil filter. > > The plugs were rusty and worn. Compressions on each cylinder fell off by as > much as 30 pounds at plus or minus 20 degrees BTDC; clearly the choke was > gone in the chrome cylinders. Plug wires were run in such a fashion as to > stretch the cables to reach the plugs. The harness was junk. Intake tubes, > push rod tubes, and oil drain back tubes all leaked. No fire-sleeve on the > fuel flow transducer (it rarely worked anyway). The air-oil separator had a > high spot in the drain back line so it collected oil. Springs to hold up the > baffle straps were missing. Baffle seals did not seal much. Lower engine > mount (vibration isolators) were badly sagged. The air filter was so > decomposed that it was in shreds in the bottom of the airbox. The oil had > not been changed in 92 hours. None of the hoses had a data tag and > appeared home made. All of the baffles were cracked and had been > repaired several times. Rivnuts on the nose gear top seal had been > replaced with screws and nuts; rem! > oving the top seal was interesting. The cotter pin on the nose gear was > installed but not bent over. Aileron stops were bent over so they didnt > stop anything. Brake linings worn through; 60 hours on new linings > according to the logbook. Brake master cylinders were from a '77. Flaps are > from a '77 (no trailing edge cap). Elevator to bellcrank bolts were crowded > out. Horizontal braces were cracked. Pilots side carpet soaked, I mean > soaked, in brake fluid. Audio panel doesnt work well on #2 comm. Panel > mounted (portable) GPS database out of date; not a big deal, the GPS > doesnt work anyway. All of the seat bracket boys were loose. With 2700 > hours on the airframe, no mention of the rudder return springs being > replaced. . . . . Over the years, I gradually fixed most of the stuff. > > So, this year started out as did most. Id fix what I could and the owners > would postpone what they could. Except that, with 1992+ hours on the > engine and the low compressions, #1: 23/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and > rings); #2: 61/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings), #3: 58/80 (leaking at > exhaust valve and rings); #4: 75/80, the engine couldnt be ignored this year. > I called the primary owner (who Id been working with for 10 years) and told > him it was time to get a new engine. When he asked me how much, I told > him, Realistically, by the time I remove everything and fix all of the stuff > that has been put off for 10 years, $30,000 to $35,000 is not out of the > question. I told him of a recent factory overhauled engine, ported and > polished, O ringed engine case, and prepped by LyCon was $28,025. That > engine was installed on 626. > > The owners response to me was, I really wanted to upgrade the engine > analyzer to the EDM 900 and get new avionics this year. I told him it was > possible to put off the overhaul for another 1000 hours with a complete top > overhaul. I told him new cylinders, ported and polished, would be around > $7500 with overhauled rockers. New engine mounts (by now they were > really bad. the bottom ones were separating) would be over $1000. New > baffles (from AeroForm in Alaska) would be another $1400. New hoses > would run about $550. And the engine analyzer at my cost would be about > $3900. > > The owner asked me to get an estimate for a new Garmin 340 audio panel, > 650 GPS/Comm/Nav, a Garmin 225 for a second comm, and a Garmin 330ES > transponder. He again told me he really wanted new avionics. I called my > avionics guy as soon as we hung up. > > The owner questioned the logic of just replacing the cylinders and not > overhaul the engine. I told him to ask around and see if it made sense to > him. The one thing he said he definitely wanted was the EDM 900. I told > him to send me a check. > > So, I finished up the annual, ordered the EDM 900, and started to remove > the right side panel for the new analyzer. What I found was switches and > circuit breakers for some of the engine gauges (to separately turn them on > and off) wired to a panel that included the PS engineering 4-place intercom. > In order to remove the panel, I could have untangled the intercom wires > that were also intertwined to the Radio Shack flasher for the landing lights. > Basing my approach on installing new avionics, I cut the wires to the back > seat headphone jacks. I removed all of he EI engine gauges. I untangled the > flasher wires and removed about 2 feet of excess (automotive) wiring to the > flasher unit. While in there, I cleaned up wires to the instrument lighting > and removed about 10 feet of dyked-off wires. I also removed the avionics > from their trays. Then, some two weeks later, I got a call from the owner. > > First off, I told him the good news was that I had already sold some of the > avionics. I told him I still hadnt heard from my avionics guy but that I would > call right away. He told me that he would go along with just replacing the > cylinders but that Mike Busch said only an engine shop should replace all 4 > cylinders; Mike Busch says mechanics are not qualified to replace cylinders. > I had already removed the baffles and was getting ready to install new > cylinders. The option was for me to take the engine to LyCon and have > them replace the cylinders. It took him another