Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:19 PM - Anyone have one for sale?? (NOTGSXR@aol.com)
2. 02:21 PM - Re: Anyone have one for sale?? (Stylnconcepts@aol.com)
3. 03:36 PM - Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... (Brody Z)
4. 04:08 PM - Re: Anyone have one for sale?? (Bobby Braun)
5. 04:09 PM - Re: Anyone have one for sale?? (NOTGSXR@aol.com)
6. 04:10 PM - Re: Anyone have one for sale?? (NOTGSXR@aol.com)
7. 06:00 PM - Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... (Roland M)
8. 06:16 PM - Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... (dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle))
9. 07:45 PM - Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... (Bobby Braun)
10. 08:43 PM - Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... (Roland M)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Anyone have one for sale?? |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: NOTGSXR@aol.com
A friend is looking for one to replace his XDP-210EQ...... Thanks.
Dan
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone have one for sale?? |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: Stylnconcepts@aol.com
i have one I might part with
Message 3
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| Subject: | XDP-4000x Toslink Input... |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Brody Z" <dremgragen@hotmail.com>
Hey Matt, you posted this to the list awhile back, but I still had it
because it was interesting. We have been talking about this unit on the car
audio forum I frequent and here's some information that one of our elite
members posted about the unit from looking at the service manual:
So the service manual I have is dated 1998, with a supplement/upgrade dated
1999. A quick review :
1. This little gem has Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion !!!! What a
pleasant surprise The digital input is received by a TC9245F DIR, which
directly feeds an SM5844AF sample rate converter :
http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/td/en/ASSP/Audio_ICs/en_20021016_TC9245F_datasheet.pdf
http://www.npcamerica.com/Datasheets/SM5844.pdf
The asynchronous sample rate conversion allows the DACs, and in fact all of
the DSP, inside the processor to be clocked by a local master clock, rather
than by a clock recovered form the incoming S/PDIF digital data stream. It
does this by performing huge interpolation of the data, basically
calculating the correct digital outputs at the new points in time. Result :
JITTER HAMMER !!
For those that have followed my previous threads,
TC9245F + SM5844AF = CS8420
Very well done indeed, Sony. Especially for a 1998 car audio product (let's
face it, car audio is like the bastard stepchild of high-end audio). Sony
does their clocking RIGHT
2. DACs : 1998, crystal CS4329. Upgraded in 1999 to CS4390.
Oversampled, delta-sigma type converters.
3. Volume control : Crystal CS3310.
Pretty simple filters, mix of OPA2132 & NJM5532 opamps. A damn fine
execution IMHO, especially for the time period. I think it would have been
difficult to find ANY audio processor ... pro, home, or car ... to rival
this level of engineering 6 years ago.
Then I told him a bit more information about the unit that I had involving
the crossovers and his response was:
Drem VERY interesting ... so Sony uses FIR filters? I think I've talked
about FIR vs. IIR in the past. FIR definitely has some strong advantages ...
there's no feedback in FIR filter structures, so nasty things like "limit
cycle" oscillations and other quantization noise feedback mechanisms are
completely avoided. You also have more flexibilty with phase response ...
including perfectly linear phase ... with FIR (unless you include phase
equalization sections in IIR, which can add some non-ideal behavior on their
own).
Biggest downside of FIR? Requires LOTS more computation for comparable
"steepness" to IIR (unless there's some substantial decimation taking place,
but that's another story). Sounds like Sony made the DSP investment to pull
it off.
Man, I'm liking this Sony execution more & more Asynch SRC for best
clocking, FIR crossovers ... too bad that xover is so limited. But now I
understand why there seems to be a little cult following around it, and such
work put into modification possibilities
I thought I'd post this in case you didn't know any of it. It was a great
learning experience for me, and made me re-appreciate my 4000X that more.
DAMN THAT CROSSOVER SELECTION!
=D
-Brody Zitterkopf
----Original Message Follows----
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: XDP4000X-List: XDP-4000x Toslink Input...
