---------------------------------------------------------- XDP4000X-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/25/03: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:19 AM - Re: 3 way system up front (Scott Walters) 2. 10:21 AM - Re: dynamat experience (Scott Walters) 3. 01:51 PM - Re: XDP4000X-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 02/24/03 (Leo G. Divingracia III) 4. 05:50 PM - reply to scott posts (Patrick Freeland) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:12 AM PST US From: Scott Walters Subject: Re: XDP4000X-List: 3 way system up front --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: Scott Walters On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Steven Kephart wrote: > --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Steven Kephart" > > Hello Scott. > > First of all, most people recomend doing some > reinforcement on the Q logic kick pannels. You might want > to apply a couple layers to the inside to stiffen it up a > little. That might help out on the lack of midbass. i did manage to have some foresight and dynamated fanatically the qlogic kicks before install. there is still some resonance, but i think mostly cause its not mounted as best it could be. doesn't really matter cause I am now using the 6.5's in the doors for mid-bass, 78-500Hz, and the 6.5s in the qlogics as mids, 500-4k. I want to stay 3-way up frount and will be doing custom kicks for the new mid-basses up front. > What kind of a/d/s/ speakers did you have? no ads speakers just amps. JL VR650 as mid/tweet in qlogics, audio art 6.5 in the doors as mid bass. > fallen in love with them. It is the Adire Audio Koda > component set. Check them out at adireaudio.com. I was a believe it or not i did find these on my research. I want to go 3-way up front, so the lack of 3-4" midrange, eliminates this as a choice for me. -- Scott Walters -PacketPusher ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:12 AM PST US From: Scott Walters Subject: Re: XDP4000X-List: dynamat experience --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: Scott Walters On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Dremgragen . wrote: > --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Dremgragen ." > > > You got ripped off homie. You should have asked around before you made > your purchase. Dynamat is soooooo expensive. but it says Dynamat on it ;) at least i didn't pay retail. thanks for the info, hopefully others will be better advised. > Rick McCallum is the nicest customer-friendly business owner you'll > ever meet. His website is href="http://www.raamaudio.com">www.raamaudio.com He sells his RAAMmat > 60 (the better stuff) for a much better price than Dynamat is sold > for, his rolls are twice as big, and quality difference is almost > non-existent. (62.5 sq. ft. verus 30 or 32 sq. ft. Dynamat rolls) > > > Oh well. :-/ > > -Brody Z. > > > From: "Scott Walters" > To: > Subject: XDP4000X-List: dynamat experience > Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 20:26:05 -0500 > > -- XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Scott Walters" > > Hi all, > > I've enjoyed the discussion on this list, on and off topic, relating to > audiophile issues in the car. Thought I'd share some discoveries which may > be useful. > > I'm doing a seperate post for each issue for better searchability and > threading in the archives. Starting with the dynamat. > > I've got a 1992 Camry LE (first year of camrys 'new' body style) and > knew I had much to gain in the sound proofing department. As we all > probably know road noise is one of the biggest deterring factors for soundq, > especially in the lower frequencies. > > I ordered 4 packs of dynamat xtreme off of ebay for about $500 including > shipping. I wanted enough to do the entire car. I read what I could on the > web, and then started in by removing my entire interior except the > dashboard. Once down to sheet metal on the inside, I have a water pressure > cleaner and gave the interior a good cleaning with the brush and soap and > then rinsed it a couple of times. I used a couple large rags to soak up > where water collected. I also took this opportunity to steam clean all of > the interior ulpohstry (carpet, seats, and roof) when they were removed. > > Before applying the dynamat, I had a rag and large bottle of rubbing > alcohol. I would scrub the sheet metal down with the dampened alcohol rag > before applying the dynamat. I *highly* recommend this step. > > I started on the trunk lid, and looking back, I wished I would have > picked a place that was not visible. The dynamat all-in-all is very easy to > work with, but it takes some getting use to. I am not a full time installer > by any means. After a while I got the hang of using the largest possible > pieces covering the sheet metal. I also had a small 2" roller which was > indespensable. After sizing the dynamat, I'd cut it into shape, remove the > wax paper and apply. Then use the roller to get out any air bubbles. I > learned quick to try and size/cut the dynamat into pieces that would not > tear when rolled. > > I started in the trunk and worked my way forward covering any piece of > sheet metal that was large enough to handle say a 2" strip. I used the > extra cuttings in the random places they would fit. You could really go > crazy trying to cover every inch of metal, but after hearing the difference, > I now understand that dynamat is NOT for sound absorption but vibration > dampening. As your system hits varying frequencies, its possible for the > metal to vibrate and become speakers themselves (resonating). An > interesting physical phenomenom, but not good for soundq. > > I did the entire trunk, floor, driver and passenger doors (time > consuming), the firewall where I could reach, roof, and transmission area. > I'd say overall the job took 40 hours and I used close to 100 square feet of > dynamat (one entire box left over). > > So once I got my car back together and the system on, I started cranking > it up. Easily, the largest noticeable difference was how my bottom end > tightened up. It's like I got a whole new sub and amp (at the time JL 12W3 > Pro Wedge, Crossfire 150x2 bridged). I cannot put into words how tight the > bass got. > > My original intention was reducing road noise, and I was a little > disappointed in that department. But that was more my lack of understanding > the difference between vibration dampening and sound absorption. I have a > radio shack SPL meter, and with no music, would range from 70-85dbs (bumps), > and now range 70-80dbs. The road noise is noticeably less and the ride is > definitely more 'quiet' but pales in comparision the effect of the bass. > The car has a much more 'solid' feel to it driving, and a noticeable > difference in the pitch of the passenger and driver side doors closing, > compared to the rear doors, which i did not do. > > It was not an easy job, and much more time consuming than i thought > (isn't it always), but well worth the labor of love. > > So at this point, I am probably going to use the extra pack of dynamat > to apply a second layer in the trunk and find some material specifically > designed for sound absorption to apply on top of the dynamat. Any > recommendations? > > scott > > -- Scott Walters -PacketPusher ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:36 PM PST US From: "Leo G. Divingracia III" Subject: XDP4000X-List: Re: XDP4000X-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 02/24/03 --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Leo G. Divingracia III" gonna kill 2 birds with 1 stone... > From: "Scott Walters" > Subject: XDP4000X-List: dynamat experience > > My original intention was reducing road noise, and I was a little > disappointed in that department. But that was more my lack of understanding > the difference between vibration dampening and sound absorption. I have a > radio shack SPL meter, and with no music, would range from 70-85dbs (bumps), > and now range 70-80dbs. The road noise is noticeably less and the ride is > definitely more 'quiet' but pales in comparision the effect of the bass. > The car has a much more 'solid' feel to it driving, and a noticeable > difference in the pitch of the passenger and driver side doors closing, > compared to the rear doors, which i did not do. > > It was not an easy job, and much more time consuming than i thought > (isn't it always), but well worth the labor of love. > > So at this point, I am probably going to use the extra pack of dynamat > to apply a second layer in the trunk and find some material specifically > designed for sound absorption to apply on top of the dynamat. Any > recommendations? > > scott > > first, there is no such thing as a total sound free car. you have so many holes, like the firewall and stuff. i remember a CAR STEREO REVIEW article from the mid 1990s when they did an entire jetta with dynamat. IIRC, they spent close to $1000 for the car. what did they get? about a 3db reduction in noise. their final conclusion? they wouldnt do it again... now, you can try to seal as much holes and SEAMS. the seams will be the ones killing your search for silence. try duct taping a small strip of dynamat over the seams of 2 panels of dynamat. look, what you are doing is trying to change the resonant frequency of the panels. you can do that 2 ways: 1. change the material of the panel. lead and concrete are great materials. but you know why you dont see a lot of cars made with them... :) although, again in the mid 90s, CAR AUDIO & ELECTRONICS did an article of a car that had the subwoofer enclosure made of concrete... 2. add something to the panel. this will change the resonant frequency. that's what dynamat did and made tons of money. now, again, back in the mid 90s, when car audio was MY LIFE... a friend who owns a shop that i almost lived in, told me he was trying roofing material. it's not as thick as dynamat (and remember, back then, dynamat was the only game in town) and he was getting similar performances. but you had to use spray adhesive since it didnt come with any. and it smelled bad. but for the price, it was worth a shot. > From: "Scott Walters" > Subject: XDP4000X-List: autosound 2000 soundstage, imaging > > When reading the www.audionutz.com site, I almost went into shock, when he > said the goal of the center image was to get it floating over the center of > the dashboard. One of the biggest things I love about the 4000, is using > the time delay to nail the image right in the steering wheel (mids and > tweets are in kicks). > > I've never competed, so I tune my system purely for myself. I've always > been a bit baffled by reading various posts that say to do RTA and tuning > stuff from the center of the car. I don't sit in the center of the car. I > want it to sound best in the drivers seat. > > So once I got the Autosound discs and was going over the imaging and sound > stage disc, I realized that the