week to decide I could > replace the cylinders. I told him to send me a check for the cylinders and > the annual. He did. It bounced. He sent another. > > I ordered the cylinders and it took a week to get them. > > I ordered the baffle set. I was surprised to find that, although the new > baffles are nice, they dont fit well. They also wrap too far around the > bottom of the cylinders. I spent about 4 hours fitting them, trimming them, > and modifying them so that I could use them. I charged the owner 1 hours > labor. Then, I called the owner and told him the new avionics would be > about $18,000 plus installation. I also told him I had already started the > avionics removal. > > I removed the old cylinders, measured the cam (the owner wanted to know > if there was any measurable wear on the cam. I used the tool for valve > guide wear to measure the cam. I had to fabricate a mount.) I cleaned up > the block, checked all of the bolts, fixed all of the wiring firewall forward, > removed the excess grounds, replaced the mag P-lead wires with new > wires, installed the engine analyzer, wired it up, and when the new > cylinders came, I installed them and finished up the wiring. The new baffles > were sent out for powder coating as were the push rod tubes, intake tubes > and rocker covers. About this time, the owner called and said he wanted all > of the old avionics replaced. It was then that the owner told me he only had > $14,000 in the engine reserve to overhaul the engine at TBO. One of the > other owners called and said he wanted to take the plane to Oshkosh two > weeks away. He began calling everyday to determine the progress. > > I guess I shouldnt have started the avionics removal. I had to track down > wiring diagrams and rewire the intercom. The good news is, I found a bad > wire in the PTT, a bad mic jack for the pilot, and a broken wire in the right > rear seat. I did all of this work without charging the owner. The second > owner wanted a cost estimate and a time estimate to finish the plane. > > So, the next morning, I pulled an estimate out of the blue and sent it to him. > Id never installed an EDM 900 so I took my average time to install an EDM > 730 and added 4 hours. I forgot to include the time required to install baffle > seals. I also forgot the time required to replace the DGO-10 theyd sent. I > also forgot to provide an estimate to do the initial break-in of the cylinders > that had been requested. My overall estimate was off by about 24-30 hours > plus $650+ in parts. > > As for the engine mounts, the owner never called back so I replaced the > bottom mounts with some good used mounts I had on my shelf. I also > replaced the #2 exhaust riser. The fabricated panel for the engine analyzer > came out nice. The rear seat headphones work. I relocated the music jack > to the left side near the pilots head phone jacks. > > Six weeks after this project began, the plane was done. I tried very hard to > get it done for Oshkosh. Missed it by one day. Most days were 10-12 hour > days. Total labor hours just over 131 hours including the annual. The engine > compartment is nice and clean and the plane flies great. No wires hanging > in the way. I would like the analyzer to be closer to the pilot but the iPad > mount fills the middle of the panel The final invoice came out to be about > $3650 higher (including $650 in parts and after discounting $2100) than the > estimate I gave them. They dont want to pay the final invoice. > > Lesson learned: always over estimate the cost to finish. > > Good news is, one of my other customers has loaned me $6500 so I can pay > my mortgages (two houses) and pay for parts. Another customer has > offered to bring his plane in two months early to help. A big thanks to > them. > > Time to go to work. > > Gary ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:22 PM PST US From: "Don Metz" Subject: RE: TeamGrumman-List: Hello... out there. Story time. Hi Gary, sounds like their priorities are a little skewed. Like Dan says, new radios on the ground aren't too useful... Also, an estimate is just that. I hope you feel a little better getting it off your chest anyway. -----Original Message----- From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary L Vogt Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 3:30 PM Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Hello... out there. Story time. --> When I first created TeamGrumman-List, the idea was to be able to exchange jokes, theories, stories and ideas that are not permitted on the GG. Wishful thinking. I also belong to the Lycoming, Corvette, Corvair, and a whole lot of the other lists. None of them are very active either. To break the monotony, here is the latest story. On May 5th, I started the invoice for what was to be a simple annual. Ive been maintaining this plane for about 10 years and have made a few improvements and fixed a number of things, here and there, over the years. When I first saw this plane (a 1978 Tiger) in 2005, it had 1270 hrs on the engine, almost 2700 on the airframe; it was owned by 3 guys then as it is now. The plane was a mess. The previous owner had done such things as installing a piece of angle aluminum behind the panel to mount wing tip flashers/landing lights and Radio Shack electrical dimmers for instrument panel lighting. The