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Hey Guys,
I was wondering if anyone knew why the Toslink inputs on the Sony XDP-4000x
are hard set at a 480000 sample rate? It will not auto-sync at any other
sample rate such as the common CD rate of 44.1k. This means that all of
the Sony Changers and head unit CD outputs have to be up converted from the
native 44.1k sample rate to the 48k required by the 4k. This just doesn't
make any sense to me from a performance or quality standpoint. It would
keep 4k owners from just hooking up any generic cd changer to the unit, but
that seems a little subversive.
Any thoughts or information on this would be most appreciated.
Matt Dralle
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone have one for sale?? |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Bobby Braun" <bobbybraun@comcast.net>
Is he looking to replace his 210eq with another 210eq or a 4000x, I have a
210eq in very good shape, only used for a few months if that's what you're
up for.
----- Original Message -----
From: <NOTGSXR@aol.com>
Subject: XDP4000X-List: Anyone have one for sale??
> --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: NOTGSXR@aol.com
>
> A friend is looking for one to replace his XDP-210EQ...... Thanks.
>
> Dan
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone have one for sale?? |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: NOTGSXR@aol.com
In a message dated 2/17/04 7:09:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bobbybraun@comcast.net writes:
Is he looking to replace his 210eq with another 210eq or a 4000x, I have a
210eq in very good shape, only used for a few months if that's what you're
up for.
4000X! thanks.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone have one for sale?? |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: NOTGSXR@aol.com
In a message dated 2/17/04 5:20:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, NOTGSXR@aol.com
writes:
A friend is looking for one to replace his XDP-210EQ...... Thanks.
Dan
let me clarify this.. he is looking for an XDP-4000X to replace the
210EQ.....sorry for the confusion!
Dan
Message 7
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| Subject: | XDP-4000x Toslink Input... |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Roland M" <mdx400@hotmail.com>
>--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Brody Z" <dremgragen@hotmail.com>
>
>
>2. DACs : 1998, crystal CS4329. Upgraded in 1999 to CS4390.
>Oversampled, delta-sigma type converters.
>
>-Brody Zitterkopf
>
>
Brody, nice research/discovery and explanation of those circuits! :)
However I have one quick question regarging your "#2" (quoted above). When
you say in 1998 they were using [Crystal Semiconductor] CS4329s and in 1999
they were using CS4390s, do you mean that the "1st Gen" XDP-4000X units used
CS4329 D/As and then they changed them to CS4390s in the latter "2nd Gen?"
units?
I was just a little confused about that and how you have the dates and
different D/As listed. Did you mean they used different D/As depending on
the manufacture date/series of the 4000X or are you referring to two
different products?
(Was the CS4390 simply Crystal Semiconductor's replacement chip for a
discontinued CS4329?)
Roland M.
Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage.
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/
Message 8
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"RE: XDP4000X-List: XDP-4000x Toslink Input..." (Feb 17, 6:06pm)
| Subject: | XDP-4000x Toslink Input... |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle)
>--------------
>--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Roland M" <mdx400@hotmail.com>
>>--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Brody Z" <dremgragen@hotmail.com>
>>
>>2. DACs : 1998, crystal CS4329. Upgraded in 1999 to CS4390.
>>Oversampled, delta-sigma type converters.
>>
>>-Brody Zitterkopf
>>
>
>Brody, nice research/discovery and explanation of those circuits! :)
>
>However I have one quick question regarging your "#2" (quoted above). When
>you say in 1998 they were using [Crystal Semiconductor] CS4329s and in 1999
>they were using CS4390s, do you mean that the "1st Gen" XDP-4000X units used
>CS4329 D/As and then they changed them to CS4390s in the latter "2nd Gen?"
>units?
>
>I was just a little confused about that and how you have the dates and
>different D/As listed. Did you mean they used different D/As depending on
>the manufacture date/series of the 4000X or are you referring to two
>different products?
