Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:05 PM - Re: Customers are an interesting lot (Gary L Vogt)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Customers are an interesting lot |
Richard,
I think I charged $75/hr in 2002. The last $850 annual (1974 Traveler)
I did was in 2006. That particular annual was on a plane I knew
intimately. The owner brought the plane to me without the co-pilot=92s
seat, no wheel pants, and when he got here, we removed everything that
could be removed, we inspected everything, and put it back together
(seat and wheel pants in the back of the plane). My rate then was
$85/hr. We spent 10 hours on the annual. The owner of this plane is
one of only a couple of owners that I=92d trust working on his own plane
without supervision.
You would need to look at the records I keep and the routine maintenance
I do to completely understand the in-depth inspections I do. My fixed
flat rate annual price is $1500. That rate hasn=92t changed since 2006.
=93IF=94 I can work on the same plane every year, I can learn and
document everything that needs to be done. I can do the basic 18 hours
of inspection in about 15 hours if I know the plane well. This helps
the owner and me. Periodic inspections like wheel bearings, elevator
trim, and anything else I find that needs to be fixed are extra and
charged at the shop rate of $105/hr. Incidentally, the shop in Nevada
County (12 miles by air north of here) charges $2200 flat rate and does
wheel bearings every year. I do wheel bearings every other year and
charge 5 hours for it. So, every other year mine would be $2100 as a
comparison.
=93IF=94 I don=92t know the plane, the first annual could take as much
as a week. And I=92ve seen them cost a LOT.
Anecdote (1): Got a plane (1977 Tiger I=92d never seen before) that had
been maintained by a mechanic in Columbia, CA. Wing access covers
leaking like crazy. The owner had paid his mechanic over $1000 to seal
the covers. It took me two days to dig all the sealant out from around
the covers and seal them properly. His spinner bulkhead was badly
punched out. His bill was another $1500.
Anecdote (2): I got another plane (same mechanic from Columbia,CA) from
San Jose. The owner bragged that he never paid more than $500 on an
annual. The Altitude Hold on his S-Tec 30 had been disconnected. The
elevator trim was so badly corroded and jammed that it would not move at
all. He=92d been flying this way for 5 YEARS!
Anecdote (3): I got a customer out of Temecula, CA who bragged about
never paying more than $200 on an annual for 15 years. I found over 119
documented items that would ground the plane. I mean, 3 of six bolts
were holding the pilot=92s seat onto the spar for God=92s sake. At that
time my shop rate was $50/hr and his annual cost him over $7500. You
pay now or you pay later.
Anecdote (4): An owner and prospective buyer came into my shop for a
Pre-Purchase Inspection (for which I charge $500). The plane: a 1977
Tiger with just over 3000 hours on it. The owner told me he's done all
of his own annuals on the plane for the last 20 years and tells me,
=93It=92s in perfect condition.=94 He has a local guy sign off the
annuals for $75. I looked at the plane for an hour and told the buyer,
=93Offer him $30,000. It needs a lot of work. For one thing, Home
Depot hardware is not allowed.=94 The owner, of course, wanted $70,000
for the plane.
Anecdote (5): Every time I read on the GG about someone who has brakes
that don=92t work, it cracks me up. It=92s a simple routine maintenance
that is done every other year during wheel bearing service. I=92ve
never had a customer with a brake failure.
The bottom line is: to keep up on all of the maintenance and do it
right, it=92s going to cost you money either now or in the future when
something fails.
I=92m sure there are a lot of planes that are just fine and being owner
maintained and are in top shape. I=92m just saying, =93I keep very
thorough records of maintenance I do. I can tell you when you=92ll need
to have your . . . . inspected. I can predict when you=92ll need new
brake disks and linings. I can tell you the Static RPM at a particular
temperature and pressure for each annual and note any outlying data that
might indicate a problem.=94
Here are three sample pages (of 14) of a well talked about subject
plane=92s inspection.
Gary
> On Sep 1, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Richard <rcmutz@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Gary,
>
> Just catching up on some of the TeamGrumman postings.
>
> Interesting perspective and information.
>
> I always believed that a man has to earn a living. My AnP that I have
used for almost 8 years now charges $70/hr. His flat rate for annual is
$850. He knocks $100 off for my one day I spend opening ALL access
panels, removing plugs and cleaning and gapping, and changing
oil/filter/cutting filter. He will bill out for any work beyond the
annual inspection on a 1/4 hr basis and always discusses what he wants
to do with an estimate before proceeding.
>
> I think I have a good relationship and appreciate HIS honesty and
integrity.
>
> Glad to hear you have customers who you hold in good regard!