heat sink in front of the vacuum filter prevented anyone from changing the filter. It was pretty bad. He had wired everything with automotive wire. The engine gauges were replaced with seven EI 2 1/4 inch engine gauges on an angled panel on the far right. In order to read the tach, the pilot had to lean over and look at the tiny little numbers. None of the gauges were easy to see or read without leaning over. The vacuum gauge didnt work on the first annual. The new owners said the vacuum gauge never worked very well. As it turned out, because of the way the panel was angled, the vacuum line was pinched against the panel. Why this wasnt addressed earlier was beyond me. When I tried to reset the magneto timing, I couldnt get to the left mag because the oil cooler hoses had been routed backwards; i.e., the top hose was routed to the back of the engine accessory case and the bottom hose went to the fitting near the breather hose. They criss-crossed behind the left mag. In order to change mag timing, the hoses had to be removed. Four separate ground wires had been added: 2 from the lower engine mounts on the firewall to the engine block, one from the upper cowling hinge to the engine block, and one from the instrument panel to the engine block. Engine analyzer wires were draped across the back of the firewall and then across to the engine. Changing the oil was a real challenge. Wires were everywhere. The extra ground wire from the upper cowling was used as a mount to hang wires right on top of the oil filter. The plugs were rusty and worn. Compressions on each cylinder fell off by as much as 30 pounds at plus or minus 20 degrees BTDC; clearly the choke was gone in the chrome cylinders. Plug wires were run in such a fashion as to stretch the cables to reach the plugs. The harness was junk. Intake tubes, push rod tubes, and oil drain back tubes all leaked. No fire-sleeve on the fuel flow transducer (it rarely worked anyway). The air-oil separator had a high spot in the drain back line so it collected oil. Springs to hold up the baffle straps were missing. Baffle seals did not seal much. Lower engine mount (vibration isolators) were badly sagged. The air filter was so decomposed that it was in shreds in the bottom of the airbox. The oil had not been changed in 92 hours. None of the hoses had a data tag and appeared home made. All of the baffles were cracked and had been repaired several times. Rivnuts on the nose gear top seal had been replaced with screws and nuts; rem! oving the top seal was interesting. The cotter pin on the nose gear was installed but not bent over. Aileron stops were bent over so they didnt stop anything. Brake linings worn through; 60 hours on new linings according to the logbook. Brake master cylinders were from a '77. Flaps are from a '77 (no trailing edge cap). Elevator to bellcrank bolts were crowded out. Horizontal braces were cracked. Pilots side carpet soaked, I mean soaked, in brake fluid. Audio panel doesnt work well on #2 comm. Panel mounted (portable) GPS database out of date; not a big deal, the GPS doesnt work anyway. All of the seat bracket boys were loose. With 2700 hours on the airframe, no mention of the rudder return springs being replaced. . . . . Over the years, I gradually fixed most of the stuff. So, this year started out as did most. Id fix what I could and the owners would postpone what they could. Except that, with 1992+ hours on the engine and the low compressions, #1: 23/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings); #2: 61/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings), #3: 58/80 (leaking at exhaust valve and rings); #4: 75/80, the engine couldnt be ignored this year. I called the primary owner (who Id been working with for 10 years) and told him it was time to get a new engine. When he asked me how much, I told him, Realistically, by the time I remove everything and fix all of the stuff that has been put off for 10 years, $30,000 to $35,000 is not out of the question. I told him of a recent factory overhauled engine, ported and polished, O ringed engine case, and prepped by LyCon was $28,025. That engine was installed on 626. The owners response to me was, I really wanted to upgrade the engine analyzer to the EDM 900 and get new avionics this year. I told him it was possible to put off the overhaul for another 1000 hours with a complete top overhaul. I told him new cylinders, ported and polished, would be around $7500 with overhauled rockers. New engine mounts (by now they were really bad. the bottom ones were separating) would be over $1000. New baffles (from AeroForm in Alaska) would be another $1400. New hoses would run about $550. And the engine analyzer at my cost would be about $3900. The owner asked me to get an estimate for a new Garmin 340 audio panel, 650 GPS/Comm/Nav, a Garmin 225 for a second comm, and a Garmin 330ES transponder. He again told me he really wanted new avionics. I called my avionics guy as soon as we hung up. The owner questioned the logic of just replacing the cylinders and not overhaul the engine. I told him to ask around and see if it made sense to him. The one thing he said he definitely wanted was the EDM 900. I told him to send me a check. So, I finished up the annual, ordered the EDM 900, and started to remove the right side panel for the new analyzer. What