>
>(Was the CS4390 simply Crystal Semiconductor's replacement chip for a
>discontinued CS4329?)
>
>Roland M.
>--------------
Here is a line-card on the CS4390 chip:
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P32.html
Interesting...
Matt
--
Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Bobby Braun" <bobbybraun@comcast.net>
Really interesting, anyone have any word how the Clarion DRZ-9255 stacks up
to these comparisons? I'm having a hard time finding anything too technical
on the unit, and how about the Alpine setup also? Have they honestly and
compeletely surpassed what Sony started back in 98 with the 4000x and before
with the XES? Why is the answer so hard to find?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brody Z" <dremgragen@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: XDP4000X-List: XDP-4000x Toslink Input...
> --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Brody Z" <dremgragen@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Hey Matt, you posted this to the list awhile back, but I still had it
> because it was interesting. We have been talking about this unit on the
car
> audio forum I frequent and here's some information that one of our elite
> members posted about the unit from looking at the service manual:
>
> So the service manual I have is dated 1998, with a supplement/upgrade
dated
> 1999. A quick review :
>
> 1. This little gem has Asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion !!!! What a
> pleasant surprise The digital input is received by a TC9245F DIR, which
> directly feeds an SM5844AF sample rate converter :
>
>
http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/td/en/ASSP/Audio_ICs/en_20021016_TC9245F_datasheet.pdf
> http://www.npcamerica.com/Datasheets/SM5844.pdf
>
> The asynchronous sample rate conversion allows the DACs, and in fact all
of
> the DSP, inside the processor to be clocked by a local master clock,
rather
> than by a clock recovered form the incoming S/PDIF digital data stream. It
> does this by performing huge interpolation of the data, basically
> calculating the correct digital outputs at the new points in time. Result
:
> JITTER HAMMER !!
>
> For those that have followed my previous threads,
> TC9245F + SM5844AF = CS8420
>
> Very well done indeed, Sony. Especially for a 1998 car audio product
(let's
> face it, car audio is like the bastard stepchild of high-end audio). Sony
> does their clocking RIGHT
>
> 2. DACs : 1998, crystal CS4329. Upgraded in 1999 to CS4390.
> Oversampled, delta-sigma type converters.
>
> 3. Volume control : Crystal CS3310.
>
> Pretty simple filters, mix of OPA2132 & NJM5532 opamps. A damn fine
> execution IMHO, especially for the time period. I think it would have been
> difficult to find ANY audio processor ... pro, home, or car ... to rival
> this level of engineering 6 years ago.
>
> Then I told him a bit more information about the unit that I had involving
> the crossovers and his response was:
>
>
> Drem VERY interesting ... so Sony uses FIR filters? I think I've talked
> about FIR vs. IIR in the past. FIR definitely has some strong advantages
...
> there's no feedback in FIR filter structures, so nasty things like "limit
> cycle" oscillations and other quantization noise feedback mechanisms are
> completely avoided. You also have more flexibilty with phase response ...
> including perfectly linear phase ... with FIR (unless you include phase
> equalization sections in IIR, which can add some non-ideal behavior on
their
> own).
>
> Biggest downside of FIR? Requires LOTS more computation for comparable
> "steepness" to IIR (unless there's some substantial decimation taking
place,
> but that's another story). Sounds like Sony made the DSP investment to
pull
> it off.
>
> Man, I'm liking this Sony execution more & more Asynch SRC for best
> clocking, FIR crossovers ... too bad that xover is so limited. But now I
> understand why there seems to be a little cult following around it, and
such
> work put into modification possibilities
>
>
> I thought I'd post this in case you didn't know any of it. It was a great
> learning experience for me, and made me re-appreciate my 4000X that more.
> DAMN THAT CROSSOVER SELECTION!
>
> =D
>
> -Brody Zitterkopf
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
> To: xdp4000x-list@matronics.com
> Subject: XDP4000X-List: XDP-4000x Toslink Input...