problem with putting the image right in > front of me, is that the soundstage gets 'squished' on the left. There is a > track where there is a drum beat that pans from left to right, over 7 beats, > and it moves very little on beats 1,2,3,4 (center) and then 'jumps' across > the stage for beats 5,6,7. Beats 5,6,7 actually create a better sense of > 'width', but I love the center image. > > How do you guys setup your system for image and soundstage? Is sitting off > center, putting the proper soundstage, center image at odds with each other? > > scott > > since you said you dont compete, you can place the image and staging where ever you want it to be. but IASCA rules (well at least from the 2000 rule book i have somewhere) says that when using the test track from the official IASCA test CD, the image must be on the center of the dash, as high as possible. before i had the xdp-210, i just had the regular balance control. i just tried to center it as much as possible. ever since i had a digital delay, using the various test tracks, i can get the main voice right under the rear view mirror. sometimes, i can get it to extend outside the windshield. of course this sucks for the passenger. but after going to an IASCA event a few years ago and learning the certain judging portion doesnt require 2 judges (sitting in driver's and passenger's seats) anymore, i went and bought the xdp-210. only the driver's side is where the judge sits. YMMV.... -- Leo G. Divinagracia III ldivinag@csuhayward.edu zzzzz ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:04 PM PST US From: "Patrick Freeland" Subject: XDP4000X-List: reply to scott posts --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Patrick Freeland" Scott, I first got to say that it was such a joy seeing al your posts in the forum....we all love to give, elaborate and expand upon our knowledge as well as express our confussion and discovery. What am about to say may be longwinded, but I think it may help you see some options or new ideas. I for one think i found the perfect 3 way speaker system combo.....the Alpine Flagship. (1.5" tweet, 4" midrange and 6.5" midbass). These speakers just keep coming and the midbass is extreme....(they run around 700-800 dollars). I am able to do this due to very high power put to them. I also have this reommendation to the rest of the post in here: check out the JL amps.....the power handling and options when using the 4 way setup in the 4k are PERFECT. I have 150 watts going to midbass, 75 to each midrange, 75 to each tweet, another 75 going to a set of high crossed ambient tweets (both tweets ran off of the tweet output) and 500 going to the JL 10W7. Also scott, realize that the 4k has poor xover settings.....the variable slopes are nice, but even then, they are oddly selectable (only one may have 72 or 36, or another has only 24 or 72) At any rate scott, take the best of the 4k settings, and compensate for the lacking in a quality amp with active xovers. (like the JL amps. And yes, stay away from passive x overs if possible. here is how mine is set.....and it is beautiful...very little distortion and very loud: ambient tweets 20k - 15k, kickpanel tweets 20k - 5.03, midange 5.03 - 200, midbass 200 - 60, and sub 78 - 18. Most of my slopes are 24 and 72 with the ambient tweets set at 12. Yes, dynomat does improve everything. My results found were that my music as a whole was much much louder at lower volumes, and my road noise decreased moderately. You have inspired me to ass some more to my trunk and firewalls. Again, as many have said, your stereo image and placement will greatly depend on how close your left side speakers are together, how close your right side speakers are together, and how far apart your left is from your right. Time alignment is great, but when used with very wide speakers placement from left to right, and each side speakers close together....very little time allignment will be needed and can be better tweeked if needed. Lastly, if you have graced me this far, if you want to improve your center or placement try this. On your 4k mute everything except the tweets, then place pink noice on mono (or i belive mono it is called uncorrelated) and adjust your time alignment accordingly to where you hear the high end sound in the very middle of your dash. Then mute the tweets and do the same to the remaining speakers. That should drastically sharpen your image, but of coarse, a lot of the sharpness of the image will depend on speaker placement. After doing this, then go listen to the 7 drum beats.... you will smile Also, you can' go wrong getting a well angled kickpanel made out of custom molded fiberglass. I too went with Q logic at first, but was convinced out of it when told of its limitations. Q logic does not maximize the trully best angle for the speakers....some do, but many don't. In any effect, your midrange driver is the most important driver for setting the stage and must be placed directly next to the tweet for the best image. That is way makes the sharpness, and if all three (midbass included) can be placed together in some kind of custom molded placement, the benefits are even more austounding. If you have read this far, I appreicate your listening. Honestly, I know I have lots to learn, but i would to answer qustions in person....call me at 561 379 - 5336....any one. I live for this stuff when I'm not counseling (career) It be great to get to know your opinions and viewpoints. SQ rules!!!!! Patrick