Today's Message Index:
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1. 03:36 PM - Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A bit Squirrely??? (Roland M)
2. 03:47 PM - Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A bit Squirrely??? (Roland M)
3. 03:52 PM - Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A bit Squirrely??? (Roland M)
4. 04:03 PM - Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A bit Squirrely??? (Randy Visentine)
Message 1
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| Subject: | XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A |
bit Squirrely???
>From: "Randy Visentine" <randyman@gmail.com>
>To: xdp4000x-list@matronics.com
>Subject: XDP4000X-List: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A
>bit Squirrely???
>Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 05:09:53 -0500
>
>Even when the iPod is selected on power-up, the C90 still does a quick
>power-down/reboot as it re-detects the PAC Unilink Adaptor (but it works
>fine after that).
>
Unfortunately the whole issue just sounds like a compatibility issue with
the adapter. Though UniLink is a "standard" there are a lot of variances
and hooking up non-standard (and sometimes even standard) gear you can get
bus reset problems. Myself I have two devices on my bus that aren't really
completely Sony standard. One is the MDX-400 which was not officially
intended to be used as a slave, and the other is a Connects2 Sony-Sony
Network Walkman-UniLink integration adapter. At times I'll get random bus
resets (because of the MDX-400) but they don't happen enough to be that
annoying. From the Connects2 adapter sometimes text from the Network
Walkman freezes or stops working until you manually change tracks; also a
few times the adapter has just failed to show up on the changer list and
unplugging it and plugging it back in is the only solution (short of a reset
from the HU).
Of course your problem sounds far more severe unfortunately, which means you
should probably either return the device you're using or try to get the
manufacturer to sort it out with a updated device or firmware update. Since
aftermarket companies don't necessarily have all the information about the
UniLink protocol available like Sony does, aftermarket accessories can have
their problems when used with certain combinations of UniLink devices.
Furthermore even Sony has made their own compatibility problems in rare
cases I believe. For the most part UniLink works pretty well whatever you
connect, but there are quirks :(
>Once the C90 "Freezes Up" (from powering-up with the C90's internal CD or
>AM/FM Tuner selected), I am able to do a "Reset" from the C90's front-panel
>"Reset" button, and it works fine after that (until I power off again with
>anything other than the iPod selected). But this entails resetting the
>C90's Clock and the Display angle every time this happens (but this is MUCH
>easier than removing my passenger seat to un-plug the PAC Unilink Adaptor
>from the XDP!). So the iPod works, but it is buggy to say the least...
>
>PS - This also happens when I use my XA-C30 3-Input Unilink box into the
>XDP-4k (happens with or w/o the XA-C30). Also happens with and without a
>Sony 848x CD-Changer connected to the XA-C30.
>
Now that^should not be happening. You could have something as easily
overlooked as a ground loop or power line noise that is causing the bus
resets to occur. So you might want to sniff those out if possible. Even if
a ground loop doesn't cause any audible problems (like power on/off pops or
alternator noise), you could still have one occuring between UniLink
components that is causing the problem. Since the XA-C30 has it's own power
connection this could be a possible source of the problem. Also for UniLink
components that have no power connection, you could actually try grounding a
screw on the metal chassis (if applicable) of suspect UniLink components, to
a ground point on the vehicle to see if you get any improvement.
>Does anyone make a different Unilink Input Adaptor that does not cause this
>behavior with an XDP-4k + C90?
Really, you shouldn't be getting that behaviour, particularly not with an
XA-C30... I have a feeling it's less the adapter's fault and perhaps the
problem lies elsewhere.
>Or is there anything else I can do to
>use the Analog RCA Changer input on the XDP-4k? (PS - I need the
>C90's AM/FM Tuner, so I need the XDP's "Master" RCA Input for that
>functionallity).
You could use the changer trick but you'd need a "ghost" changer just
playing a CD on repeat telling the XDP to input audio from that input and
then you instead connect it to what you need to input, instead of the
changer's audio output.
>Making my own Unilink adaptor is not out of the question
>(I have extra Unilink Cables and descent soldering/circuitry skills), but
>I'd need a schematic (and I assume it would be a better design than the PAC
>Unilink adaptor I already have?).
It might not be out of the question but many have tried and the results have
never been all that great. If you're really looking to homebrew it you
should check out the GNUNILINK project, if it still exists, anyway...
>I have seen the Unilink-to-iPod "Control" type adaptors, but everything I
>have read indicates those "lock out" the iPod's front-panel controls, and
>force you to use the Sony Head-Unit's controls and display to navigate the
>iPod (and we all know you can't read the C90's display before 8PM if your
>life depended on it), so I'd prefer to control the iPod from the iPod's
>front-panel click-wheel (this rules out the Unilink-to-iPod "Control" type
>interfaces IIRC). Is this correct?