>
> Richard
>
> > From: teamgrumman@yahoo.com <mailto:teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Customers are an interesting lot
> > Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:20:37 -0700
> > To: teamgrumman-list@matronics.com
<mailto:teamgrumman-list@matronics.com>
> >
<teamgrumman@yahoo.com <mailto:teamgrumman@yahoo.com>>
> >
> > Or maybe I should say, =91people are an interesting lot.=92
> >
> > I=92ve been working on other people=92s planes for 30 years. All
total, I=92ve worked on over 300 different planes; including a Cessna
210, a Cessna 182, a Cessna 177, a Cessna 175, a Cessna 172, 2 Mooney
M20s, a Mooney 231, 2 Piper Comanches, a Beech Musketeer, 3 different
Beech Bonanzas, 2 Citabrias, a Piper Pacer and a whole lot of Grummans.
I=92ve had customers fly from as far away as Missouri to get their plane
worked on. We currently have about 40 customers from San Diego to
Seattle and as far east as Utah; about a tank of gas each way.
> >
> > I=92ve learned a lot about people in 30 years.
> >
> > I=92ve had customers who were poor day laborers scraping by just to
fly, a retired F-105 fighter who told great stories of sorties over
Vietnam, a couple of F-16 fighter pilots, a Lt General in the California
Air National Guard, several computer engineers, several self employed
house builders & property managers, a couple of airport managers, owners
of petroleum distributers, an Under Sheriff for LA County, two
architects, several Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, and Aerospace
engineers, several University Professors, a couple of High School
teachers, a retired surveyor for the State of California, a couple of
California Fire Fighters, a developer from Canada, several airline
pilots, a couple of lawyers, and many more than I can recall.
> >
> > I had no idea how to charge for annuals when I started. The avionics
guy in Lancaster charged $50/hr so that=92s what I charged. That
avionics guy and I are still good friends. He charges $110/hr now and
has more work than he knows what to do with.
> >
> > I started doing owner assisted annuals almost right from the
beginning. It took a while to figure out how to charge for owner assist.
One customer, about 1992, suggested I just charge for the time I am
working on the plane and forget the flat rate charge. I told him it
would cost him more. He said it was worth it. So, that is how I do it
now.
> >
> > While in Lancaster, I would set up my futon couch for out-of-town
customers doing an owner assisted annual. I could help them and it kept
the cost of the annuals down. I continued that service after I moved to
Auburn. Oddly, I=92ve had a couple of customers who=92d rather stay in a
motel than sleep n a futon couch; go figure. Now that I have a house
with a spare room, we, my wife Clytie and I, have hosted MANY customers.
They are treated to home-cooked Philipino food for dinner each night and
home-cooked American breakfasts; the longest stay was just over a week.
We have a couple of customers who insist on treating us to meals out.
> >
> > We=92ve had customers buy us tools, wine, Scotch, plane tickets, pay
$100/hr driving time to their airports to work on their planes, pay a
$1000 finders fee for an airplane they bought when the seller was too
cheap to pay the $5000 promised they'd pay me to sell his plane and then
changed their minds after the deal (this has happened twice), customers
who give my wife and I free trips, customers who offer us room and board
when we visit their neck-of-the-woods and I=92ve had customers loan me
money (as much as $10,000) to get me through some very dry spells. In
2006, I had one customer (the Lt General) who threatened to stop
bringing his plane to me because I didn=92t charge for all the work I
did; he insisted on paying for every nut, screw, terminal end and every
minute I worked on his plane. Sometime around 1999, I flew to Prescott,
Arizona to help a customer who had a plane that wouldn=92t start and
needed a starter; I did it for free. Sometime around 2003, I had a c!
> > ustomer with a broken rudder spring in North Las Vegas. I flew over
there and changed the springs in 115 degree temps for the cost of fuel.
These were customers who always went out of their way to help me; it was
the least I could do.
> >
> > And, on the flip side, I=92ve had good customers who would load up
their planes with free water and goodies from my refrigerator just
because. I=92ve had customers who pay their bills on monthly
installments and ask for discounts even after I=92ve already discounted
the invoice. I=92ve had customers who complain the bill is too high or
that is shouldn=92t take 20-40 hours to strip the fuel tank sealant out
of a wing and reseal it or that I overcharge for parts [note: I
generally sell at retail cost for everything]. The really expensive
stuff I sell at or near my cost and make money on the installation and
yet, some customers still complain.
> >
> > Most, if not all, of our customers have became long term friends. In
30 years, I=92ve only refused to work on 4 planes. Not because of the
planes (except for 2-seaters. I=92ve refused many 2-seaters. I work on
one 2-seater BECAUSE of the owner. He=92s a terrific guy.), but because
of the owners. Quite frankly, I=92m too busy to deal with customers who
lack integrity, who second guess everything I do, who question my ethics
or the way I charge, or those owners I just don=92t like.
> >
> > To all [well, most all] of my customers, past and present, you make
my life worth while. Thanks.
> >
> > Ga===============
> >
> >
> >
>
>
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|