I found was switches and circuit breakers for some of the engine gauges (to separately turn them on and off) wired to a panel that included the PS engineering 4-place intercom. In order to remove the panel, I could have untangled the intercom wires that were also intertwined to the Radio Shack flasher for the landing lights. Basing my approach on installing new avionics, I cut the wires to the back seat headphone jacks. I removed all of he EI engine gauges. I untangled the flasher wires and removed about 2 feet of excess (automotive) wiring to the flasher unit. While in there, I cleaned up wires to the instrument lighting and removed about 10 feet of dyked-off wires. I also removed the avionics from their trays. Then, some two weeks later, I got a call from the owner. First off, I told him the good news was that I had already sold some of the avionics. I told him I still hadnt heard from my avionics guy but that I would call right away. He told me that he would go along with just replacing the cylinders but that Mike Busch said only an engine shop should replace all 4 cylinders; Mike Busch says mechanics are not qualified to replace cylinders. I had already removed the baffles and was getting ready to install new cylinders. The option was for me to take the engine to LyCon and have them replace the cylinders. It took him another week to decide I could replace the cylinders. I told him to send me a check for the cylinders and the annual. He did. It bounced. He sent another. I ordered the cylinders and it took a week to get them. I ordered the baffle set. I was surprised to find that, although the new baffles are nice, they dont fit well. They also wrap too far around the bottom of the cylinders. I spent about 4 hours fitting them, trimming them, and modifying them so that I could use them. I charged the owner 1 hours labor. Then, I called the owner and told him the new avionics would be about $18,000 plus installation. I also told him I had already started the avionics removal. I removed the old cylinders, measured the cam (the owner wanted to know if there was any measurable wear on the cam. I used the tool for valve guide wear to measure the cam. I had to fabricate a mount.) I cleaned up the block, checked all of the bolts, fixed all of the wiring firewall forward, removed the excess grounds, replaced the mag P-lead wires with new wires, installed the engine analyzer, wired it up, and when the new cylinders came, I installed them and finished up the wiring. The new baffles were sent out for powder coating as were the push rod tubes, intake tubes and rocker covers. About this time, the owner called and said he wanted all of the old avionics replaced. It was then that the owner told me he only had $14,000 in the engine reserve to overhaul the engine at TBO. One of the other owners called and said he wanted to take the plane to Oshkosh two weeks away. He began calling everyday to determine the progress. I guess I shouldnt have started the avionics removal. I had to track down wiring diagrams and rewire the intercom. The good news is, I found a bad wire in the PTT, a bad mic jack for the pilot, and a broken wire in the right rear seat. I did all of this work without charging the owner. The second owner wanted a cost estimate and a time estimate to finish the plane. So, the next morning, I pulled an estimate out of the blue and sent it to him. Id never installed an EDM 900 so I took my average time to install an EDM 730 and added 4 hours. I forgot to include the time required to install baffle seals. I also forgot the time required to replace the DGO-10 theyd sent. I also forgot to provide an estimate to do the initial break-in of the cylinders that had been requested. My overall estimate was off by about 24-30 hours plus $650+ in parts. As for the engine mounts, the owner never called back so I replaced the bottom mounts with some good used mounts I had on my shelf. I also replaced the #2 exhaust riser. The fabricated panel for the engine analyzer came out nice. The rear seat headphones work. I relocated the music jack to the left side near the pilots head phone jacks. Six weeks after this project began, the plane was done. I tried very hard to get it done for Oshkosh. Missed it by one day. Most days were 10-12 hour days. Total labor hours just over 131 hours including the annual. The engine compartment is nice and clean and the plane flies great. No wires hanging in the way. I would like the analyzer to be closer to the pilot but the iPad mount fills the middle of the panel The final invoice came out to be about $3650 higher (including $650 in parts and after discounting $2100) than the estimate I gave them. They dont want to pay the final invoice. Lesson learned: always over estimate the cost to finish. Good news is, one of my other customers has loaned me $6500 so I can pay my mortgages (two houses) and pay for parts. Another customer has offered to bring his plane in two months early to help. A big thanks to them. Time to go to work. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message teamgrumman-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/TeamGrumman-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/teamgrumman-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/teamgrumman-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.