Yes it is correct. This is a limitation that is part of the design of the
iPod. There are two remote modes available for the iPod. Simple and Full.
Full remote mode is required for text/track data/time transfer but using
full remote mode disables the iPod's main unit controls. Simple remote mode
on the other hand can interface the iPod for simple things like track
up/down, play, pause, etc. but in this mode data cannot be transferred from
the iPod to the controlling device; however in simple remote mode the iPod's
controls and display remain active. So it's either/or, you can't have both.
>I also have a CDX-805 and a CDX-848x 10-Disc Unilink Changer I'd be willing
>to bastardize for this project, but other means are preferred before I kill
>a perfectly fine Unilink CD Changer (and I'd need specific instructions
>before I attempt this)...
Why kill one of them??? Just set the changer to analog, put any CD you
don't need in there and put it on repeat all... Instead of connecting the
changer line audio output to the XDP, just connect the iPod's line-level
output and there you go--that's the "changer trick" in a nutshell.
>One more Q concerning the iPod - I bought an "iPod Dock Cable" that has RCA
>Outs and connections for +12V for charging the iPod's battery. The
>benefits
>over a 1/8" Headphone Cable are that it bypasses the iPod's Headphone
>Amplifier Stage, and provides a true Fixed Level "Line Out" (volume
>independent), plus facilities for charging the iPod from the Vehicle's
>electrical system. The drawback is I get odd noise from the iPod when it
>is
>charging (ground loops / differences in ground potential causing noise to
>get carried over the audio shields).
Though it may just be a poorly designed/cheaply made adapter, I'm thinking
from this that you may actually have a ground loop problem somewhere else in
the system that is causing all these anomolies to occur, as I mentioned
above. I would definitely be sure you don't have one before condemning
components.
Roland M.
_________________________________________________________________
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A |
bit Squirrely???
>From: "Randy Visentine" <randyman@gmail.com>
>To: xdp4000x-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: XDP4000X-List: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor
>- A bit Squirrely???
>Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:28:10 -0500
>
>Maybe I'm mistaken, but everything I have read indicates that any iPod
>adaptor that "Takes Over" the iPod from the Head-Unit locks out the iPod's
>controls (maybe this is an iPod issue?).
Yep, explained in my previous email ;)
>And I'm not sure if that XA-110IP
>box will even work on older Unilink systems (it says for 2006 and newer
>units - I guess Sony "Fixed" the Unilink Protocol for the new units, but
>"Broke" it's backwards compatibility for older units?). If only a new Sony
>HU (with a readable display) would work with the XDP4k :-(
It *should* work. But really that phrase could be used for all UniLink
products except where specific compatibility issues are noted by Sony.
However in this case I think Sony put the silly disclaimer about 2006+
because they didn't want to deal with people with older units [insert
rolleyes smiley here, lol]. Many people have reported using the XA-110iP on
older UniLink HUs without problems. However it does use full remote mode
and navigating the iPod on a UniLink head (which was never meant for
navigating much more than 10 CDs in a changer or two) is extremely
difficult, yes. This goes for any brand of iPod integration adapter for any
brand of aftermarket or factory HU that does text display on the HU--because
they all use full remote mode the iPod itself becomes sort of like a server,
slaved to the adapter and no adjustments can be made on the iPod.
Yet one more reason among thousands, why iPod stinks really, but that's
beside the point I guess.
>On the noise - The XDP and C90 *already* have dedicated 8Ga Grounds (the
>iPod charging wires are tacked on with the XDP - so its ground potential is
>identical), and all 8 system grounds terminate at a single point ("Star
>Grounding" to an unused 17mm Seat Belt Bolt in the X-Tra Cab).
Well perhaps I should withdraw the previous ground loop suspiscions but as
I'm sure you know, ground loops are quite tricky and can be present anywhere
and can be very hard to eliminate :(
Roland M.
_________________________________________________________________
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A |
bit Squirrely???
>From: "Randy Visentine" <randyman@gmail.com>
>To: xdp4000x-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: XDP4000X-List: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor
>- A bit Squirrely???
>Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:49:35 -0500
>
>One thing that scares me a little - That "Connects2" adaptor has a
>disclaimer that says "Note: Not suitable for use in conjunction with a CD
>changer, or with 1st generation iPods."
>
The simple remote mode Connects2 adapter is their "002" or number two iPod
interface, and yep it just offers the simple controls with no
text/time/track info and leaves control on the iPod. Personally I think
these adapters are nearly useless because they cost as much as full
integration adapters but they don't really do all that much more than an aux
input adapter, which is usually cheaper (e.g. XA-300). But if you think
it's worth it, then by all means. Note that Connects2 lost their USA
distributor but they got a new one recently plus I think PAC has some of
their products, rebadged and in black (instead of silver) "little boxes" ;)
I don't think PAC offers the #2 iPod adapter from Connects2 though.