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:10:22 -0800
>
> --> XDP4000X-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
>
> Hey Guys,
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew why the Toslink inputs on the Sony
XDP-4000x
> are hard set at a 480000 sample rate? It will not auto-sync at any other
> sample rate such as the common CD rate of 44.1k. This means that all of
> the Sony Changers and head unit CD outputs have to be up converted from
the
> native 44.1k sample rate to the 48k required by the 4k. This just doesn't
> make any sense to me from a performance or quality standpoint. It would
> keep 4k owners from just hooking up any generic cd changer to the unit,
but
> that seems a little subversive.
>
> Any thoughts or information on this would be most appreciated.
>
> Matt Dralle
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
>
> Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: XDP-4000x Toslink Input... |
--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Roland M" <mdx400@hotmail.com>
>--> XDP4000X-List message posted by: "Bobby Braun" <bobbybraun@comcast.net>
>
>and how about the Alpine setup also? Have they honestly and
>compeletely surpassed what Sony started back in 98 with the 4000x and
>before
>with the XES? Why is the answer so hard to find?
>
>
I'm guessing you're talking about the F#1 Status gear?
While I'm not really an expert the F#1 does seem to be "ahead" of the
XDP-4000X/C90 setup though I don't know about 2nd Gen XES stuff--that was
pretty well done.
But the F#1 is kind of a different beast as well. For one thing it's trump
card is the fact that it has DVD-A support. That alone gives it a good
advantage because you're starting out with a higher quality format/source to
begin with. Plus the F#1 stuff is really multi-channel/surround oriented.
In addition to DVD-A its got DD and DTS decoding, which, altogether really
are more "modern" than a "simple" 2ch CD player source with EQ...
Now that isn't to say that just because we're dealing with CD and "only"
stereo/2ch that it is "worse" than surround, but you've got to admit that
the DVD-A aspect at least does count for something.
The F#1 gear is indeed impressive and from its price I'd really hope that it
outdoes the XDP-4kX/C90 combo, even talking about CD playback. The 4kX is
an excellent processor which features one of the most versatile
digital-domain EQs in car audio, with solid build quality and internals to
back it up. But the one flaw in the system has always been, in most
people's view the xover selection. Perhaps it is optimal for the very high
end Sony speakers Sony showcased with processors like the 4kX and with the
XES systems but other than that it is usually not really optimal--a
complaint shared by many here as you know.
I dunno about the XES, as I said, but I don't think comparing the F#1 (if
that is what you were referring to) and the C90/XDP-4000X is really a fair
comparison. For one thing the entire F#1 system costs several times what
the C90/4000X ever cost, I'm pretty sure.
Still I never liked the rather dorky F#1 HU design. Then again everyone
praises it for its simplicity. I say simplicity, schmimplicity! LOL! But
I *can* see *why* they made it that way. While the rest of the car audio
market and related markets like "sport-compacts" and the "mainstream" SUV
market, etc. looks for "razzle dazzle" and "ooh aah" type stuff the people
that fork over the dough for stuff as expensive as the F#1 gear almost
always DON'T want all the techno-razzle dazzle type interfaces and "modern"
looks.
They want something simple and statement-making. Alpine could just as
easily made something with a similar interface to their lower-end units and
still kept it just as high-end while sounding the same. But it would
honestly get "pooh-poohed" by their target audience. In a market where
people are buying stuff like the Denon DCT-Z1 and actually liking it's
"simplicity" :cough: aka dumb looks :cough: (:cough: just my opinion don't
kill me :cough:) and the "statment" and "air" of "high end" snobbery it puts
out you don't want to make a product that is all "bling bling" and has
animated screens, flashing lights, GUI interfaces, etc. because no one's
gonna buy it!
Anyhow just my $0.02 (though I'm unsure of what I was trying to say anyway!
LOL!)
Roland M.
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