>I'm not sure if this means you'd need something like a XA-C30 to use a
>CD-Changer (since the iPod adaptor eats up your Unilink connnection), or if
>there are issues with passing the adaptor's protocol through such Unilink
>units (or even passing through a XDP-4k). Any ideas?
>
That's exactly what it means. My Connects2 Network Walkman adapter works
pretty much fine with my XA-U40 (predecessor to the XA-C30) MCA. So as long
as you have an MCA it should work with other devices. Again emphasise the
"should" because there really aren't any guarantees apart from the
possibility of returning the device if the retailer allows it.
Roland M.
_________________________________________________________________
http://newlivehotmail.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor - A |
bit Squirrely???
Thanks for the reply, Roland.
These issues happen with or without the XA-C30 in the loop. The PAC Unilink
adaptor gets any needed power via Bus Power (no other connections - just a
Unilink Plug, 6" of Wire, and a tiny box at the end with the
emulation electronics in it). I don't think this has any kind of "Firmware"
perse, and I doubt PAC has any interest in developing this product for a 10
year old C90 head unit... FYI - the C90 simply reads "CD2" and indicates
"Track 0" and the Time display stays at "00:00:00".
My grounds are all good as gold (I use Star Grounding of all audio grounds
including C90 and XDP), and there are no other Unilink devices in the chain
(C90 > XDP > PAC Unilink).
I eliminated the iPod's induced noise by adding a toggle switch to the
iPod's +12 feed. So now, I when I'm listening, I play off the iPod's
battery, and I charge the iPod when I'm away from the truck or when I take
it inside to sync it.
Overall, it sounds great, but the PAC Bugs are really annoying (it even
happens if I power down with the iPod selected - it is 100% spouraddic). I
have tried feverishly to get a hold of the Connects-2-Audio version of the
iPod Adaptor (the one that still lets you use the iPod's Click Wheel), but
they seem impossible to find in the USA, and the UK Distributor won't ship
to the USA...
Anyway, this will probably end up being a blessing in discuise, as this will
likely accelerate my dive into doing a Car PC with an RME Audio Interface
(RME Multiface 8-Channel Analog Outs) and eliminating the C90/XDP/iPod
altogether (that has been my end goal TBH - the C90 and XDP will go into my
secondary ride)
The other system upgrades are going very well. I swapped to a JL 450/4 on
Front Stage (Bi-Amped), a Rockford T20001BD on Subs, and I'm building
ANOTHER new sub box, as well as doing new door panels and a-pilars for my
front stage. Oodels of fun (and TONS of Fiberglass/Bondo). I also got my
200Amp Altwernator, so I still have a lot ahead of me...
Rock and roll
Randy V
On 7/26/07, Roland M <mdx400@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: "Randy Visentine" <randyman@gmail.com>
> >To: xdp4000x-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: XDP4000X-List: XPD-4K + C90 with PAC Unilink Aux Input Adaptor -
> A
> >bit Squirrely???
> >Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 05:09:53 -0500
> >
> >Even when the iPod is selected on power-up, the C90 still does a quick
> >power-down/reboot as it re-detects the PAC Unilink Adaptor (but it works
> >fine after that).
> >
> Unfortunately the whole issue just sounds like a compatibility issue with
> the adapter. Though UniLink is a "standard" there are a lot of variances
> and hooking up non-standard (and sometimes even standard) gear you can get
> bus reset problems. Myself I have two devices on my bus that aren't
> really
> completely Sony standard. One is the MDX-400 which was not officially
> intended to be used as a slave, and the other is a Connects2 Sony-Sony
> Network Walkman-UniLink integration adapter. At times I'll get random bus
> resets (because of the MDX-400) but they don't happen enough to be that
> annoying. From the Connects2 adapter sometimes text from the Network
> Walkman freezes or stops working until you manually change tracks; also a
> few times the adapter has just failed to show up on the changer list and
> unplugging it and plugging it back in is the only solution (short of a
> reset
> from the HU).
>
> Of course your problem sounds far more severe unfortunately, which means
> you
> should probably either return the device you're using or try to get the
> manufacturer to sort it out with a updated device or firmware
> update. Since
> aftermarket companies don't necessarily have all the information about the
> UniLink protocol available like Sony does, aftermarket accessories can
> have
> their problems when used with certain combinations of UniLink devices.
> Furthermore even Sony has made their own compatibility problems in rare
> cases I believe. For the most part UniLink works pretty well whatever you
> connect, but there are quirks :(
>
> >Once the C90 "Freezes Up" (from powering-up with the C90's internal CD or
> >AM/FM Tuner selected), I am able to do a "Reset" from the C90's
> front-panel
> >"Reset" button, and it works fine after that (until I power off again
> with
> >anything other than the iPod selected). But this entails resetting the
> >C90's Clock and the Display angle every time this happens (but this is
> MUCH
> >easier than removing my passenger seat to un-plug the PAC Unilink Adaptor
> >from the XDP!). So the iPod works, but it is buggy to say the least...
> >
> >PS - This also happens when I use my XA-C30 3-Input Unilink box into the
> >XDP-4k (happens with or w/o the XA-C30). Also happens with and without a
> >Sony 848x CD-Changer connected to the XA-C30.
> >
>
> Now that^should not be happening. You could have something as easily
> overlooked as a ground loop or power line noise that is causing the bus
> resets to occur. So you might want to sniff those out if possible. Even
> if
> a ground loop doesn't cause any audible problems (like power on/off pops
> or
> alternator noise), you could still have one occuring between UniLink
> components that is causing the problem. Since the XA-C30 has it's own
> power
> connection this could be a possible source of the problem. Also for
> UniLink
> components that have no power connection, you could actually try grounding
> a
> screw on the metal chassis (if applicable) of suspect UniLink components,
> to
> a ground point on the vehicle to see if you get any improvement.
>
> >Does anyone make a different Unilink Input Adaptor that does not cause
> this
> >behavior with an XDP-4k + C90?
> Really, you shouldn't be getting that behaviour, particularly not with an
> XA-C30... I have a feeling it's less the adapter's fault and perhaps the
> problem lies elsewhere.
>
> >Or is there anything else I can do to
> >use the Analog RCA Changer input on the XDP-4k? (PS - I need the
> >C90's AM/FM Tuner, so I need the XDP's "Master" RCA Input for that
> >functionallity).
>
> You could use the changer trick but you'd need a "ghost" changer just
> playing a CD on repeat telling the XDP to input audio from that input and
> then you instead connect it to what you need to input, instead of the
> changer's audio output.
>
>
> >Making my own Unilink adaptor is not out of the question
> >(I have extra Unilink Cables and descent soldering/circuitry skills), but
> >I'd need a schematic (and I assume it would be a better design than the
> PAC
> >Unilink adaptor I already have?).
> It might not be out of the question but many have tried and the results
> have
> never been all that great. If you're really looking to homebrew it you
> should check out the GNUNILINK project, if it still exists, anyway...
>
> >I have seen the Unilink-to-iPod "Control" type adaptors, but everything I
> >have read indicates those "lock out" the iPod's front-panel controls, and
> >force you to use the Sony Head-Unit's controls and display to navigate
> the
> >iPod (and we all know you can't read the C90's display before 8PM if your
> >life depended on it), so I'd prefer to control the iPod from the iPod's
> >front-panel click-wheel (this rules out the Unilink-to-iPod "Control"
> type
> >interfaces IIRC). Is this correct?
>
> Yes it is correct. This is a limitation that is part of the design of the
> iPod. There are two remote modes available for the iPod. Simple and
> Full.
> Full remote mode is required for text/track data/time transfer but using
> full remote mode disables the iPod's main unit controls. Simple remote
> mode
> on the other hand can interface the iPod for simple things like track
> up/down, play, pause, etc. but in this mode data cannot be transferred
> from
> the iPod to the controlling device; however in simple remote mode the
> iPod's
> controls and display remain active. So it's either/or, you can't have
> both.
>
> >I also have a CDX-805 and a CDX-848x 10-Disc Unilink Changer I'd be
> willing
> >to bastardize for this project, but other means are preferred before I
> kill
> >a perfectly fine Unilink CD Changer (and I'd need specific instructions
> >before I attempt this)...
>
> Why kill one of them??? Just set the changer to analog, put any CD you
> don't need in there and put it on repeat all... Instead of connecting the
> changer line audio output to the XDP, just connect the iPod's line-level
> output and there you go--that's the "changer trick" in a nutshell.
>
> >One more Q concerning the iPod - I bought an "iPod Dock Cable" that has
> RCA
> >Outs and connections for +12V for charging the iPod's battery. The
> >benefits
> >over a 1/8" Headphone Cable are that it bypasses the iPod's Headphone
> >Amplifier Stage, and provides a true Fixed Level "Line Out" (volume
> >independent), plus facilities for charging the iPod from the Vehicle's
> >electrical system. The drawback is I get odd noise from the iPod when it
> >is
> >charging (ground loops / differences in ground potential causing noise to
> >get carried over the audio shields).
>
> Though it may just be a poorly designed/cheaply made adapter, I'm thinking
> from this that you may actually have a ground loop problem somewhere else
> in
> the system that is causing all these anomolies to occur, as I mentioned
> above. I would definitely be sure you don't have one before condemning
> components.
>
> Roland M.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
>
--
Randy V.
Houston, TX
Audio-Dude/Musician/Crazy Guy
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